| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
I would have written, but instead i just ranted for 25 minutes. hope everyone finds this useful because i'm right [edit] reuploaded [edit2] Audio can be found in my podcast compilation thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
| ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
| ||
RaGe
Belgium9947 Posts
| ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
| ||
|
Saracen
United States5139 Posts
you sound unhappy  | ||
|
grobo
Japan6199 Posts
| ||
|
Braintricks
137 Posts
| ||
|
DanceCommander
United States1808 Posts
awesome audio man | ||
|
raiame
United States421 Posts
| ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
| ||
|
GrimAngel
United States416 Posts
| ||
|
sixghost
United States2096 Posts
| ||
|
EsX_Raptor
United States2802 Posts
we should all start doing crap like this instead of writing! | ||
|
Camlito
Australia4040 Posts
"and because vultures are so fucking obnoxious" | ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
I'm not so huge a fan of mass guardians though, I don't use them against the army so much as the expos... because if he can't have his goliathes in more than one place, so you can wipe out scvs and any few goliathes that come to defend. But my ground army is usually kaput at that point, so a frontal attack isn't that smart... just need to buy time to rebuild the army and crush the main mech force. | ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
 Too bad you just helped exactly every one of my opponents. Btw you talk just like Dr Cox in Scrubs. ![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/73/Drcox_scrubs.jpg/200px-Drcox_scrubs.jpg) | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Wait, I play terran. Nooooooooooooooooooooo  | ||
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
Hey everyone! This is Day[9], and I'm going to talk a little bit about defeating a Terran mech as a zerg player. So ever since Fantasy did his cute mech shit against GGplay, all anyone wants to do is mech. And that's fine; mech's cool; it's the current trend of the moment; it was never weak or strong. It's just an alternative type of play. But the problem is that when I read the strategy forum or even watch the professionals play, I want to vomit. I feel like so much of the advice and the current ideas of how to play against mech is just totally wrong. Now, I'm a little unusual in that I've been around forever. I've been playing competitively for 10 years. There was a period way back when when mech was just as popular as it is now. That gave me the opportunity to spend a lot of time practicing against and thinking about the dynamics of mech play. So I want to share a little bit with you guys about my experience against mech and what I feel is the correct way to think about and counteract a good Terran mech player. So first, let's talk about the strengths and weaknesses of a mech build, then let's analyse what's wrong with current thought and play, and then I'll give some more concrete tips at the end and even a loose build that you guys can play around with. So, let's dive right in and talk about the three major strengths and weaknesses of mech, in my opinion. Number 1: mech is good with big, one-punch-style pushes. Number two: mech is great at holding territory and playing defensively. Number three: mech is great at fucking with the Zerg early game. Let's go ahead and talk about those three concepts in depth. First, I'll talk about this one-punch style army concept that I mentioned. This idea is that in small numbers, Zerg has an advantage over a mech army. In medium sized armies they're fairly even. But once you start talking about big, large armies, the mech army is way better than whatever Zerg can throw at it. So, the way this manifests itself in games is that Terrans will much often favor a timing push that is significantly later in the game, because early-game pushes are just so dangerous. In fact, it's often a bad idea to be very aggressive early on as a meching Terran player. Number two: holding territory and playing defensively. With seige tanks and mines and goliaths, you can set yourself up and plant yourself and be almost inpenatrable. Two great examples of this are Mind vs s2 on the Dec. 15th proleague, which is a great example of the way mech can "hold the line" in a way that MnM can't. Another good example is Flash vs Savior on Baekmagoji. Flash just had so much stuff that when Savior attacked with infinity Ultralisks, they evaporated immediately and Flash was just sitting there pumping his fist like a 15 year old. The third thing is that mech is very good at screwing with the zerg early on. This is because they don't need that barracks, so they can do things like proxy barracks openings that don't really screw with the later stages of their mech build, and because vultures are so fucking obnoxious. They plant mines and dart around and kill drones, and whatnot. So yeah, that is what a mech army is good at, and I'll constantly be coming back and referring to these things throughout this rant...thing. Now let's talk about what mech is bad at. In order, the three weaknesses that mech has (in my opinion) are thus: one, mech has a huge problem with mobility; two, mech is not very good with applying pressure throughout the game; three, mech play has a weak mid-game (sort of an extension of the first two weaknesses). I'll talk about those in depth. About mobility. Terran players often need to plant mines, but even if the Terran player isn't making many vultures, his tanks need to be seiged to maximize damage. So it's very difficult for a meched Terran to dart this way and that in the fashion that MnM does. And again (this is sort of an extention of the big push notion) the Terran can't really do these ninja-like things where it breaks its army into small pieces and splits up, because in small numbers, zerg is better against small groups of mech. So, Terran players suffer from a huge lack of mobility. The second thing is the applying of pressure. Same thing: the Terran cannot break his army up and do dicotymous things, so the way mech players win is by doing huge pushes. Yeah, there's vulture harass in the mig-game, but I'll talk abouthow to negate that in a moment. The third thing is the meched Terran's weak mid-game. That is the point in time when a Zerg player really needs to attack. The Terran player must play defensively in the midgame, because it can't push, and if it does vulture harass, it gets completely crushed by hydras. This is the point where Zerg can take a lot of expansions and win economically. So, to recap, a meching Terran is very slow, but extremely strong. So the Zerg player cannot win by being cute. The Zerg player can't win with three lurkers and a dark swarm and feel clever. The Zerg player needs to win by having a lot of shit. And the way the Zerg does that is by creating a powerful economy by exploiting the Terran's midgame immobility. Now, before I talk about good ways to deal with mech, I have to point out what is so bad about current theory and practice against mech. I can sum it up with the following: people play against mech the same way as they play against a MnM Terran. You just can't so that. For some reason, people think that you play a certain way against Terran, and it doesn't matter what Terran does. But against a meching Terran, you should treat it as a totally different matchup. So let me list some things that are bad that you should not do. And yeah, there are obvious exceptions but on the whole, you should not do the following things. -Don't go for a really fast mutalisk harass. I see a lot of players think they're really clever, getting their 3hatch, their spire, and going to kill a lot of SCVs, but the problem is that that doesn't work against goliaths. Against MnM it's great because the MnM sometimes gets isolated from each other and you can pick some off, and the SCVs can be taken out because the range upgrade is delayed blah blah blah... but goliaths have like infinite range and deal a fuckton of damage against air, so when you run in feeling so fucking clever, you leave with a bunch of dead mutalisks and the rest are red health. And that effectively gives you no advantage. It is very difficult to abuse a meching Terran with really aggressive harass. I mean, if you can pick off an SCV, do it, but don't make the cornerstone of your gameplay about getting an advantage with fast harassment because it will not happen. -Do not rely on lurkers against a meching Terran. Against MnM, lurkers make perfect sense. Six lurkers can kill off like infinity MnM. I mean, you only need two lurkers to defend an entire expansion against Terran in the midgame. And again, a major purpose of lurkers is getting a little bit of map control in the midgame, because he doesn't have mobile detection. Meching players are already immobile in the midgame. They're not trying to attack in the midgame. They're going to wait until the later stages of the game where not only will they have detection, but they'll have an army that will completely kill the shit out of your lurkers. They'll have tanks and goliaths, which take many hits from lurkers and have very long range. So the fact that the lurker attack stacks is completely meaningless. In fact, if you do the math, you'll find that lurkers are extremely cost-ineffective at killing tanks, when compared to zerglings etc. -Do not rely on defilers to beat a mech player. Now, this argument is a little tricky, but it's absolutely crucial that you understand this, or else your play against meched Terran will be crippled. Let's think about defilers against MnM. Defilers make perfect sense, because your lurkers that were oh-so-good in the midgame are now in serious danger from vessels and tanks. But hey, don't worry, you can throw down some dark swarms, and now you're totally safe against the MnM army. Now, against mech, it's not that defilers are bad, it's that defilers are significantly worse against mech when compared to MnM. Picture yourself getting ready to attack a mech army. It's spread out with tanks. The units are physically big, so even when they're as clustered as they can be, they're still fairly spread out. When the Terran has all his tanks seiged, and occasionally he'll have mines there too, your army will be eaten alive by the tanks, even in dark swarm, by the splash damage. You're dealing with 15-25 tanks against mech. You're not dealing with the 3-5 tanks you usually see against MnM. So, you just need to have a lot of units. You can't rely on the dark swarm. It is good, it might be the thing that tips the balance in your favor in a big battle, but you can't lock yourself into that mindset of "OK, I have my Hive, I need to get my defilers so that I can stay alive." That's the mindset that you have against a MnM player, not the mindset that you should have against a meching Terran player. -Don't build Ultralisks. Ultralisks are great against MnM because the Ultra armor is so high that MnM shots barely do anything. The problem is against mech, it is the exact opposite. Ultralisks maximize the damage that a tank does. When a tank fires at a zergling, it can do at most 35 damage, because a zergling has 35 life. Against an Ultra, the tank does the full 70 damage, not including upgrades. When you throw splash damage and mines in there, Ultras get EATEN ALIVE by a mech army. For an example, watch the second Youtube video. You will laugh at how many Ultralisks Savior lost at the end of that game. Now I actually did a calculation on this, about Ultraling against mech. It's shocking how ineffective Ultraling is against mech in terms of damage taken vs damage dealt. A much better spending of your money is on simple ground units, like zerglings and hydralisks. Those are going to be the core of your army, because again, against mech, you're not trying to make a "cute" army, with defilers and lurkers and Ultralisks. You just want an army that is a lot of shit. Part of the reason I think Ultraling is so popular is that players will develop an enormous economic advantage in the midgame, correctly so, and at that point it hardly matters what the Zerg does in terms of unit combination. Ultraling is simply the combo that the Zerg happens to use, so he incorrectly learns that it is the correct counter, when it is in fact not. Again, all of what I've been talking about with the "MnM mindset" is just a more complicated way of saying that the Zerg is not taking advantage of the fundamental weaknesses of a meching Terran. And that is the midgame immobility. The Zerg player needs to establish an extremely strong economy then, and then crush the Terran in the later stages of the game, when the Terran is trying to do that big, one-punch push. OK, great. Now that I've said all that stuff, I want to give a few tips on how to deal with a meching player, and then I'll finish things up with a build that I've done that's extremely effective, and you guys can play around with it. It's just a good solid base. -Hydraling should be the bulk of your army. It minimizes the amount of damage that your army is taking, while maximizing the damage output that your army is doing. In addition, you should be making mutas all game long as an important component of your army. Mutas are not going to be used for harassment, it's just key to make sure that the Terran player is continuing to make lots of Goliaths, and when you expand as much as you will be doing, you can build a LOT of mutas anyway. You'll have 2 control groups of mutalisks in addition to your big-ass ground army. -When you get that Hive tech up, an excellent method for busting a stationary push, or a Terran line that's just sitting there defending a whole bunch of expansions, a great way to bust that is to get a whole bunch of guardians. You can get like 15-20 guardians without much difficulty. Because again, you're delaying your hive tech by deciding to expand much more in the midgame. So by the time you get Hive, you have a really strong economy, and a whole bunch of mutas. Guardians have the same range as goliaths and they can break the tank lines really well for your ground army. -Defilers should be the latest evolution of your play. They should be the last thing you transition to and incorperate into your army, because just having the huge army and the expansions is the most important thing. Once you get a defiler it will always help your army SOME but you want to always make sure your army is substantial enough. -DON'T BUILD ULTRAS unless you feel very comfortable with using them. Ultras are very technical and difficult to use in ZvT mech. -The most important tip that I can give against a meching player is that minerals are more important than gas. When you get an expo, don't make that first drone make a geyser. The bulk of your army is going to be lings, hydras, and mutas, and you're going to be expanding lots and lot. Minerals are critical for pretty much everything you want to do. A great thing about minerals being the resource you need is that you can take min-only expos that most players seem not to consider taking when fighting mech. Let me finish things up with a really strong build order that's given me a lot of success through the years. I'm done transcribing, could someone finish this up for me? + Show Spoiler + Here's the gist of the BO: go 12 hatch, scout the fast gas, build some hydras for defense against vult harass, get speed for hydras before lair, cluster your overlords so you can defend against 2 port wraith but still can move out and start spotting for mines, and then get lair before ling speed. Send ovies to places you want to expand. Get a spire. Power drone. Get mutas to delay the Terran's push. Get in the Terran's face and make him make goliaths, but don't be too aggressive. Start massing mutahydraling. Expand like crazzzy. You can have total map control and a huge economy while you still have a lair. Get hive (eventually), get guardians, get glands ASAP. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
| ||
|
Ideas
United States8136 Posts
And do you recommend double spire for upgrades? | ||
|
Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
| ||
|
CDRdude
United States5625 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=85438 | ||
|
Not_Computer
Canada2277 Posts
And what's that tapping noise and rustling noise? Rustling notes and tapping pens? Oh yeah, what about queens? | ||
|
selboN
United States2523 Posts
| ||
|
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On January 07 2009 09:15 motbob wrote: Nice. I'll continue it for a bit:Well, I'll get started transcribing it. Hey everyone! This is Day[9], and I'm going to talk a little bit about defeating a Terran mech as a zerg player. So ever since Fantasy did his cute mech shit against GGplay, all anyone wants to do is mech. And that's fine; mech's cool; it's the current trend of the moment; it was never weak or strong. It's just an alternative type of play. But the problem is that when I read the strategy forum or even watch the professionals play, I want to vomit. I feel like so much of the advice and the current ideas of how to play against mech is just totally wrong. Now, I'm a little unusual in that I've been around forever. I've been playing competitively for 10 years. There was a period way back when when mech was just as popular as it is now. That gave me the opportunity to spend a lot of time practicing against and thinking about the dynamics of mech play. So I want to share a little bit with you guys about my experience against mech and what I feel is the correct way to think about and counteract a good Terran mech player. So first, let's talk about the strengths and weaknesses of a mech build, then let's analyse what's wrong with current thought and play, and then I'll give some more concrete tips at the end and even a loose build that you guys can play around with. So, let's dive right in and talk about the three major strengths and weaknesses of mech, in my opinion. Number 1: mech is good with big, one-punch-style pushes. Number two: mech is great at holding territory and playing defensively. Number three: mech is great at fucking with the Zerg early game. Let's go ahead and talk about those three concepts in depth. First, I'll talk about this one-punch style army concept that I mentioned. This idea is that in small numbers, Zerg has an advantage over a mech army. In medium sized armies they're fairly even. But once you start talking about big, large armies, the mech army is way better than whatever Zerg can throw at it. So, the way this manifests itself in games is that Terrans will much often favor a timing push that is significantly later in the game, because early-game pushes are just so dangerous. In fact, it's often a bad idea to be very aggressive early on as a meching Terran player. Number two: holding territory and playing defensively. With seige tanks and mines and goliaths, you can set yourself up and plant yourself and be almost inpenatrable. Two great examples of this are Mind vs s2 on the Dec. 15th proleague, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8jGdErPrY8 which is a great example of the way mech can "hold the line" in a way that MnM can't. Another good example is Flash vs Savior on Baekmagoji. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW2h23lUisY&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/7760_Flash_vs_sAviOr/vod Flash just had so much stuff that when Savior attacked with infinity Ultralisks, they evaporated immediately and Flash was just sitting there pumping his fist like a 15 year old. The third thing is that mech is very good at screwing with the zerg early on. This is because they don't need that barracks, so they can do things like proxy barracks openings that don't really screw with the later stages of their mech build, and because vultures are so fucking obnoxious. They plant mines and dart around and kill drones, and whatnot. So yeah, that is what a mech army is good at, and I'll constantly be coming back and referring to these things throughout this rant...thing. Now let's talk about what mech is bad at. In order, the three weaknesses that mech has (in my opinion) are thus: one, mech has a huge problem with mobility; two, mech is not very good with applying pressure throughout the game; three, mech play has a weak mid-game (sort of an extension of the first two weaknesses). I'll talk about those in depth. About mobility. Terran players often need to plant mines, but even if the Terran player isn't making many vultures, his tanks need to be seiged to maximize damage. So it's very difficult for a meched Terran to dart this way and that in the fashion that MnM does. And again (this is sort of an extention of the big push notion) the Terran can't really do these ninja-like things where it breaks its army into small pieces and splits up, because in small numbers, zerg is better against small groups of mech. So, Terran players suffer from a huge lack of mobility. The second thing is the applying of pressure. Same thing: the Terran cannot break his army up and do dicotymous things, so the way mech players win is by doing huge pushes. Yeah, there's vulture harass in the mig-game, but I'll talk abouthow to negate that in a moment. The third thing is the meched Terran's weak mid-game. That is the point in time when a Zerg player really needs to attack. The Terran player must play defensively in the midgame, because it can't push, and if it does vulture harass, it gets completely crushed by hydras. This is the point where Zerg can take a lot of expansions and win economically. So, to recap, a meching Terran is very slow, but extremely strong. So the Zerg player cannot win by being cute. The Zerg player can't win with three lurkers and a dark swarm and feel clever. The Zerg player needs to win by having a lot of shit. And the way the Zerg does that is by creating a powerful economy by exploiting the Terran's midgame immobility. Now, before I talk about good ways to deal with mech, I have to point out what is so bad about current theory and practice against mech. I can sum it up with the following: people play against mech the same way as they play against a MnM Terran. You just can't so that. For some reason, people think that you play a certain way against Terran, and it doesn't matter what Terran does. But against a meching Terran, you should treat it as a totally different matchup. So let me list some things that are bad that you should not do. And yeah, there are obvious exceptions but on the whole, you should not do the following things. -Don't go for a really fast mutalisk harass. I see a lot of players think they're really clever, getting their 3hatch, their spire, and going to kill a lot of SCVs, but the problem is that that doesn't work against goliaths. Against MnM it's great because the MnM sometimes gets isolated from each other and you can pick some off, and the SCVs can be taken out because the range upgrade is delayed blah blah blah... but goliaths have like infinite range and deal a fuckton of damage against air, so when you run in feeling so fucking clever, you leave with a bunch of dead mutalisks and the rest are red health. And that effectively gives you no advantage. It is very difficult to abuse a meching Terran with really aggressive harass. I mean, if you can pick off an SCV, do it, but don't make the cornerstone of your gameplay about getting an advantage with fast harassment because it will not happen. -Do not rely on lurkers against a meching Terran. Against MnM, lurkers make perfect sense. Six lurkers can kill off like infinity MnM. I mean, you only need two lurkers to defend an entire expansion against Terran in the midgame. And again, a major purpose of lurkers is getting a little bit of map control in the midgame, because he doesn't have mobile detection. Meching players are already immobile in the midgame. They're not trying to attack in the midgame. They're going to wait until the later stages of the game where not only will they have detection, but they'll have an army that will completely kill the shit out of your lurkers. They'll have tanks and goliaths, which take many hits from lurkers and have very long range. So the fact that the lurker attack stacks is completely meaningless. In fact, if you do the math, you'll find that lurkers are extremely cost-ineffective at killing tanks, when compared to zerglings etc. -Do not rely on defilers to beat a mech player. Now, this argument is a little tricky, but it's absolutely crucial that you understand this, or else your play against meched Terran will be crippled. Let's think about defilers against MnM. Defilers make perfect sense, because your lurkers that were oh-so-good in the midgame are now in serious danger from vessels and tanks. But hey, don't worry, you can throw down some dark swarms, and now you're totally safe against the MnM army. Now, against mech, it's not that defilers are bad, it's that defilers are significantly worse against mech when compared to MnM. Picture yourself getting ready to attack a mech army. It's spread out with tanks. The units are physically big, so even when they're as clustered as they can be, they're still fairly spread out. When the Terran has all his tanks seiged, and occasionally he'll have mines there too, your army will be eaten alive by the tanks, even in dark swarm, by the splash damage. You're dealing with 15-25 tanks against mech. You're not dealing with the 3-5 tanks you usually see against MnM. So, you just need to have a lot of units. You can't rely on the dark swarm. It is good, it might be the thing that tips the balance in your favor in a big battle, but you can't lock yourself into that mindset of "OK, I have my Hive, I need to get my defilers so that I can stay alive." That's the mindset that you have against a MnM player, not the mindset that you should have against a meching Terran player. -Don't build Ultralisks. Ultralisks are great against MnM because the Ultra armor is so high that MnM shots barely do anything. The problem is against mech, it is the exact opposite. Ultralisks maximize the damage that a tank does. When a tank fires at a zergling, it can do at most 35 damage, because a zergling has 35 life. Against an Ultra, the tank does the full 70 damage, not including upgrades. When you throw splash damage and mines in there, Ultras get EATEN A-L-LIVE by a mech army. For an example, watch the second Youtube video. You will laugh at how many Ultralisks Savior lost at the end of that game. Now I actually did a calculation on this, about Ultraling against mech. It's shocking how ineffective Ultraling is against mech in terms of damage taken vs damage dealt. A much better spending of your money is on simple ground units, like zerglings and hydralisks. Those are going to be the core of your army, because again, against mech, you're not trying to make a "cute" army, with defilers and lurkers and Ultralisks. You just want an army that is a lot of shit. to be continued... And part of the reason, I think, that ultralisk/zergling is so popular is that players will develop an enormous economic advantage in the midgame--correctly so--and at that point, it hardly matters what the Zerg does in terms of unit combination. Ultralisk/ling just happens to be what the player does to win, so he incorrectly learns that ultralisk/ling is the proper counter, when it is in fact not. Again, all of what I've been talking about: this whole medic/marine mindset: it's all just ways of saying that the Zerg is not taking advantage of the fundamental weakness of a meching player, and that is the midgame immobility. A Zerg player needs to establish an extremely strong economy then, and then crush the Terran in the later stages of the game, when Terran is trying to do that big one-punch push. OK, great. Now that I've said all that stuff, I want to give a few general tips of how to deal with a meching player, and then I'll finish things up with a build that I've done that's extremely effective, and you guys can play around with it and do whatever. It's just a good solid base:
So let me finish things up with a really strong build-order that's brought me a huge amount of success through the years. I don't know if people think about builds the same way I do, so hopefully I make sense....But on the same note, I'm trying to make a video series about how to construct a build from scratch, and please keep pressuring me to work on that, 'cause i need motivation. So yeah, here's my build: So, as a Zerg player, you 12-hatch at your expansion, you open completely normally, and your basic opening is just the 3-hatch opening. Now, if your opponent bunker-rushes, you just need to be able to deal with that. You should also be checking up on your Terran, because there's three basic things that a terran can do early on: Going 2 barracks, early expanding, and then getting fast gas. You need to find out pretty early on if he's going fast gas, because that's where the deviation occurs. You start off with the 3-hatch, because if he's going medic/marine you deal with that accordingly, and if you see him going mech, you veer off into the build that I'm going to say right now. So if he's going a fast gas, the things that we need to worry about are:
This is the build I recommend: You gas on 18 (and you have 3 hatches at this point). You gas on 18, making overlords at the appropriate times. With your first 50 gas you get a hydralisk den, before your lair. And then you get speed for hydralisks, before your lair. And you're going to be making between 6 and 10 hydralisks. And you're also going to be getting your second gas at an appropriate time: not too fast, but when you fiddle with this build you'll feel about when it feels right. And also, have your overlords clustered in your base, in a way that your hydralisks are ready to defend against 2-port wraith, but also so that those overlords are ready to start wandering out into the middle of the map, because you need them as spotters against mines. OK, great. The reason this build is doing so well for us right now is we have negated those three big things (the 1-factory harass, 2-factory harass, and the 2-port wraith), and for everything else Terran does, we're still OK. "Anything else Terran does" is like a fast dropship, or some sort of fast-academy build, and when we have speed-hydralisks we can still deal with that, because they don't have tons of medic/marine. In other words, we're not dead yet. There's nothing that we're facing that has killed us or has some sort of huge advantage. I'm not going to talk about how to deal with 2-port wraith, because, again, the focus of this is dealing with mech. I'm just saying those initial variations to let you know that you are still OK against those things with this opening. Now, at this point, you'll be fairly certain that your opponent is doing some type of mech build: he's planted mines in the middle of the map, say, you've--I mean, if he went 2-factory aggressive, you see a lot of mech units, and at this point, Terran is focusing on trying to get that expansion up. As a sample map, let's say we're playing on Destination and we are at the north position. We have those overlords at our natural, ready to slide to the right expansion and ready to slide out our front ramps to spot those mines. Now, in this build, we've made 6-8 hydralisks. We have speed. Do not get range with the next 150 gas. Get a lair, and start planning on expanding. Your whole goal for the midgame is to have 4 or 5 hydras move out to an expansion and just sit to defend, you'll have another 4 or 5 hydralisks at your front and in your main, to just sit and defend, and then you're going to start expanding while getting mutalisks at the same time, and--and this is really key--and sending overlords to locations where you want to expand, because you need to clear out those mines. Now, when that lair finishes, we're going to be going for a spire, and at this point, you're wondering: we're going for a spire and we have like 8-10 hydralisks, or whatever: what do we do with the rest of our larvae? Well you're powering drones like crazy. Because you're not worried about an early Terran push: he can't really push aggressively early on. So you're making tons of drones, you're taking one expansion at the right that's defended by those hydralisks, and you're on your way to getting mutalisks. When those mutalisks pop out, they're great because they force the Terran to delay his push a little bit, which extends the Zerg's midgame advantage. Those mutalisks pop out, the Terran has to stop making tanks, stop making vultures, and begin pumping out goliaths. Now, you don't want to do aggressive harass, but you want to be in his face just enough to let him know that you have a lot of mutalisks. You only need to make like 9-12 at this point, and at this point you can start expanding to the top-right natural and the left natural, and you've already been making a whole ton drones and expanding a lot, and you can begin throwing down more hatcheries and some evolution chambers. And at this point you just start making tons of zerglings and hydralisks, favoring hydralisks, initially: don't start making a lot of zerglings early on, because that's a little weak. You want to start with a lot of hydralisks, and then you can add on zerglings and hatcheries at the same time. And what ends up happening is, as the midgame progresses, he's forced to delay his push, and when he does come out, you have an absurd number of expansions: you have your main, your nat, the right natural, the left natural, and the top-right corner. And you can back-upgrade: you can get the hydralisk range, the metabolic boost for zerglings, and overlord sight-range, if you want, and just begin spreading around the map, and you will be surprised at how easy it is to have total map-control and a raging economy--and you still have a lair. You can start teching towards that queen's nest after a little bit, but again, the emphasis of your play is going to be adding hatcheries, both as production units and at expansions, and then, for the rest of the game, you'll just have this amazing advantage. Now, against a really good player, it's going to be difficult to make that advantage very large, so I do need to talk a little bit about later-game transitioning. As you get your hive up, it's a great idea to get guardians, but really the most important upgrade for hive is the adrenal boost for the zerglings, 'cause now you have a bunch of cracklings that are really cheap, in absurd numbers, against lots of tanks, lots of goliaths (because you've still been making those mutalisks), and a handful of vultures. (The mutalisks actually help to cut down on the vulture count tremendously, so that's really great.) So yeah, and the rest of the game is fairly straightforward. If you're having a lot of trouble in the later stages of the game, it's a good sign that you did something wrong in the midgame, or that you're going ultralisk/zergling, which I told you not to do .So, yeah...I hope that this rambling was useful to some people because I would have made a post, but I don't like writing as much as I like hearing myself talk . So, yeah....Merry Christmas, Team Liquid. Cheers!THE END Edit: haha, crossposted with motbob: while I was typing all this, he was editing his post with the exact same thing. When he gets to where I stopped, he asks for someone to take over. Ah well, I'll type the rest now... done | ||
|
flammie
61 Posts
Edit: It was Bacchus OSL Ro8, game 3. Jaedong went 5 base mass muta/guard/hydra, not ling/guard/hydra. | ||
|
TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
On January 07 2009 11:49 flammie wrote: Didn't Jaedong try this against Flash around 9 months ago in the Gom Invitational? From what I remember, he got like 6 expansions on Katrina, made a ton of guardians, hydras, and lings and still got crushed by the 1st push. Edit: It was Bacchus OSL Ro8, game 3. Jaedong went 5 base mass muta/guard/hydra, not ling/guard/hydra. That was the game that made me start thinking mech is horribly overpowered. | ||
|
Maxee
Argentina12 Posts
 | ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
No more freewin Mech TvZ | ||
|
Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
| ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
| ||
MrHoon
10183 Posts
On January 07 2009 11:49 flammie wrote: Didn't Jaedong try this against Flash around 9 months ago in the Gom Invitational? From what I remember, he got like 6 expansions on Katrina, made a ton of guardians, hydras, and lings and still got crushed by the 1st push. Edit: It was Bacchus OSL Ro8, game 3. Jaedong went 5 base mass muta/guard/hydra, not ling/guard/hydra. the thing was JD + his coach did an interview of that Jaedong said during that interview "I got too over the top and thought to myself 'oh i can totally destroy his army' and just sent everything I had. It was a bad mistake" | ||
|
selboN
United States2523 Posts
On January 07 2009 11:31 qrs wrote: Nice. I'll continue it for a bit: And part of the reason, I think, that ultralisk/zergling is so popular is that players will develop an enormous economic advantage in the midgame--correctly so--and at that point, it hardly matters what the Zerg does in terms of unit combination. Ultralisk/ling just happens to be what the player does to win, so he incorrectly learns that ultralisk/ling is the proper counter, when it is in fact not. Again, all of what I've been talking about: this whole medic/marine mindset: it's all just ways of saying that the Zerg is not taking advantage of the fundamental weakness of a meching player, and that is the midgame immobility. A Zerg player needs to establish an extremely strong economy then, and then crush the Terran in the later stages of the game, when Terran is trying to do that big one-punch push. OK, great. Now that I've said all that stuff, I want to give a few general tips of how to deal with a meching player, and then I'll finish things up with a build that I've done that's extremely effective, and you guys can play around with it and do whatever. It's just a good solid base:
So let me finish things up with a really strong build-order that's brought me a huge amount of success through the years. I don't know if people think about builds the same way I do, so hopefully I make sense....But on the same note, I'm trying to make a video series about how to construct a build from scratch, and please keep pressuring me to work on that, 'cause i need motivation. So yeah, here's my build: So, as a Zerg player, you 12-hatch at your expansion, you open completely normally, and your basic opening is just the 3-hatch opening. Now, if your opponent bunker-rushes, you just need to be able to deal with that. You should also be checking up on your Terran, because there's three basic things that a terran can do early on: Going 2 barracks, early expanding, and then getting fast gas. You need to find out pretty early on if he's going fast gas, because that's where the deviation occurs. You start off with the 3-hatch, because if he's going medic/marine you deal with that accordingly, and if you see him going mech, you veer off into the build that I'm going to say right now. So if he's going a fast gas, the things that we need to worry about are:
This is the build I recommend: You gas on 18 (and you have 3 hatches at this point). You gas on 18, making overlords at the appropriate times. With your first 50 gas you get a hydralisk den, before your lair. And then you get speed for hydralisks, before your lair. And you're going to be making between 6 and 10 hydralisks. And you're also going to be getting your second gas at an appropriate time: not too fast, but when you fiddle with this build you'll feel about when it feels right. And also, have your overlords clustered in your base, in a way that your hydralisks are ready to defend against 2-port wraith, but also so that those overlords are ready to start wandering out into the middle of the map, because you need them as spotters against mines. OK, great. The reason this build is doing so well for us right now is we have negated those three big things (the 1-factory harass, 2-factory harass, and the 2-port wraith), and for everything else Terran does, we're still OK. "Anything else Terran does" is like a fast dropship, or some sort of fast-academy build, and when we have speed-hydralisks we can still deal with that, because they don't have tons of medic/marine. In other words, we're not dead yet. There's nothing that we're facing that has killed us or has some sort of huge advantage. I'm not going to talk about how to deal with 2-port wraith, because, again, the focus of this is dealing with mech. I'm just saying those initial variations to let you know that you are still OK against those things with this opening. Now, at this point, you'll be fairly certain that your opponent is doing some type of mech build: he's planted mines in the middle of the map, say, you've--I mean, if he went 2-factory aggressive, you see a lot of mech units, and at this point, Terran is focusing on trying to get that expansion up. As a sample map, let's say we're playing on Destination and we are at the north position. We have those overlords at our natural, ready to slide to the right expansion and ready to slide out our front ramps to spot those mines. Now, in this build, we've made 6-8 hydralisks. We have speed. Do not get range with the next 150 gas. Get a lair, and start planning on expanding. Your whole goal for the midgame is to have 4 or 5 hydras move out to an expansion and just sit to defend, you'll have another 4 or 5 hydralisks at your front and in your main, to just sit and defend, and then you're going to start expanding while getting mutalisks at the same time, and--and this is really key--and sending overlords to locations where you want to expand, because you need to clear out those mines. Now, when that lair finishes, we're going to be going for a spire, and at this point, you're wondering: we're going for a spire and we have like 8-10 hydralisks, or whatever: what do we do with the rest of our larvae? Well you're powering drones like crazy. Because you're not worried about an early Terran push: he can't really push aggressively early on. So you're making tons of drones, you're taking one expansion at the right that's defended by those hydralisks, and you're on your way to getting mutalisks. When those mutalisks pop out, they're great because they force the Terran to delay his push a little bit, which extends the Zerg's midgame advantage. Those mutalisks pop out, the Terran has to stop making tanks, stop making vultures, and begin pumping out goliaths. Now, you don't want to do aggressive harass, but you want to be in his face just enough to let him know that you have a lot of mutalisks. You only need to make like 9-12 at this point, and at this point you can start expanding to the top-right natural and the left natural, and you've already been making a whole ton drones and expanding a lot, and you can begin throwing down more hatcheries and some evolution chambers. And at this point you just start making tons of zerglings and hydralisks, favoring hydralisks, initially: don't start making a lot of zerglings early on, because that's a little weak. You want to start with a lot of hydralisks, and then you can add on zerglings and hatcheries at the same time. And what ends up happening is, as the midgame progresses, he's forced to delay his push, and when he does come out, you have an absurd number of expansions: you have your main, your nat, the right natural, the left natural, and the top-right corner. And you can back-upgrade: you can get the hydralisk range, the metabolic boost for zerglings, and overlord sight-range, if you want, and just begin spreading around the map, and you will be surprised at how easy it is to have total map-control and a raging economy--and you still have a lair. You can start teching towards that queen's nest after a little bit, but again, the emphasis of your play is going to be adding hatcheries, both as production units and at expansions, and then, for the rest of the game, you'll just have this amazing advantage. Now, against a really good player, it's going to be difficult to make that advantage very large, so I do need to talk a little bit about later-game transitioning. As you get your hive up, it's a great idea to get guardians, but really the most important upgrade for hive is the adrenal boost for the zerglings, 'cause now you have a bunch of cracklings that are really cheap, in absurd numbers, against lots of tanks, lots of goliaths (because you've still been making those mutalisks), and a handful of vultures. (The mutalisks actually help to cut down on the vulture count tremendously, so that's really great.) So yeah, and the rest of the game is fairly straightforward. If you're having a lot of trouble in the later stages of the game, it's a good sign that you did something wrong in the midgame, or that you're going ultralisk/zergling, which I told you not to do .So, yeah...I hope that this rambling was useful to some people because I would have made a post, but I don't like writing as much as I like hearing myself talk . So, yeah....Merry Christmas, Team Liquid. Cheers!THE END Edit: haha, crossposted with motbob: while I was typing all this, he was editing his post with the exact same thing. When he gets to where I stopped, he asks for someone to take over. Ah well, I'll type the rest now... done You are a fucking baller! I listened to it, but damn.. It was awfully nice of you to type all this out. Thanks a lot! | ||
|
Puremiss
United States232 Posts
| ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Transcribbers you rock also. Day I remember your ZvT vs mech being so sick. I think I have some of your old reps zvt from wgtour on my other harddrive I'll check later!  | ||
|
meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
I have an idea that Zerg should use zerglings in the midgame as minesweepers instead of hydralisks. Just send one zergling at a time around the map to clear the spider mines instead of having the possibility of 5-10 hydralisks exploding to a lucky mine. Guardians should also be used more often in the later stages instead of ultralisks or defilers, as mentioned in the audio. | ||
|
Kami
United States127 Posts
| ||
|
Puremiss
United States232 Posts
| ||
|
sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 07 2009 14:39 meegrean wrote: Thanks for the transcription. I have an idea that Zerg should use zerglings in the midgame as minesweepers instead of hydralisks. Just send one zergling at a time around the map to clear the spider mines instead of having the possibility of 5-10 hydralisks exploding to a lucky mine. Guardians should also be used more often in the later stages instead of ultralisks or defilers, as mentioned in the audio. That's pretty common to use lings in that way. | ||
|
meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
On January 07 2009 15:50 lgdDante wrote: That's pretty common to use lings in that way. Then why do Korean progamers keep losing hydralisks to mines? | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On January 07 2009 16:32 meegrean wrote: Then why do Korean progamers keep losing hydralisks to mines? They just like to hear the commentators go crazy. seriously though, I don't know. Maybe they don't stream lings because the terran will position vultures to stop it from working, if they haven't already, and so they're not going to get anywhere without hydras anyway. Also, doing that is only a one-time cure. Once you place the hatch, it'll get harassed soon enough when the terran realizes there's no more mine there, and if he's smart (like most progamers), he'll have placed new mines in the path. Either way, you're going to need hydras to protect your expo when you get it. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Zergling mine clearing is actually really ineffective and costs not just zergslings(money) but larva (macro) against a super macro playstyle, I use mutas to clear mines unless they are in my way at expos edited for coherance. I wrote this out to quickly. | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On January 07 2009 16:46 AttackZerg wrote: Zergling mine clearly is actually really effective and costs no just zergslings(money) but larva Wow good point. | ||
|
Quesadilla
United States1814 Posts
On January 07 2009 16:37 Dromar wrote: They just like to hear the commentators go crazy. seriously though, I don't know. Maybe they don't stream lings because the terran will position vultures to stop it from working, if they haven't already, and so they're not going to get anywhere without hydras anyway. Also, doing that is only a one-time cure. Once you place the hatch, it'll get harassed soon enough when the terran realizes there's no more mine there, and if he's smart (like most progamers), he'll have placed new mines in the path. Either way, you're going to need hydras to protect your expo when you get it. This is correct. I was talking to Day about this build before he did the recording, bring about 6ish hydras to your expo and make sure you have some at home at your natural. Use your first 2 lords that you were already scouting with to check expos. Don't upgrade ovie speed til after you've expanded a frickload and are using mutas a bit. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? No more freewin Mech TvZ No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that | ||
|
Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
| ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
|
hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
On January 07 2009 08:15 Day[9] wrote: I would have written, but instead i just ranted for 25 minutes. hope everyone finds this useful because i'm right It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think? | ||
|
MrHoon
10183 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 07 2009 20:50 Shikyo wrote: Day 9, would you have anything to say about defending against the "timing push" coming from Terran right as your expansions pop but you don't have any drones on them yet? Are you supposed to have a big enough army to stomp all over it? I for one can't stop it(And seems like many progamers can't either), I wonder if I pump too many drones or if it's my bad micro. After you use hydras to get a third base, your on 3 gas, making 12 mutas to keep them at home isn't too hard. If they have alot of early gols -> sunken/hydra is good, if they have early tank, then they won't have enough gols to defend there main or fight straight up. Do not be scared of sunkens, sometimes 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 of them can do amazing things. | ||
|
CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
PS- Day you didn't say anything about positioning or battling vs mech in that mid/late game. Do you favor hotkeying units groups across the map or do you favor hotkeying more hatches and just powerhousing a more piled group of units? I don't really like guardians ever being used as main army vs terran. A) they will still have vessel and iradiate (maybe less than MnM but at least like 3-4), B) Goliaths do full damage to them and have equal range with a shit ton more speed/attack speed and are cheaper, C) Terrans usually have excess minerals to blow on lotss of turrets which buy time for goliath/vessel (if they don't already have a small group at the expo), C) the extra gas/mins on more mutalisk is better with a hydra/ling army anyways. Why?, because 1) They create a psychological omnious cloud of glaives and just floating over their units so they can't micro hit and run in a battle (you really can't see shit, it's like wc3; you just know you're being overrun and panic as T), 2) They can chase down straggler units or retreating armies, 3) They can scout and kill uprising expos much more effectively, 4) They absorb much more damage than guardians do- this helps your lings and hydras live longer and tanks will start splashing lings closer to goliaths. I'm obviously thinking on terms of more open maps like python. With maps where there are lots of cliffs and tight bases guardians can do better but I still like mutas more. PPS- Ensnare is good later game as well. | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 14:39 meegrean wrote: Thanks for the transcription. I have an idea that Zerg should use zerglings in the midgame as minesweepers instead of hydralisks. Just send one zergling at a time around the map to clear the spider mines instead of having the possibility of 5-10 hydralisks exploding to a lucky mine. Guardians should also be used more often in the later stages instead of ultralisks or defilers, as mentioned in the audio. the error in this logic is that you actually need to clear mines in the midgame. you'll be able to deal w/ mines later w/ overlords and whatnot [edit] i realize i didn't directly address what you said haha. instead i should say "consider the fact that you don't really need to kill off mines early. Sure there are types of play where you'll need to do an early push, in which case you should experiment with lings/overlords to see which you like best." | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote: No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that Care to elaborate? How can current progamers get around the problem of slow mech build ups? It's not like stats changed that much over time. | ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 07 2009 21:10 hymn wrote: It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think? I agree plague is not bad but how would you get of a plague on 5000 tanks and 10000 goliaths? If you engage a mech army it will the THE attack. THE attack which will decide if you lose or win the game. It's not like you can attack, suicide your army, get a few plagues off. The only option would be plaguing during battle but then it wouldnt be as good but stil, it wont be bad. What I'm trying to say you can't get a plague of unless its during that gigantic battle. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 07 2009 22:50 StRyKeR wrote: How can current progamers get around the problem of slow mech build ups? It's not like stats changed that much over time. build ups? i dont understand this.. well basically its a good guide vs the old mechstrats coz they are just like he said. move out with big blob 25tanks(not rly) etc.. But the new mechstrats are not like this. Anyway i don't want to derail this thread, but i really think that looking at what jaedong does for example is a good idea, even if he loses. | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote: No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that you are absolutely totally incorrect i rambled for 25 minutes and gave a loose guide to a potential build build founded on the logic I provided for a specific deviation on an example map. You seem to assume that i completely ignored the possibility of a midgame push. In reality, you can watch the terran closely enough and be prepared by flooding with units right before he attacks (similar to how protoss players stick w/ dragoons and then flood with speedzealots before a terran push). Remember, zerg is much better against mech in small numbers so zerg is unusually flexible against a terran player early on. After holding off such a mid-game push, zerg still needs to focus on an economy. The only difference is the timing. Allow me to provide a brief explanation: Suppose you are vs a meching terran player and we'll arbitrarily label the "midgame" as that period where terran has just gotten 2 bases but not many factories. He's powering up and getting ready to make alot of units. Again, suppose this "midgame" occurs between 8-11 minutes (arbitrary numbers i'm making up on the spot, its probably earlier in reality). In a normal game, zerg plans to use 8-11 minutes as the time to make as many drones/expoes as possible, BUT STILL ENOUGH GROUND UNITS TO NOT DIE TO AN IMMEDIATE PUSH. Typically, no attack occurs in this "midgame" period, and zerg moves through with his plan, getting ready for the "endgame" at 12 minutes (again a totally made up number). HOWEVER, suppose (as you were concerned) the terran player pushes out at 7-8 minutes! Zerg has some ground units and begins to make NOTHING but hydras to hold off the push. Zerg positions his units, surrounds, and kills push. At this point, zerg needs to resume his normal game plan. DOUBLEHOWEVER, since both players made more units than economy early, the "midgame period" now occurs from 10-13 minutes. The key difference between a mediocre player and an excellent player is that excellent players realize this 10-13 midgame is effectively no different from the 8-11 midgame. The gameplan of an expert player can be bent like bamboo, but always straightens back out to his original plan. (Obviously, you will sometimes opt to follow transitions to different types of play. For instance, if terran started going MnM after the 7-8 minute push, zerg would take a drastically different endplan). To claim that the early midgame push "negates the whole theory" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of starcraft strategy beyond a basic level. It is precisely these kinds of self-paralyzing conclusions that cause permanent stagnation of a player's play. The nature of builds is not a "direct guide to follow." Rather, builds are basic gameplans with huge numbers of subtle transitions and variations. I suggest you take the build i outlined, play around with it lots, and find what you like and dislike. You might find that you enjoy lairing before making a den, or that you like getting speed AND range before lair. You might find an excellent purpose for getting overlord speed range very quickly to scout the terran's main in anticipation for that early push (and to help clear mines). I implicitly assume that all players will change my outline drastically to suit their personal preferences. Again, I provided the guide as an example of how to form a concrete gameplan based upon underlying logic. Lastly, I apologize for taking this rant out on you. I have such a pent up frustration with the strategy forums I read everywhere because of the crippling mindset of the forumgoers. It's not that the strategies are wrong, it's that players seem to lock themselves into a self-created cage that will forever prevent them from learning and improving. Before Bisu, forumgoers mocked protosses who made too many corsairs early game. Before Jaedong, forumgoers mocked ZergMan for attempting to use queens vs terran, that queens were a "totally inefficient buy" against zerg. Before Fantasy, forumgoers relentlessly stuck to MnM. In virtually all cases, the unquestioned mockery came from virtually no experience with the unorthodox. It is precisely this type of logic that has motivated me to create an education video series entitled "construction a build," the art of improving and forming solid gameplay on your own. Please pester me to work on this! (and again, apologies to anotherday since he's a nice man who meant no harm w/ a 2 sentence post haha) | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 22:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote: build ups? i dont understand this.. well basically its a good guide vs the old mechstrats coz they are just like he said. move out with big blob 25tanks(not rly) etc.. But the new mechstrats are not like this. Anyway i don't want to derail this thread, but i really think that looking at what jaedong does for example is a good idea, even if he loses. My opinions of mech existed long before Jaedong was ever a household name. The game where jaedong played similarly to how i described was a relief for me to see: a zerg player actually attacking mech at a fundamental level. I'm not so unsophisticated a player that I see what Jaedong does and say "wow, everyone should do that." | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 21:10 hymn wrote: It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think? yes definitely. Again, defilers are great, but shouldn't be thought of as the backbone of your army | ||
|
CTStalker
Canada9720 Posts
star for day9 obv | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
You are correct about the mineral is important and the weaknesses of mechbuilds etc. Its just that its not as simple as that, im not trying to lecture you but maybe some of the other forumusers here. the newschool terran mech is based on forcing zerg to use a low eco. Preassure him early and make him fear an early midgame push, so he cannot make drones. It will be 2 base vs 2base, zerg will keep making units coz he is afraid of terran timing push. If he stops making units and makes a hatchery, terran moves out. Terran can also use his first 2 goliaths to roam across the map killing overlords like flash did vs effort. I also apologized to you if i sounded like that. But i was quoting MeRz statement which probably was sarcastic anyway. I think you are right, zerg need to focus on a different playstyle. Getting hydra first is very good, speed also and adapt to the terran, but i feel as if neither strat will counter one other. Usually nowadays what you will see is a terran army made of 10++ goliaths and 2++ tanks move out. Depending on what the zerg does. | ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:35 AnOth3rDAy wrote: the newschool terran mech is based on forcing zerg to use a low eco. Preassure him early and make him fear an early midgame push, so he cannot make drones. It will be 2 base vs 2base, zerg will keep making units coz he is afraid of terran timing push. If he stops making units and makes a hatchery, terran moves out. yesyesyesyes!!! this is EXACTLY why i flipped out at the absolute genius of the fantasy build. Its a well thought out way to minimize the danger of falling behind economically midgame | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
I just implemented Day's strat and raped someone on Destination. In my favor though, the terrran built a blatant 8-barracks in front of my base so I scouted it and killed the building scv which delayed his bunker rush. Now Day responded pretty well to AnotherDay's post, but yea, you can still do this guide and build up enough to stop a "midgame push". The midgame push is usually not hard to block if you scout it correctly. I think a good strategy is if the terran does a midgame push to wipe out an expo, you should go ahead and wipe out his nat. In my game, the terran does a midgame push and I realize I'm caught out of position and with not many units. So I counter his nat and ALMOST break it. TT 90 hp command center + 15 repairing scvs = wtf. http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/replays/0092 setwetwetT GuNStRyKeRZ.rep Anyway, I really like the build. The key is getting hydras early to defend against vulture raids / harass / preventing expoes and making like 3 rounds of drones = 5 hatcheries x 3 larva x 3 = 45 drones or something like that (although in the future I think I might do 2, if I smell a midgame push like the one in the game). | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:39 Day[9] wrote: yesyesyesyes!!! this is EXACTLY why i flipped out at the absolute genius of the fantasy build. Its a well thought out way to minimize the danger of falling behind economically midgame yes, not only fantasybuild but also the speedvult build. Although its better vs the 2hatch openings. | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10792 Posts
But against Mech? You have to notice what the Terran is aming for. If he's going for the *classic* lategame-Blob or the *new* midgame-Blob (which is nothing different, just smaller). You have no *Hard*-Counter against this like Swarm, Lurkers and Ultras which will save your day. You have to notice if the Terran want's to be fancy with a Vulturedrop/Harrass. You have to notice if the Terran is *early* aggressive which means that you have to get many Hydras early and expand after that first push OR if the Terran is defensive and you have to get your expansions up first and then start the real massing. It's like playing vs a strong Protoss timing push, read it right and you fend this first go off whiteout much of a problem, read it wrong and your in a world of trouble/dead. With the diffrence that you can't hide behind sunkens and Lurkers against Mech. As for copying Jaedong and the likes... Seriously... 95% of the player see Jaedong doing a Mutalisk harrass or whatever and think, wew that rocks... The diffrence? He can pull it off while Mr. AbitAboveAverage will do half the damage at twice the cost. | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
| ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
| ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Now Day responded pretty well to AnotherDay's post, but yea, you can still do this guide and build up enough to stop a "midgame push". The midgame push is usually not hard to block if you scout it correctly i think thats like saying that the ~10 minute blob standard TvZ isnt hard breaking using 3hatch. Neither strat is a direct counter but basically two standard builds won by the better player. I don't know if you guys like that i argue here, admins might get mad at me or soemthing | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 07 2009 23:46 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i think thats like saying that the ~10 minute blod standard TvZ isnt hard breaking using 3hatch. Neither strat is a direct counter but basically two standard builds won by the better player. I don't know if you guys like that i argue here, admins might get mad at me or soemthing Yea, that's more or less what I meant. I think in general ppl will say stuff like "this strat will own" when it really means "it's a good soft counter". | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
As for copying Jaedong and the likes... Seriously... 95% of the player see Jaedong doing a Mutalisk harrass or whatever and think, wew that rocks... The diffrence? He can pull it off while Mr. AbitAboveAverage will do half the damage at twice the cost. but you should watch his games, and other progamers, and figure out the basic concept of their builds. What are they trying to do to counter etc.. it can be very useful. If you can do it or not is ofcourse your problem. If i learn a good terran strat im not going to say its crap just coz its hard to do, i practice it and learn it as good as i can.. Also can't help but to find it rather amusing that you're DAy and im another DAy im the terranDAy !! | ||
|
littlechava
United States7220 Posts
I kinda had most of this stuff in mind before listening, I usually try to go hydra first when I see the terran going mech, but I never really used that early hydra tech successfully because I didn't actually stop and think about a general game plan vs these new mech builds. I would just try to "feel" things out, which most of the time means doing things like getting an early den but only like 3-4 hydras and no upgrades for a faster lair so I can get mutas faster (but they still dont do damage -.- ) Also, if I got to late game I still end up getting ultralisks out of force of habit. Gonna try and commit myself to using this gameplan now :p | ||
|
Velr
Switzerland10792 Posts
But as Chill said: People are too focused on *tricks* while their build orders and macro are their main problems. I mean, Mutacontrol is extremly important... BUT it's a trick, your Muta hit'n'run can be really awesome, but when you completly stop macroing while doing it, it won't do you much good. *Lower* level players should just stop trying it, at least when they want to win and focus on the things that win you 10000 of games (BO, Macro, *basic Micro*, clever flanking/positioning), not on the stuff that wins you 1 out of 10 games. I've got exactly such a friend.. He's horrible, seriously I never saw someone as untalented as him, everyone has completely given up on him because he's just to retarded... He plays Protoss with 1 expansion, 2 gates, 4k Minerals.. We told him a million times times to just put up tons of gates if he's macro is that bad and just focus on his gates, he won't do it (he is playing SC for over a year now)... But this guy can trick a Probe over the Temples at Medusa with the reliabilty of a progamer, his cannon positioning at his fast expansion is absoluetly perfect, his base is perfectly set up, if there is some glitch on a map, he can use it. He watches much progaming, he just takes exactly the wrong informations from it. Seriously, If I want to improve I wouldn't watch Jaedong... I would watch players which are clearly better than me, but aren't playing on a whole other world/level. I mean, what would you get from Jaedongs recent play? Use Queens to counter M&M's? I doubt Queens would be usefull for me or almost anyone ^^. If you want to get better at at something you should not immediatly try to do what the best out there do... Take Tennis, try to play like Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray... You will not achieve much, in fact you will achieve exactly nothing as long as your basics are not really good. You should also not play against players that are WAY better than you, you should play against players that are *better* than you. | ||
|
Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:10 Velr wrote: The builds counters are for sure good to see/know. But as Chill said: People are too focused on *tricks* while their build orders and macro are their main problems. I mean, Mutacontrol is extremly important... BUT it's a trick, your Muta hit'n'run can be really awesome, but when you completly stop macroing while doing it, it won't do you much good. *Lower* level players should just stop trying it, at least when they want to win and focus on the things that win you 10000 of games (BO, Macro, *basic Micro*, clever flanking/positioning), not on the stuff that wins you 1 out of 10 games. I've got exactly such a friend.. He's horrible, seriously I never saw someone as untalented as him, everyone has completely given up on him because he's just to retarded... He plays Protoss with 1 expansion, 2 gates, 4k Minerals.. We told him a million times times to just put up tons of gates if he's macro is that bad and just focus on his gates, he won't do it (he is playing SC for over a year now)... But this guy can trick a Probe over the Temples at Medusa with the reliabilty of a progamer, his cannon positioning at his fast expansion is absoluetly perfect, his base is perfectly set up, if there is some glitch on a map, he can use it. He watches much progaming, he just takes exactly the wrong informations from it. Seriously, If I want to improve I wouldn't watch Jaedong... I would watch players which are clearly better than me, but aren't playing on a whole other world/level. I mean, what would you get from Jaedongs recent play? Use Queens to counter M&M's? I doubt Queens would be usefull for me or almost anyone ^^. If you want to get better at at something you should not immediatly try to do what the best out there do... Take Tennis, try to play like Federer/Nadal/Djokovic/Murray... You will not achieve much, in fact you will achieve exactly nothing as long as your basics are not really good. You should also not play against players that are WAY better than you, you should play against players that are *better* than you. on lower levels muta micro is prety deadly, so even whe you arent macroing too well, and you dont do transiton at all (or myabe nto guards) you can still win the game, because many terrans arent used to agressive muta play. in fact agressive muta play is the most effective tactic i used so far against T. However i suck big time against Terran, but this is something i could use. On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. | ||
|
MrHoon
10183 Posts
Because flash's style = turtle, turtle, turtle, turtle, okay lets move out, ggplay used it against him by going => Expand, Expand, Expand, Expand, okay you die. Also since harassment wasn't going on GGplay went to hive and had 5 gas running without any problems. By the time Flash was leaving, GGplay just ran in with such a large force Flash just fell apart. Even if Flash had better unit placement, he would've just been overrun. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:18 Geo.Rion wrote: on lower levels muta micro is prety deadly, so even whe you arent macroing too well, and you dont do transiton at all (or myabe nto guards) you can still win the game, because many terrans arent used to agressive muta play. in fact agressive muta play is the most effective tactic i used so far against T. However i suck big time against Terran, but this is something i could use. On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. Flash did the old mech BO so GGPlay could take the whole map without being afraid. If you have the whole map and 1000 hatcherys i doubt it will matter what you do... | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On the topic. What about GGplay vs Flash? He stormed Flash with his shitload of ultras. You can say Flash didnt play well enough, he made serious mistake with his unit placement and engaging, but fuck, if Flash screwes it up other screwes it up too, so ultras+crackilings can devastate the terran mech army, just dont send ultras against in position mech juggernaut cuz that wont do shit. Am i wrong? I very well could be, i am a noobie. When you have like 7 bases with 5 gases, it really doesn't matter what you do. In GGplay vs Flash, I think having 200/200 cracklings+hydras+mutas would have been a better combo than ultras. But at that level, ultras are probably much easier to micro and attack-move. If Flash had better positioning with goliaths in front of tanks to act as a shield against ultras, who knows, all the ultras might have exploded and GGplay would have been screwed. Ultras in that game were kind of risky because it relies on very very good flanking (which GGplay accomplished). | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:35 StRyKeR wrote: When you have like 7 bases with 5 gases, it really doesn't matter what you do. In GGplay vs Flash, I think having 200/200 cracklings+hydras+mutas would have been a better combo than ultras. But at that level, ultras are probably much easier to micro and attack-move. If Flash had better positioning with goliaths in front of tanks to act as a shield against ultras, who knows, all the ultras might have exploded and GGplay would have been screwed. Ultras in that game were kind of risky because it relies on very very good flanking (which GGplay accomplished). yes but i think GGPlays plan with the ultralisks was that he used as few hatcheries as possible, only putting them at expantions, making drones nonstop. Thus having few larva (at that specific game) and how do you make a strong army with few larva once u have your economy up? 4su5su6su7su8su GG | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 08 2009 00:38 AnOth3rDAy wrote: yes but i think GGPlays plan with the ultralisks was that he used as few hatcheries as possible, only putting them at expantions, making drones nonstop. Thus having few larva (at that specific game) and how do you make a strong army with few larva once u have your economy up? 4su5su6su7su8su GG Yea that's a good point. Ultras give the best output per larva. | ||
|
DaasEuGen
Germany35 Posts
| ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 08 2009 01:48 DaasEuGen wrote: awesome guide and awesome transcription, it really helps me alot, thank you all very much. just one thing: day, do you have a replay where you use this strategy? I learn the most about a specific strategy if i watch a replay of it and i think alot people feel the same. I played a game on Destination and posted a replay -- it's in this thread somewhere (page 4). | ||
|
Misrah
United States1695 Posts
| ||
|
cyronc
218 Posts
| ||
|
RaGe
Belgium9947 Posts
| ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
| ||
|
Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
| ||
|
Neivler
Norway911 Posts
| ||
|
number1gog
United States1081 Posts
I know in a gas heavy build if you ever get a surplus of minerals to start laying down a couple extra hatches, but since we're talking mineral heavy armies, should I leave a chunk of minerals in the bank in case I need to make eleventy zerglings after a large battle, or just keep spending them as they come in? | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
I tried out the build and it stops Fantasy build opening cold, but this dude followed up with valks so I decided not to make mutas, which kind of screwed my gameplan over. lawlz like his 4 vulture dropship gets owned (so proud, so proud) http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/4422/replays/0102 1a2a3a4a5aT rageFuryZ.rep He promptly walked over me with superior macro, as I had 1k mineral 1k gas and not enough hatcheries I should have made 4 more hatcheries.Anyway, if the guy goes valks (mixes in like 3 to 4, protected by goliaths, included in push) making any mutalisks gets owned. Moreover, it also protects terran from harass, so no turrets need to be built. My analysis tells me though that: 1) Valks take a lot of freaking gas. Therefore he won't have many tanks, as in the replay, he had like 4 or 5 when he pushed out. 2) Valks still delay the terran push as if I had muta harassed, so missing mutas doesn't really mean terran pushes out faster. Solution seems to be: 1) Good scourge micro is needed to snipe valks. 2) The best combination against valk + vulture + gol + tank = swarms of ling + hydra I didn't implement 2) well at all. Had like 1k min 1k gas lying around because I didn't have enough larvae. But any additional suggestions? EDIT: holy fucking shit, I just realized this dude had 451 APM... w t f | ||
|
Tien
Russian Federation4447 Posts
Thanks Day. | ||
|
Ideas
United States8136 Posts
| ||
|
anderoo
Canada1876 Posts
| ||
|
Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
| ||
|
pink)speed
United States12 Posts
| ||
|
Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
And what about upgrades? Since goliaths fire two missiles and valks a bunch the muta armor absorbs more then facing of against marines so should you uppgrade armor? I have learned that mutalisks is the way to go against mech because goliath deals 10 damage to a muta (no grades) and you can make a ton of them preventing the terran from leaving his base and while his stuck make a shitload of hydra/ling just like you described it.. When he moves out with alot of muta killing stuff you are ready Thread with posts similar to my thinking http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=61310 Cost: 250 125 valk Cost 75 25 hydra For every valk you get a 3,3 hydras or 10 zerglings | ||
|
Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On January 08 2009 08:59 pink)speed wrote: lol wrong any 3 base terrran can pump 10 facts and outmarco zerg  | ||
|
Dromar
United States2145 Posts
It sounds like you're advocating 3hatch, but you say to get gas at 18. This leaves us with lots of money. Do we squeeze in a 4th hatch then? edit: I mean, or do we wait a bit and place our 4th hatch at a 3rd base? | ||
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
If you have already played on that level vs mech on the map colosseum or medusa, I'd really like some reps to go with this. Overall you make good points. | ||
|
JMave
Singapore1805 Posts
"Its not that dark swarm is bad.. its SIGNIFICANTLY WOOOORRSSE." I kept smiling throughout the bus ride and I had so many weird stares LOL. | ||
|
OmgIRok
Taiwan2699 Posts
Wow this audio thing is so much better than the written guides.  (written ones are still great) Awaiting more of your audio commentary! XD | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 08 2009 09:44 ret wrote: Day, theory is nice, but I think you should play some B korean terrans who mech against you on colosseum. If you need a B iccup account to play on and are interested in putting your theory to the test on a high level, feel free to msg me. If you have already played on that level vs mech on the map colosseum or medusa, I'd really like some reps to go with this. Overall you make good points. Ret, let me use one. I'm already puting it to the test on a reset account. | ||
|
Highways
Australia6104 Posts
Would be nice to see a rep of it in action | ||
|
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
there's a rep of me trying to do it sort of... | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
| ||
|
TheTruthTeller
United States15 Posts
| ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
| ||
|
Pyro]v[aniac
United States147 Posts
ty | ||
|
TheTruthTeller
United States15 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 09 2009 16:39 TheTruthTeller wrote: please show some respect to Naruto and Ret's intelligence. Do you think they would have consciously downloaded patch 1.16? hehe | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 09 2009 12:43 ret wrote: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7039&key=52d31f there's a rep of me trying to do it sort of... This replay is vs the oldest/weakest/easiest form of mech. No vultures of any kind aka no semblance of map control, no valks, no super early grades. It was a good game with the main macro concepts of the matchup but you didn't need to do any of the 'changes' or what not that day talked about because that is the slowest/weakest mech variation. I mean ZvT is hard on colo vs mech, because even controling defending against speed vultures at all your expos is hard. I don't think its hard when a terran is 2 base vs 4-5 base all game. The same style mech used in that game GGplay beat with 6 gas muta/ultra/muta/ultradrops. | ||
|
Liquid`Ret
Netherlands4511 Posts
here's a rep vs a proper mech, i let vults sneak into my base though, still shows macro concept well. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7050&key=87b26c 1.15.3 | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 10 2009 00:26 ret wrote: yeah, that's true, that's why i said sort of, no early vulture, but the macro concept is there ~_~ here's a rep vs a proper mech, i let vults sneak into my base though, still shows macro concept well. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7050&key=87b26c 1.15.3 This rep is very educational. I really like your 3 hat 2 base/ 5 hat 4 base / 9hat 4 base hatchery structure. If you could when you face a bunker rush -> mech or any other variations please post. Valk variations would be helpfull also. Message oystein, he has a mean mech on destination/colo. | ||
|
StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
On January 10 2009 06:06 AttackZerg wrote: This rep is very educational. I really like your 3 hat 2 base/ 5 hat 4 base / 9hat 4 base hatchery structure. If you could when you face a bunker rush -> mech or any other variations please post. Valk variations would be helpfull also. Message oystein, he has a mean mech on destination/colo. Yes, PLEASE counter the valk variation!! It just requires so much micro to stay away from valks as well as threatening to scourge them if they come too close. And of course, during battle, you have to micro scourges into valks, run mutas in while also flanking with hydras and lings... | ||
|
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
I disagree about making guardians against mech though. Only lurkers are worse vs mech. 3 evos sauron-style zerg is the way to go, and abuse his immobility with drops(preferably simultanous drops at different locations, be careful not to get spotted and avoid doing this if he makes valks) and mutalisk skirmishes throughout the game. You dont want to attack his blob until you have to. Try to wait until you have taken the map, and your units are decently placed for a flank. As Day pointed out, overlord-management is significantly more important vs mech than vs bionic in order to clear mines. Goliaths rape them so it's important to spread them well. | ||
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 10 2009 11:28 Guybrush wrote: 3 evos sauron-style zerg is the way to go, and abuse his immobility with drops(preferably simultanous drops at different locations, be careful not to get spotted and avoid doing this if he makes valks) and mutalisk skirmishes throughout the game. You dont want to attack his blob until you have to. Try to wait until you have taken the map, and your units are decently placed for a flank. As Day pointed out, overlord-management is significantly more important vs mech than vs bionic in order to clear mines. Goliaths rape them so it's important to spread them well. Isn't this pretty much the opposite of what Day advocated? "The key to beating mech is not being cute, it's by having a lot of shit?" | ||
|
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
| ||
|
knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Hopefully it will help me enough that playing vs mech will net me some free wins. | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
|
CFDragon
United States304 Posts
| ||
|
Mikami
21 Posts
| ||
|
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
On January 10 2009 11:39 motbob wrote: Isn't this pretty much the opposite of what Day advocated? "The key to beating mech is not being cute, it's by having a lot of shit?" No, it's exactly what he said. Lower tier units like hydra-lings in massive numbers is what sauron zerg is all about. Tons of hatcheries, focus on minerals, and upgrading from 3 evos. Shikyo pretty much explained why guardians are bad. Of course it's dependant on the terrans number of goliaths, and/or valks. A terran who uses most of his gas on tanks then yes guardians will do good, however this is rarely the case, because it would make him too vulnerable to a mutalisk switch and the terran knows this. That pretty much goes without saying. | ||
|
Divinek
Canada4045 Posts
On January 11 2009 00:16 Mikami wrote: any replays would help Scroll up to ret's post above yours | ||
|
Navane
Netherlands2748 Posts
But I have one question: You stated "since terran aims for a big slow army, zerg should not try to be cute". I immidiatly believe you, but why is this true? | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Me and oystein are working on mech. This is a game on destination where he agreed to go mech, how he did so was up to him. I am testing exact counters and then trying to find how to reach these situations with ingame scouting. This is not an aggressive vs mech game either. Hydra opening vs mech | ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 11 2009 05:10 Navane wrote: Day, don't be so polite; this is not a rant but a full-scale lecture. Im D- so i don't know wether its true or not, but I believe you immidiatly. Awesome. But I have one question: You stated "since terran aims for a big slow army, zerg should not try to be cute". I immidiatly believe you, but why is this true? Are you familiar with PvT? Macro plays a huge role, take expansions and macro your ass off. That's everything you need. It's the same with this mech style. Then you can add things if you are good like harass but it's not really needed. Everything is centered around macro and that big final 200/200 army vs 200/200 army. | ||
|
Allegro
Poland2 Posts
replay its not gosu but if he Zerg would play with Day[9] guid ... I would lose i think... | ||
|
axion
Norway110 Posts
| ||
|
HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
and guess what i did 3hatch hydra with 2nd gas -.lair TY ! EFF THAT back to 2HATCH MUTA > EARLY GAS T | ||
|
SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
On January 11 2009 05:10 Navane wrote: Day, don't be so polite; this is not a rant but a full-scale lecture. Im D- so i don't know wether its true or not, but I believe you immidiatly. Awesome. But I have one question: You stated "since terran aims for a big slow army, zerg should not try to be cute". I immidiatly believe you, but why is this true? because its easy for a mech terran defend against any sort of harass (goliaths rape muta, drops, lurks are useless vs mech, tanks are good at defending, etc etc) then when he moves out with his giant blob of death you need to have an army to combat that, else its game over | ||
|
HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
swarm+ lurkers still are sexy I mean hell, no sciences vessels to irriad anything, gols + tanks can't damage a tank for .. well anything, once it's burrowed. Not so much in mass but a little drop here n there or a couple lurkers + swarm can secure an expo /delay attacks o_o i wouldnt say my ZvT style has changed to a meat viariation so much although hydraling does give good results; i dont liek that play style vT | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
| ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 12 2009 00:52 HeavOnEarth wrote: I wouldn't say lurkers are useless vs T and i wouldn't say cute shit doesnt work vs a mech t swarm+ lurkers still are sexy I mean hell, no sciences vessels to irriad anything, gols + tanks can't damage a tank for .. well anything, once it's burrowed. Not so much in mass but a little drop here n there or a couple lurkers + swarm can secure an expo /delay attacks o_o i wouldnt say my ZvT style has changed to a meat viariation so much although hydraling does give good results; i dont liek that play style vT if his tankcount is great, which it probably will be by the time u get to hivetech, swarm does not work the way its supposed to. Thats cos tanks have splash, and 10 tanks has ALOT of splash dmg. | ||
|
GinNtoniC
Sweden2945 Posts
The day before yesterday I got - during my recent "Learning Zerg-campaign" - wtfowned by a 2 base T on Destination. I asked for a re and he did the exact same thing on Python. I delved into all the quality anti-mech threads including Day's classic post on general ZvMech. I'm getting dinner ready and will be watching this in transe. | ||
|
Prof. Protoss
Germany744 Posts
thanks a lot you should do this more often | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On destination put your first overlord behind there base, after you scout for the proxy 8 rax then there main, if you see gas, keep the lord there, and preceed to late gas ..... when your den is finishing suicide your lord(make an extra lord about ten seconds before. If he only has 1 or two marines, you can get about half way threw his base and see more or less everything. If there is an addon I send every overlord to close expos, or towards his base, first 10 hydras (I make more then day) I use to fiegn aggression and clear mines and double expo, while pumping drones, then I go spire-evo same timing, and get +1 attack for both, I power about 20 hydra (putting me around 30) add 2 hats and start making muta. Remember to run along the outskirts of the map when they expand midgame, and too clone 12-14 lings in a spread out formation before attacking otherwise mines will rape you. If you do it correctly you can power straight from 70 supply to about 130 before they can safely take their third. Days guide is the best against vulture first openers. Thanks again sean! | ||
|
Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
| ||
|
motbob
United States12546 Posts
On January 14 2009 14:22 AttackZerg wrote: Anybody who needs replays at the C and C+ level against iccup korean mech and non-korean I have alot now. Opening hydra into double expo is fucking evil. I don't even have to move fast to win, less then 200 apm zvt wins..... I want all terran to go mech lol! Release a replaypack! Also, release a rep of you losing, so we can see how to counter Day's strategy. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
Also i might add some FPVods in the near future, it will be fun! | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 14 2009 15:12 motbob wrote: Release a replaypack! Also, release a rep of you losing, so we can see how to counter Day's strategy. even with oystein and clanmates I have yet to lose since changing my fast lair ways. I did lose vs mech, but it was proxy 6 rax -> gas around 10 , proxy factory -> vulture->wraith->vulture drops -> fast gol/tank push. One of those games where the zerg never exists outside of the rape | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 16:43 AttackZerg wrote: even with oystein and clanmates I have yet to lose since changing my fast lair ways. I did lose vs mech, but it was proxy 6 rax -> gas around 10 , proxy factory -> vulture->wraith->vulture drops -> fast gol/tank push. One of those games where the zerg never exists outside of the rape post a replay, i'd like to see some timings! maybe we should practice some mech so we can post reps of you losing. Haha | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Get.attackzerg on iccup, right now I'm ranking up but we should definately play. I'll post some reps in this same post a little later. | ||
|
StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
On January 14 2009 17:22 AttackZerg wrote: I will destroy you in 2009 Get.attackzerg on iccup, right now I'm ranking up but we should definately play. I'll post some reps in this same post a little later. ok im REDKEN, A-MayBe and 404.Stylish ima eat some breakfast, lets play later. I find it really fun practicing mech, can do it all day. Usually practice with naugrim we get awesome games | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
 Day9's guide was really cool and useful tho. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
Flashy I think mech is so much more fun at times then bio. Even the crap terrans in the C+ range can give me epic 20 minute ZvT wars with mech, the same guys that can't deal with 2 lurkers a defiler and 8 lings sneaking around the map can lay mines and push across the map with a Terran ball. I love it, now there are more terrans playing on iccup, before until you were like b- you couldn't even get zvt practice regularly. | ||
|
zobz
Canada2175 Posts
| ||
|
omninmo
2349 Posts
more audio..allows me to work and learn SC strats. | ||
|
Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On January 15 2009 09:49 TheFlashyOne wrote: i'd just like to point that i feel that mech is a bit lame ^_^ requires lower apm than bio and makes all your T match ups use metal... Day9's guide was really cool and useful tho. I must write up your opinion in my little pink notebook asap! | ||
|
MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
On January 07 2009 09:13 Zoler wrote: Awsome!! Too bad you just helped exactly every one of my opponents. Btw you talk just like Dr Cox in Scrubs. Isn't that the asshole cop from The Animal as well? Hahaha. Great post, Day. Definitely will help my ZvT now, I think mech's my biggest problem. | ||
|
MutaDoom
Canada1163 Posts
| ||
|
DShepherd
Jamaica1 Post
| ||
|
Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On January 21 2009 01:55 DShepherd wrote: I think shine[kal] implemented Day9's strategy against Notice in this video link and it worked very well for shine[Kal] i just wanted to link the same game ^^ | ||
|
Sagechord
6 Posts
Some thoughts from me: *Consider burrow. What often happens is that the terran player will ignore your 2 or so sunkens at your expansion and rush in with 8 vultures picking off virtually all your workers. They usually get quite late scan with this build and they will lose time and its hard to pick off burrowed workers even with scan in my opionion. This has saved me so much past games vs mech that I always feel the 100/100 is worth it, get it early of course. Generally just denying those vulture harass with hydra and sunken is one of the most critical things. This leads of course to the obvious conclusion that hydras are so much more useful in the early game than zerglings are. *Consider lurkers. As mentioned above the scan is usually pretty late and the vessels come extremly late if at all. I dont use them for battles but as defence vs early timed pushes and for getting his scvs. Since you will always get ovie speed for mines the drop upgrade is easly worth it.This will keep him on his toes and give you the opportunity to turn the tide of the game with sneaky attacks. *Mass hatcheries. What often happens is that the zerg player is used to spending his money fast with those expensive ultras and finds himself with thousands of minerals with this alternative build. When your massing drones and expansions as you should the amount of hydras and lings you can produce is just insane! Macro is just so important it cannot be stated enough. *Time attacks. Pretty obvious and stated before but use those ovies and see his tanks unsieging. Attacking when he is unsieging and sieging is so much more powerful. Also dont forget to grap a control group of mutas, they draw insane amount of fire and just target those tanks. Also you get more units attacking at the same time since air units stack above the ground units. | ||
|
TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
| ||
|
TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On January 12 2009 00:22 HeavOnEarth wrote: god damnit i scout a terran take gas BEFORE his rax then he goes 3rax+1 and guess what i did 3hatch hydra with 2nd gas -.lair TY ! EFF THAT back to 2HATCH MUTA > EARLY GAS T I'm actually doing this vs Terran early gas and its working really well. | ||
|
FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
Hydralisks are like goons, they are eaten alive by Tanks.. no? I dunno, I struggle immensely vs mech MIDGAME push. I find standard Terran mech atm does FE --> mech 6 fact mass goliath push with like 6 tanks. I haven't stopped it once.... vs the same skill level as me on ICCuP (C-). | ||
|
koreasilver
9109 Posts
| ||
|
WindCalibur
Canada938 Posts
| ||
|
Aux1
United States780 Posts
On January 26 2009 12:26 WindCalibur wrote: Does drop play work in anyway vs mech? i'd imagine it could be useful in the mid-late game when terran is set up in the middle to take a 3rd or fourth since mech isnt very mobile and it would be hard for them to get back. edit: but i wouldnt base your whole game plan around one huge drop | ||
|
CursOr
United States6335 Posts
took advantage of his immobility. dropped on his main minners while i had a distracting attack on the front. he took a big hit to econ. then soon, i came with a good mix of units, lings, hydra and lurkers, and just burried him. your ideas really work. helped my game tremendously. | ||
|
Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/90/infoling3ep2.png) Go for the base, go for the base lings!!!! ![[image loading]](http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1986/infoling2tj0.png) We can make it, right? ![[image loading]](http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/6147/infoling1yf6.png) 2 port scouted! | ||
|
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
| ||
|
CursOr
United States6335 Posts
though he came way earlier then you seem to recommend, he seemed to fAvOr your strategy to a tee. mostly hydra, mix with ling+mut- and just walked on him. couldnt help but think of this as i watched it, and savior scouted mech. :D | ||
|
skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
| ||
|
Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
| ||
|
Bloodwolf
Costa Rica32 Posts
And yes, you do sound like Dr. Cox lol. | ||
|
CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Just shows you that lurkers can still be useful vs mech. And tech switching is possible if you use them to delay long enough. http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=7589&name=SpoR vs gosucomputer.rep PS- Nydus Flank FTW! | ||
|
wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
| ||
|
neliel
Sweden63 Posts
Just uploaded it. Tell me if you want his other audio aswell. | ||
|
Harem
United States11392 Posts
| ||
|
Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
On March 13 2009 18:13 wurm wrote: Is there any way I can download this? I want to listen to this on the go. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89581 | ||
|
Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + i'm always like "why don't they follow day[9]'s advice and go hydras??" why zergs, why? | ||
|
B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
| ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
|
VHbb
689 Posts
| ||
|
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On June 12 2016 06:06 Crunchums wrote: i feel like every single ZvT FPVOD I watch where the terran mech switches, the zerg always goes for ultras and loses horribly. e.g. + Show Spoiler + i'm always like "why don't they follow day[9]'s advice and go hydras??" why zergs, why? since this is a simple question, i give you simple answers: 1. mech =/= late mech 2. zerg players are bad, but zero surprised me this game by playing slightly smarter than usual.... | ||
|
Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
| ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
|
AsianEcksDragon
United States1036 Posts
I think Air Carapace Upgrade is a must. Not only must your Mutas be able to tank Goliaths, you'll have to be doing a lot of doom drops or drops on top of Siege Tanks. Burrow is also underrated. You can save a lot of drones whenever the mech army steamrolls through your bases. Rather than butt heads with the army, I like to just give up the less important bases, doom drop to take out the Terran's production, and then throw endless waves of units against the army. | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
| ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Britney Dota 2  43232Calm  4618Rain 2597Jaedong 1811Horang2 1191Bisu 1094EffOrt 631Light  583firebathero 542Mini 512[ Show more ] Counter-Strike Other Games singsing2431 hiko826 Lowko361 ceh9228 Sick206 Liquid`VortiX184 FrodaN174 Hui .125 ArmadaUGS112 Skadoodle79 Mew2King62 KnowMe57 QueenE55 Trikslyr36 ZerO(Twitch)14 |
|
PiGosaur Monday
Replay Cast
OSC
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
The PondCast
OSC
WardiTV Invitational
Online Event
RSL Revival
RSL Revival
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
