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[I] Zealot vs Zergling - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
October 23 2007 05:26 GMT
#21
once again, my eyes have been opened...
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
imBLIND
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States2626 Posts
October 23 2007 05:29 GMT
#22
man....its a mass thing...
Sometimes, mass units of [insert unit here] will overcome [insert unit here].
Ever seen oov or nada just blow it up with like 50 seige tanks? they dont even care about statis or the zlots; they just trample the toss.
Its the same with the mass hydras / mass whatever else there is.
And gols dont completely suck vs mutas; its just taht they are kind of immobile compared to marines when defending a base.
im deaf
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-24 08:34:44
October 23 2007 09:52 GMT
#23
Damage calculation:
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Reduction from splash zone(damage is multiplied by 0.25/0.5/1.0)
2. Armor amount reduction
3. Armor type reduction
If it's a protoss unit and:
a) Currently has no shields, just the armor type and amount of the unit are used.
b) It has shields, the shield upgrade amount is used and the armor type takes 100% from everything. If this attack depletes the shields, the leftover damage after depleting the shields is calculated again as in case a)

The minimum damage from an attack is 0.5 and this does not apply twice for the separate shield/hp calculations for protoss units.

Damage amount is rounded to 1/256.


Units with "special" attacks:
+ Show Spoiler +

Zealot - 2 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade

Scout Air - 2 attacks by 14 + 1 per upgrade

Goliath Air - 2 attacks by 10 + 2 per upgrade

Firebat - 3 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade, even burrowed lurkers can be hit by all 3 attacks, it just depends on the angle of attack(the amount shoed is hardcoded to be the damage of 2 of the attacks added up, but all three are upgraded and each deals 8 damage base)

Lurker - several attacks by 20 + 2 per upgrade, with the restriction that only 1 attack can hit a single unit and all of them have only 100% splash(the 50% and 25% areas are the same as the 100%, so a unit can't take partial damage from the lurker's attack). A bug can override this rule, this happens when the lurker dies the exact moment it attacks, then a unit can be hit by several of the attacks, it's easily noticable with full hp marines dying to a single lurker.

Valk - 8 attacks by 6 + 1 per upgrade, if there are multiple units in the 100% splash zone, only one will take 100% damage and the others will take 50%. The same aplies to corsairs.

Mutalisk bounces deal 1/3 less than the previous bounce, for example +1 damage muta against 3 targets with 1 armor will deal 10 - 1 = 9 on the first hit, 10 / 3 - 1 = 2.333...(rounded to the nearest 1/256) on the second hit and 10 / 9 - 1 = 0.111... upped to 0.5, which is the minimum damage, on the third hit.

Devourer spores increase damage from each attack by 1 per spore, this includes spell damage.

Not an unit attack, but since it affects attacks: Defensive matrix reduces attack damage to the minimum - 0.5, this includes spell damage. The total damage prevented is 250, but this does not acount the minimum damage inflicted or the unit's armor, so a zergling with 5 damage will perish the shield in 50 hits and still deal 25 damage, no matter the target's armor and the end effect will be 225 damage absorbed on a unit with 0 armor and even less on a unit with several points of armor(if the target has 5 armor, for example, the Defensive Matrix will NOT make any difference).

An exception to these 2 is the plague, which doesn't deal damage, but directly removes hp, so it doesn't interact with defensive matrix or acid spores(even if you change plague's attack type in the .dat files it doesn't change the spell's effect at all).

Nukes deal:
Against units/buildings with 750 or less total maximum HP + shields -> 500, 250, 125 explosive damage.
Against units/buildings with 750 or more total maximum HP + shields ->
2/3, 1/3, 1/6 of the total maximum HP + shields.
The three values are for the 100%, 50% and 25% splash zones ofc.


Burrowed units and Dark Swarm mechanics:
+ Show Spoiler +

Burrowed units take only 100% damage splash. If they are in the 25% or 50% zone they will take no damage at all. You can test it even with a nuke - burrowed units near the end of the damage zone will take no damage at all, while unburrowed will.

Dark Swarm makes range units attack infront of the target, so units with no splash attack don't hit their target at all.

Reaver's scarab is a melee unit, so it doesn't effect it(Something interesting - if you press stop on a reaver, which has a scarab on the field, the scarab will explode dealing no damage).
Firebats deal most of their damage with their 100% splash, so they deal damage to burrowed units under swarm, they also deal line splash and fire exactly at the target, not infront of it.
Lurkers also can't really fire infront of their target, so they always hit and they deal all of their damage in 100% splash.
Tanks won't hit a burrowed lurker thay are aiming at, because the 100% damage zone does not reach the target(the radii on their 100% splash is 10, they normally hit a bit infront of their target and Dark Swarm makes them hit even more off)
High Archons as Siege Tanks can't hit the burrowed unit they are aiming at(under swarm), their 100% damage splash zone has a radii of 3 and they attack infront of their target, if they are too close to it, the actuall attack sprite will appear behind the archon or on top of it.


P.S. If I missed something post about it and I'll add it
I'll call Nada.
Eerik
Profile Joined October 2002
Estonia117 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-23 09:56:11
October 23 2007 09:55 GMT
#24
oops beaten to it.
Hm.
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
October 23 2007 11:38 GMT
#25
I just wanted to add that corsairs can be similar to zealots attacks. Imagine if sair damage was 10 but with half the attack rate. And instead of 1 shot it was divided into 2. Same concept.
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
Last Edited: 2007-10-23 12:12:26
October 23 2007 12:09 GMT
#26
Imagine adding the same concept to something else... then the "something else" will have the same concept... wtf are you smoking man???
I'll call Nada.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28701 Posts
October 23 2007 13:29 GMT
#27
cubedin the fact is you wrote "this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech"
it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why muta ling is good vs terran mech. then you follow up giving completely wrong calculations..
other than the line "muta ling is good vs terran mech", every single thing in your post was wrong. you wrote that goliaths +1 attack deal 22 damage, which is wrong, it's 24, you thought armour was subtracted after size, that's wrong.. I don't understand how you can be offended by me saying your post was very wrong, when it had almost no correct parts in it.

mutaling isn't even that great, lings kind of blow against mech. muta hydra, while more gas costly, is much much better. the main counter is never engaging his main force though.
Moderator
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
October 23 2007 14:57 GMT
#28
On October 23 2007 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
cubedin the fact is you wrote "this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech"
it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why muta ling is good vs terran mech. then you follow up giving completely wrong calculations..
other than the line "muta ling is good vs terran mech", every single thing in your post was wrong. you wrote that goliaths +1 attack deal 22 damage, which is wrong, it's 24, you thought armour was subtracted after size, that's wrong.. I don't understand how you can be offended by me saying your post was very wrong, when it had almost no correct parts in it.

mutaling isn't even that great, lings kind of blow against mech. muta hydra, while more gas costly, is much much better. the main counter is never engaging his main force though.


I wasn't offended, I just said it wasn't very wrong since the end result was 1 or 2 points of damage off what it should be. I would consider very wrong not calculating the explosive part or the 2x damage, that's all. I'm sorry if I seemed offended, I was just trying to explain myself.

I don't know about the mutaling part though, I guess it's about gameflow. Muta hydra does sound better but mutaling means you have speedlings so you could have harassed terran before he started meching too, since terrans that mech are rather vulnerable in the beginning, before the mass golis start.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
Lhyviathan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Australia975 Posts
October 23 2007 15:07 GMT
#29
Essentially, if Zerg and Protoss are always equal in Carapace and Ground Weapon upgrades, respectively, it'll take 3 attacks for a Zealot to take down a Zergling.

The number only drops to 2 attacks if Protoss keeps ahead on upgrades.
Nal_rA = The Fourth Race
CubEdIn
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Romania5359 Posts
October 23 2007 15:19 GMT
#30
On October 24 2007 00:07 Lhyviathan wrote:
Essentially, if Zerg and Protoss are always equal in Carapace and Ground Weapon upgrades, respectively, it'll take 3 attacks for a Zealot to take down a Zergling.

The number only drops to 2 attacks if Protoss keeps ahead on upgrades.


Also note that 3 carapace lings vs 0 attack zealots will die in 4 hits, not 3. This usually doesn't matter, but say you were going reav/sair and hadn't gotten any ground unit grades, and you've got a lot of minerals and are considering finishing him off with zeals, be very very scared of lings.
Im not a n00b, I just play like one.
brambolius
Profile Joined January 2006
Netherlands448 Posts
October 23 2007 15:56 GMT
#31
On October 23 2007 01:08 Leath wrote:
Firebat hits 2. It says three because against disproportionately large units (Ultralisk) the flame will do one extra hit adding up to 3 hits.


Wow, i learned something :D.
drop
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Romania306 Posts
October 23 2007 16:26 GMT
#32
If a zergling is running there is a small chance of the firebat hitting him 3 times (basically it looks as if the ling was trying to hit the firebat, not run past him)

Also a zealot can be killed while hitting an unit and only deal 8 damage :D
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
October 23 2007 22:58 GMT
#33
Someone want to write a guide on upgrades (focuses on the ones that commonly change games)? Something like that could really help people like myself, who never thought about them in this much depth o.o I was wondering why my PvZ was Godly against some players, and pathetic against others, and now I'm pretty sure it has something to do with ups XD
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
DD-FRIeZa
Profile Joined November 2006
Croatia91 Posts
October 26 2007 02:30 GMT
#34
lololol

Did I miss it or you did not add when siege tank shoots inside the swarm and trying to hit a unit, siegen tank will actually shoot near it (as you say in front of it), but if another unit is standing there it will get full damage from tank.

So tank can shoot accidentally false units inside the swarm..same goes for Archon I think?
DTDominion
Profile Joined November 2005
United States2148 Posts
October 27 2007 04:04 GMT
#35
On October 23 2007 02:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
thats not why goliaths suck vs mutas, mutas have 0 base armor and zerg will almost never have upgraded armor. goliath vs mutalisk battles aren't affected by this. the reason why goliaths suck vs mutas is that they deal explosive damage..

this IS why carriers are able to survive for such a long period of time against goliaths tho. (especially upgraded carriers)

3 attack goliaths deal 32 damage vs air with 0 armor, but only 18 damage against a +3 armor carrier, or 24 against a carrier with 0 armor
or in the event of a goliath not being upgraded, it deals a base damage of 12 against carriers..



Thus proving that people like me who haven't played the game with any kind of seriousness for over a year should refrain from commenting on it.

My bad.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24719 Posts
October 27 2007 13:19 GMT
#36
Whenever I read all these in depth discussions about damage types and calculations, it makes me wonder how much of this information isn't available in official documents that have been published by Blizzard. How much of it is word of mouth based on what fans have observed?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
pallokim
Profile Joined August 2007
United States22 Posts
October 29 2007 16:57 GMT
#37
Actually, most explanations are already given in the official Starcraft Compendium website under unit stats. The only info not given is whether armor is subtracted before explosive damage reduction. It seems (according to people in this thread) that armor calculations are done first.
lololol
Profile Joined February 2006
5198 Posts
October 29 2007 18:09 GMT
#38
On October 26 2007 11:30 DD-FRIeZa wrote:
lololol

Did I miss it or you did not add when siege tank shoots inside the swarm and trying to hit a unit, siegen tank will actually shoot near it (as you say in front of it), but if another unit is standing there it will get full damage from tank.

So tank can shoot accidentally false units inside the swarm..same goes for Archon I think?


Yes, it will, but only if you're specificly not targetting the closest unit(which tanks usually do, so you have to manually target units in the back). Archons have a tiny 100% splash zone and they have to be on top of the burrowed unit to actually hit it, so it's kind of ineffective

Unburrowed units will take partial damage, even if directly targeted, but it's still more effective to target the units in the back, so the front ones take 100% damage.
I'll call Nada.
LuDwig-
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Italy1143 Posts
October 31 2007 05:54 GMT
#39
so in ur opinion in carrier vs liath is better to upgrade first shiled?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120015&currentpage=98<--Search the HotBid's Post
FieryBalrog
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1381 Posts
November 06 2007 11:12 GMT
#40
On October 23 2007 11:33 CubEdIn wrote:

Also, hydras rape zealots every day? Then why do protosses go zealot/archon/storm 80% of the time?


Because storm makes it very hard if not impossible to properly micro large masses of hydra versus a speed zealot army, thats why, which is already hard because of the sheer numbers involved. Hydras own zealots with room and time to manoeuvre, even if zeals are speed upgraded. Also, protoss units take full damage to their shields, which is an interesting fact that really explains a lot of things about the matchup.
I will eat you alive
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