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I will try to keep this as simple as possible.
I was wondering about fights between zealots and zerglings.. also a famous strategy for protoss where +1 gives a massacre vs zerglings (for ling ofcourse).
As I did a little maths in my head, I came across a fact that if zealot has 16 + 6 (+3 upgrade) damage and zergling has +3 armor, zealot should kill zergling with 2 shots. In fact:
16+6=22 that is zealot damage, then we reduce -3 (zergling armor) = 19 damage per hit, that would mean 2 shots needed for zergling to be down.
But wait, something is wrong in late game, lings do not fall that easy from lots.. what is the deal? I made a UMS and watched it carefully with my friend. Here was the result:
With first hit, zergling has 20 health left, with second hit, zergling has 4 health left, with third zergling is dead. I couldnt belive my eyes.. first hit does 16 damage (and zerlging heals for 1 health) next one does 16 also. So what what is the deal??
Friend that watched as I was testing the fight, told me after that zealot's attack is calculated differently, like this:
16+6=22 zealots has 2 blades so every blade does 11 damage, 11-3=8. Every blade does 8 damage cuz every blade is beeing reduced by 3 (zergling armor). So this explains the fact I did not understand earlier.
So can you tell me please, is this bullshit or not? Do you agree with this? Did you know about these facts? Should this be changed?
Is it the same thing with goliaths? both ground and air attack? Ultralisk also? Wraith?(air) Scout?(air)...etc. etc.
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Braavos36402 Posts
Yes, some attacks are treated as two.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Yea, that's exactly how it works. Zealots attack twice, simultaneously for 8 damage each. Hence, armour gets subtracted twice. Hence, Zealots suck against high-armoured units (such as Ultrailsks).
Other units to consider if they work this way:
Goliath ground, no.
Goliath air, yes.
Ultra, no.
Wraith air, no (not 100% sure)
There was a thread about this, let me try to find it.
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i think wraith has 2 missiles leading into +2 and -2.
goliath can get really screwed over if not upgraded, especially vs mutalisks - 20 base damage vs small unit = 10 damage, a mutalisk with 3 armor would be ... now what would it actually be? (20-6)/2? or 20/2-6? i cant imagine it being (5-3)x2, that would be horrible. whichever way it is, 7 or 4 damage is horrible ;D
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Calgary26004 Posts
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Norway28917 Posts
ya wraith air is 1 attack
and well valkyrie is 8
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Firebat hits 2. It says three because against disproportionately large units (Ultralisk) the flame will do one extra hit adding up to 3 hits.
Firebat (3 attacks) (upgrades add +1 in 2 out of the 3 shots, so +2)
Zealot (2 attacks)
Goliath air (2 attacks) (upgrade adds +2 in both shoots, so +4)
Scout air (2 attacks)
Wraith (2 attacks) I will go against everyone else and say its 2. =p
Others:
Valkyrie (8 attacks) (Only the power of a single shot appears in the pop up box)
Carrier (1-8 Attacks) (Only the power of a single shot appears in the pop up box)
Getting plus 1 attack for these units is often quite beneficial for the offender, and +1 defense good for the defender.
Special:
Mutalisk (1-3 hits) (shot 1: base damage, Shot 2: base damage/3, Shot 3: base damage/9)
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So that's why Goliaths suck against Mutalisks. I never knew that Goliath anti-air was counted as two hits.
This kind of depth is what makes StarCraft so damned interesting.
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Norway28917 Posts
thats not why goliaths suck vs mutas, mutas have 0 base armor and zerg will almost never have upgraded armor. goliath vs mutalisk battles aren't affected by this. the reason why goliaths suck vs mutas is that they deal explosive damage..
this IS why carriers are able to survive for such a long period of time against goliaths tho. (especially upgraded carriers)
3 attack goliaths deal 32 damage vs air with 0 armor, but only 18 damage against a +3 armor carrier, or 24 against a carrier with 0 armor
or in the event of a goliath not being upgraded, it deals a base damage of 12 against carriers..
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Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
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United States1655 Posts
Ah, I was wondering this too. I thought the math was just screwed up or something, but it's all clear now! 
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imo its something like this -
(base damage - armor*number of attacks) / (attack type armor type relations)
explosive : 100% large 75% medium 50% small
normal : 100% all
concusive (vulture//ghost//firebat) - 100%small 50% medium 25% large
so for instance goliath with 3 upg attack deals 32/2= 16 damage to 0 upgrade muta ,
and (32-3*2)/2 = 13 vs 3 carapaced muta.
that means upgrade armor aren't so beneficial when talking about diffrent unit sizes and attack types
same goes with vult vs goon with 3 attack its 26/4= ~6-7 , and vs 3 armor its 26-3/4 = ~5-6
the point is - if the armor would be counted after unit size - then those things would own
ex: vult 0/0 vs goon 3 armor 20/4 - 3 = 2 - imba ?!?!  . and in game its (20 -3) /4 = ~4
a bit of useless math here ^^ correct me if i am wrong
edit - ok i did test
0/0 vult vs 0/0 goon - 5 damage to armor 20 to shield
0/0 vult vs 0/3 goon - 4 damage to armor 20 to shield
0/0 gol vs 0/0 muta - 10 damage
0/0 gol vs 0/3 muta - 7 damage (20-3*2)/2= hmm lol 7 ? XD
3/0 gol vs 0/3 muta - 13 damage (32-3*2)/2=13 - bw is perfect (only firebats and angles are bugged)
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Norway28917 Posts
On October 23 2007 02:54 CubEdIn wrote:
Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
this is very wrong
armor is subtracted first
goliath gets +4 attack (+2 on each missile)
armor takes away +1 from each goliath missile
so the +1 goliath deals 22 / 2 = 11 damage against the +1 armor mutalisk..
still tho when going metal vs zerg terran should get +1 armor instead of attack when facing mutaling and zerg should go +1 carepace for ground and attack for air. actually they should also upgrade range and melee, and honestly carepace is mostly good if terran doesnt get attack. which he normally shouldnt unless he has 2 armories cause armor is better. 
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Never knew this before... damn.
If its all true, well it is kinda worked for balance... TT
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I don't think firebat does the equivalent of three hits to larger units such as ultras. Not sure though, would be awesome if it did ~
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I think that zealot is better than zergling unless you play terran.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On October 23 2007 02:54 CubEdIn wrote:
Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
If you read the thread Chill quoted, it is stated there that armor is deducted from damage before any size/weapon calculations. So, +1 golies do 2x12 damage, with +1 carapace, that becomes 2x11 damage or 11 damage after armor type reduction (to be perfectly precise, 2x5,5 damage, and yes, fractional damage is possible). Air carapace doesn't cancel goliath damage, in fact, no upgrade can make anything more durable vs something due to these mechanics, the best you can hope for is parity (zealot vs zergling, all upgrades cancel each other), usually it's either reduced effect (if the weapon upgrade adds at least +2 per hit, for example, dragoon or goliath air attack) or even completely neglible (any kind of upgrading vs tanks or reavers, since the difference between 99 damage and 100 damage is hardly important).
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Yeah, ok, I was wrong about the armor but aren't goliath anti-air attacks explosive?
And if so, doesn't that mean 50% damage to small units.
And if so, doesn't that mean they deal 50% damage to mutas?
So +1 would be 22/1 = 11/2 = 5/6 (per missile). So I was quite close. Not "very" wrong. They will take 11 damage per hit. (initially said 9).
Either way, 11 damage per hit is seriously weak, no?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
11 damage per hit is neither weak not strong because you have to take into account what takes that damage.
Even though such comparisons are retarded, mutas do even less damage to golies (9 huh) and cost more. They also have less range. Now, that was completely meaningless, what is meaningful is that explosive vs small doesn't mean the latter is triumphant. Hydras rape zealots every day, goons rape mutas in every single ZP/ZP team game, goons with micro rape marines, tanks rape zealots etc. It's all about build timings and getting the required numbers at the right time. PvZ doesn't allow to get enough dragoons to be safe vs muta because of the early game difficulties. TvZ on some maps does allow a fast expansion AND an in-time transition into golies.
You were wrong because you articulated how upgrading carapace would make mutas do better vs golies. Actually, goliath damage goes up from 10 to 11 in that situation, so no, carapace is not that cool.
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On October 23 2007 10:58 BluzMan wrote:
11 damage per hit is neither weak not strong because you have to take into account what takes that damage.
Even though such comparisons are retarded, mutas do even less damage to golies (9 huh) and cost more. They also have less range. Now, that was completely meaningless, what is meaningful is that explosive vs small doesn't mean the latter is triumphant. Hydras rape zealots every day, goons rape mutas in every single ZP/ZP team game, goons with micro rape marines, tanks rape zealots etc. It's all about build timings and getting the required numbers at the right time. PvZ doesn't allow to get enough dragoons to be safe vs muta because of the early game difficulties. TvZ on some maps does allow a fast expansion AND an in-time transition into golies.
You were wrong because you articulated how upgrading carapace would make mutas do better vs golies. Actually, goliath damage goes up from 10 to 11 in that situation, so no, carapace is not that cool.
You're cute.
Well, you're right, some comparisons are retarded. But the fact that goliaths deal less damage to mutas means that muta is a direct counter to mech terran. If mutas were large they would be worthless. And even if they cost more, they have that extra thinghie called mobility. So you can use them to harass AND fight goliaths. When going a large m&m force they're just good at harassing, then you have to switch to lurkers. But vs mech, you can use them for fighting too. That keeps the terran on the edge. Also you're missing the fact that mutas clump together and have semi-splash damage (even if little, does count), and that they have shorter cooldown, and so on.
Also, hydras rape zealots every day? Then why do protosses go zealot/archon/storm 80% of the time? A fe protoss with +1/speed zeals will be able to face a 2-expo tier 1 zerg if he didn't fuck up the start. (i.e. losing a lot till speed and +1 is up). And zealots ARE good vs hydra especially BECAUSE hydras deal explosive damage. The only good argument you can bring is "corsairs rape mutas". Yes, they do. But siege tanks don't really rape zealots, it's more like the other way around.
And finally, you're saying that carapace is not good because... ? I think terran should get armor. Not attack. And zergs should do the same, unless terran gets armor, in which case zerg should get attack. Why is carapace not good? Goliath +1 attack means that mutas will take 12 damage (6 per rocket). +1 carapace will make them take 11 (5.5 per rocket). Why is that not cool?
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EPT
