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I will try to keep this as simple as possible.
I was wondering about fights between zealots and zerglings.. also a famous strategy for protoss where +1 gives a massacre vs zerglings (for ling ofcourse).
As I did a little maths in my head, I came across a fact that if zealot has 16 + 6 (+3 upgrade) damage and zergling has +3 armor, zealot should kill zergling with 2 shots. In fact:
16+6=22 that is zealot damage, then we reduce -3 (zergling armor) = 19 damage per hit, that would mean 2 shots needed for zergling to be down.
But wait, something is wrong in late game, lings do not fall that easy from lots.. what is the deal? I made a UMS and watched it carefully with my friend. Here was the result:
With first hit, zergling has 20 health left, with second hit, zergling has 4 health left, with third zergling is dead. I couldnt belive my eyes.. first hit does 16 damage (and zerlging heals for 1 health) next one does 16 also. So what what is the deal??
Friend that watched as I was testing the fight, told me after that zealot's attack is calculated differently, like this:
16+6=22 zealots has 2 blades so every blade does 11 damage, 11-3=8. Every blade does 8 damage cuz every blade is beeing reduced by 3 (zergling armor). So this explains the fact I did not understand earlier.
So can you tell me please, is this bullshit or not? Do you agree with this? Did you know about these facts? Should this be changed?
Is it the same thing with goliaths? both ground and air attack? Ultralisk also? Wraith?(air) Scout?(air)...etc. etc.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Yes, some attacks are treated as two.
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Calgary25979 Posts
Yea, that's exactly how it works. Zealots attack twice, simultaneously for 8 damage each. Hence, armour gets subtracted twice. Hence, Zealots suck against high-armoured units (such as Ultrailsks).
Other units to consider if they work this way:
Goliath ground, no.
Goliath air, yes.
Ultra, no.
Wraith air, no (not 100% sure)
There was a thread about this, let me try to find it.
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i think wraith has 2 missiles leading into +2 and -2.
goliath can get really screwed over if not upgraded, especially vs mutalisks - 20 base damage vs small unit = 10 damage, a mutalisk with 3 armor would be ... now what would it actually be? (20-6)/2? or 20/2-6? i cant imagine it being (5-3)x2, that would be horrible. whichever way it is, 7 or 4 damage is horrible ;D
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Calgary25979 Posts
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Norway28630 Posts
ya wraith air is 1 attack
and well valkyrie is 8
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Firebat hits 2. It says three because against disproportionately large units (Ultralisk) the flame will do one extra hit adding up to 3 hits.
Firebat (3 attacks) (upgrades add +1 in 2 out of the 3 shots, so +2)
Zealot (2 attacks)
Goliath air (2 attacks) (upgrade adds +2 in both shoots, so +4)
Scout air (2 attacks)
Wraith (2 attacks) I will go against everyone else and say its 2. =p
Others:
Valkyrie (8 attacks) (Only the power of a single shot appears in the pop up box)
Carrier (1-8 Attacks) (Only the power of a single shot appears in the pop up box)
Getting plus 1 attack for these units is often quite beneficial for the offender, and +1 defense good for the defender.
Special:
Mutalisk (1-3 hits) (shot 1: base damage, Shot 2: base damage/3, Shot 3: base damage/9)
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So that's why Goliaths suck against Mutalisks. I never knew that Goliath anti-air was counted as two hits.
This kind of depth is what makes StarCraft so damned interesting.
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Norway28630 Posts
thats not why goliaths suck vs mutas, mutas have 0 base armor and zerg will almost never have upgraded armor. goliath vs mutalisk battles aren't affected by this. the reason why goliaths suck vs mutas is that they deal explosive damage..
this IS why carriers are able to survive for such a long period of time against goliaths tho. (especially upgraded carriers)
3 attack goliaths deal 32 damage vs air with 0 armor, but only 18 damage against a +3 armor carrier, or 24 against a carrier with 0 armor
or in the event of a goliath not being upgraded, it deals a base damage of 12 against carriers..
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Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
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United States1654 Posts
Ah, I was wondering this too. I thought the math was just screwed up or something, but it's all clear now! 
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imo its something like this -
(base damage - armor*number of attacks) / (attack type armor type relations)
explosive : 100% large 75% medium 50% small
normal : 100% all
concusive (vulture//ghost//firebat) - 100%small 50% medium 25% large
so for instance goliath with 3 upg attack deals 32/2= 16 damage to 0 upgrade muta ,
and (32-3*2)/2 = 13 vs 3 carapaced muta.
that means upgrade armor aren't so beneficial when talking about diffrent unit sizes and attack types
same goes with vult vs goon with 3 attack its 26/4= ~6-7 , and vs 3 armor its 26-3/4 = ~5-6
the point is - if the armor would be counted after unit size - then those things would own
ex: vult 0/0 vs goon 3 armor 20/4 - 3 = 2 - imba ?!?!  . and in game its (20 -3) /4 = ~4
a bit of useless math here ^^ correct me if i am wrong
edit - ok i did test
0/0 vult vs 0/0 goon - 5 damage to armor 20 to shield
0/0 vult vs 0/3 goon - 4 damage to armor 20 to shield
0/0 gol vs 0/0 muta - 10 damage
0/0 gol vs 0/3 muta - 7 damage (20-3*2)/2= hmm lol 7 ? XD
3/0 gol vs 0/3 muta - 13 damage (32-3*2)/2=13 - bw is perfect (only firebats and angles are bugged)
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Norway28630 Posts
On October 23 2007 02:54 CubEdIn wrote:
Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
this is very wrong
armor is subtracted first
goliath gets +4 attack (+2 on each missile)
armor takes away +1 from each goliath missile
so the +1 goliath deals 22 / 2 = 11 damage against the +1 armor mutalisk..
still tho when going metal vs zerg terran should get +1 armor instead of attack when facing mutaling and zerg should go +1 carepace for ground and attack for air. actually they should also upgrade range and melee, and honestly carepace is mostly good if terran doesnt get attack. which he normally shouldnt unless he has 2 armories cause armor is better. 
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Never knew this before... damn.
If its all true, well it is kinda worked for balance... TT
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I don't think firebat does the equivalent of three hits to larger units such as ultras. Not sure though, would be awesome if it did ~
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I think that zealot is better than zergling unless you play terran.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On October 23 2007 02:54 CubEdIn wrote:
Also, this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech. Most terrans do +1 attack vs zerg on metal. So you just do +1 carapace on your mutalisks. This results in 22/2 = 11 dmg per missle. Being vs explosive it's 5 or 6 dmg per missle, adding 1 armor results in 4/5 damage per missle, so your mutalisk will suffer 9 damage for every goliath that fires at it. pwnt?
If you read the thread Chill quoted, it is stated there that armor is deducted from damage before any size/weapon calculations. So, +1 golies do 2x12 damage, with +1 carapace, that becomes 2x11 damage or 11 damage after armor type reduction (to be perfectly precise, 2x5,5 damage, and yes, fractional damage is possible). Air carapace doesn't cancel goliath damage, in fact, no upgrade can make anything more durable vs something due to these mechanics, the best you can hope for is parity (zealot vs zergling, all upgrades cancel each other), usually it's either reduced effect (if the weapon upgrade adds at least +2 per hit, for example, dragoon or goliath air attack) or even completely neglible (any kind of upgrading vs tanks or reavers, since the difference between 99 damage and 100 damage is hardly important).
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Yeah, ok, I was wrong about the armor but aren't goliath anti-air attacks explosive?
And if so, doesn't that mean 50% damage to small units.
And if so, doesn't that mean they deal 50% damage to mutas?
So +1 would be 22/1 = 11/2 = 5/6 (per missile). So I was quite close. Not "very" wrong. They will take 11 damage per hit. (initially said 9).
Either way, 11 damage per hit is seriously weak, no?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
11 damage per hit is neither weak not strong because you have to take into account what takes that damage.
Even though such comparisons are retarded, mutas do even less damage to golies (9 huh) and cost more. They also have less range. Now, that was completely meaningless, what is meaningful is that explosive vs small doesn't mean the latter is triumphant. Hydras rape zealots every day, goons rape mutas in every single ZP/ZP team game, goons with micro rape marines, tanks rape zealots etc. It's all about build timings and getting the required numbers at the right time. PvZ doesn't allow to get enough dragoons to be safe vs muta because of the early game difficulties. TvZ on some maps does allow a fast expansion AND an in-time transition into golies.
You were wrong because you articulated how upgrading carapace would make mutas do better vs golies. Actually, goliath damage goes up from 10 to 11 in that situation, so no, carapace is not that cool.
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On October 23 2007 10:58 BluzMan wrote:
11 damage per hit is neither weak not strong because you have to take into account what takes that damage.
Even though such comparisons are retarded, mutas do even less damage to golies (9 huh) and cost more. They also have less range. Now, that was completely meaningless, what is meaningful is that explosive vs small doesn't mean the latter is triumphant. Hydras rape zealots every day, goons rape mutas in every single ZP/ZP team game, goons with micro rape marines, tanks rape zealots etc. It's all about build timings and getting the required numbers at the right time. PvZ doesn't allow to get enough dragoons to be safe vs muta because of the early game difficulties. TvZ on some maps does allow a fast expansion AND an in-time transition into golies.
You were wrong because you articulated how upgrading carapace would make mutas do better vs golies. Actually, goliath damage goes up from 10 to 11 in that situation, so no, carapace is not that cool.
You're cute.
Well, you're right, some comparisons are retarded. But the fact that goliaths deal less damage to mutas means that muta is a direct counter to mech terran. If mutas were large they would be worthless. And even if they cost more, they have that extra thinghie called mobility. So you can use them to harass AND fight goliaths. When going a large m&m force they're just good at harassing, then you have to switch to lurkers. But vs mech, you can use them for fighting too. That keeps the terran on the edge. Also you're missing the fact that mutas clump together and have semi-splash damage (even if little, does count), and that they have shorter cooldown, and so on.
Also, hydras rape zealots every day? Then why do protosses go zealot/archon/storm 80% of the time? A fe protoss with +1/speed zeals will be able to face a 2-expo tier 1 zerg if he didn't fuck up the start. (i.e. losing a lot till speed and +1 is up). And zealots ARE good vs hydra especially BECAUSE hydras deal explosive damage. The only good argument you can bring is "corsairs rape mutas". Yes, they do. But siege tanks don't really rape zealots, it's more like the other way around.
And finally, you're saying that carapace is not good because... ? I think terran should get armor. Not attack. And zergs should do the same, unless terran gets armor, in which case zerg should get attack. Why is carapace not good? Goliath +1 attack means that mutas will take 12 damage (6 per rocket). +1 carapace will make them take 11 (5.5 per rocket). Why is that not cool?
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once again, my eyes have been opened...
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man....its a mass thing...
Sometimes, mass units of [insert unit here] will overcome [insert unit here].
Ever seen oov or nada just blow it up with like 50 seige tanks? they dont even care about statis or the zlots; they just trample the toss.
Its the same with the mass hydras / mass whatever else there is.
And gols dont completely suck vs mutas; its just taht they are kind of immobile compared to marines when defending a base.
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Damage calculation:
+ Show Spoiler +1. Reduction from splash zone(damage is multiplied by 0.25/0.5/1.0)
2. Armor amount reduction
3. Armor type reduction
If it's a protoss unit and:
a) Currently has no shields, just the armor type and amount of the unit are used.
b) It has shields, the shield upgrade amount is used and the armor type takes 100% from everything. If this attack depletes the shields, the leftover damage after depleting the shields is calculated again as in case a)
The minimum damage from an attack is 0.5 and this does not apply twice for the separate shield/hp calculations for protoss units.
Damage amount is rounded to 1/256.
Units with "special" attacks:
+ Show Spoiler +
Zealot - 2 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade
Scout Air - 2 attacks by 14 + 1 per upgrade
Goliath Air - 2 attacks by 10 + 2 per upgrade
Firebat - 3 attacks by 8 + 1 per upgrade, even burrowed lurkers can be hit by all 3 attacks, it just depends on the angle of attack(the amount shoed is hardcoded to be the damage of 2 of the attacks added up, but all three are upgraded and each deals 8 damage base)
Lurker - several attacks by 20 + 2 per upgrade, with the restriction that only 1 attack can hit a single unit and all of them have only 100% splash(the 50% and 25% areas are the same as the 100%, so a unit can't take partial damage from the lurker's attack). A bug can override this rule, this happens when the lurker dies the exact moment it attacks, then a unit can be hit by several of the attacks, it's easily noticable with full hp marines dying to a single lurker.
Valk - 8 attacks by 6 + 1 per upgrade, if there are multiple units in the 100% splash zone, only one will take 100% damage and the others will take 50%. The same aplies to corsairs.
Mutalisk bounces deal 1/3 less than the previous bounce, for example +1 damage muta against 3 targets with 1 armor will deal 10 - 1 = 9 on the first hit, 10 / 3 - 1 = 2.333...(rounded to the nearest 1/256) on the second hit and 10 / 9 - 1 = 0.111... upped to 0.5, which is the minimum damage, on the third hit.
Devourer spores increase damage from each attack by 1 per spore, this includes spell damage.
Not an unit attack, but since it affects attacks: Defensive matrix reduces attack damage to the minimum - 0.5, this includes spell damage. The total damage prevented is 250, but this does not acount the minimum damage inflicted or the unit's armor, so a zergling with 5 damage will perish the shield in 50 hits and still deal 25 damage, no matter the target's armor and the end effect will be 225 damage absorbed on a unit with 0 armor and even less on a unit with several points of armor(if the target has 5 armor, for example, the Defensive Matrix will NOT make any difference).
An exception to these 2 is the plague, which doesn't deal damage, but directly removes hp, so it doesn't interact with defensive matrix or acid spores(even if you change plague's attack type in the .dat files it doesn't change the spell's effect at all).
Nukes deal:
Against units/buildings with 750 or less total maximum HP + shields -> 500, 250, 125 explosive damage.
Against units/buildings with 750 or more total maximum HP + shields ->
2/3, 1/3, 1/6 of the total maximum HP + shields.
The three values are for the 100%, 50% and 25% splash zones ofc.
Burrowed units and Dark Swarm mechanics:
+ Show Spoiler +
Burrowed units take only 100% damage splash. If they are in the 25% or 50% zone they will take no damage at all. You can test it even with a nuke - burrowed units near the end of the damage zone will take no damage at all, while unburrowed will.
Dark Swarm makes range units attack infront of the target, so units with no splash attack don't hit their target at all.
Reaver's scarab is a melee unit, so it doesn't effect it(Something interesting - if you press stop on a reaver, which has a scarab on the field, the scarab will explode dealing no damage).
Firebats deal most of their damage with their 100% splash, so they deal damage to burrowed units under swarm, they also deal line splash and fire exactly at the target, not infront of it.
Lurkers also can't really fire infront of their target, so they always hit and they deal all of their damage in 100% splash.
Tanks won't hit a burrowed lurker thay are aiming at, because the 100% damage zone does not reach the target(the radii on their 100% splash is 10, they normally hit a bit infront of their target and Dark Swarm makes them hit even more off)
High Archons as Siege Tanks can't hit the burrowed unit they are aiming at(under swarm), their 100% damage splash zone has a radii of 3 and they attack infront of their target, if they are too close to it, the actuall attack sprite will appear behind the archon or on top of it.
P.S. If I missed something post about it and I'll add it
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I just wanted to add that corsairs can be similar to zealots attacks. Imagine if sair damage was 10 but with half the attack rate. And instead of 1 shot it was divided into 2. Same concept.
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Imagine adding the same concept to something else... then the "something else" will have the same concept... wtf are you smoking man???
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Norway28630 Posts
cubedin the fact is you wrote "this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech"
it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why muta ling is good vs terran mech. then you follow up giving completely wrong calculations..
other than the line "muta ling is good vs terran mech", every single thing in your post was wrong. you wrote that goliaths +1 attack deal 22 damage, which is wrong, it's 24, you thought armour was subtracted after size, that's wrong.. I don't understand how you can be offended by me saying your post was very wrong, when it had almost no correct parts in it.
mutaling isn't even that great, lings kind of blow against mech. muta hydra, while more gas costly, is much much better. the main counter is never engaging his main force though.
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On October 23 2007 22:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
cubedin the fact is you wrote "this is why muta/ling is good vs terran mech"
it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with why muta ling is good vs terran mech. then you follow up giving completely wrong calculations..
other than the line "muta ling is good vs terran mech", every single thing in your post was wrong. you wrote that goliaths +1 attack deal 22 damage, which is wrong, it's 24, you thought armour was subtracted after size, that's wrong.. I don't understand how you can be offended by me saying your post was very wrong, when it had almost no correct parts in it.
mutaling isn't even that great, lings kind of blow against mech. muta hydra, while more gas costly, is much much better. the main counter is never engaging his main force though.
I wasn't offended, I just said it wasn't very wrong since the end result was 1 or 2 points of damage off what it should be. I would consider very wrong not calculating the explosive part or the 2x damage, that's all. I'm sorry if I seemed offended, I was just trying to explain myself.
I don't know about the mutaling part though, I guess it's about gameflow. Muta hydra does sound better but mutaling means you have speedlings so you could have harassed terran before he started meching too, since terrans that mech are rather vulnerable in the beginning, before the mass golis start.
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Essentially, if Zerg and Protoss are always equal in Carapace and Ground Weapon upgrades, respectively, it'll take 3 attacks for a Zealot to take down a Zergling.
The number only drops to 2 attacks if Protoss keeps ahead on upgrades.
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On October 24 2007 00:07 Lhyviathan wrote:
Essentially, if Zerg and Protoss are always equal in Carapace and Ground Weapon upgrades, respectively, it'll take 3 attacks for a Zealot to take down a Zergling.
The number only drops to 2 attacks if Protoss keeps ahead on upgrades.
Also note that 3 carapace lings vs 0 attack zealots will die in 4 hits, not 3. This usually doesn't matter, but say you were going reav/sair and hadn't gotten any ground unit grades, and you've got a lot of minerals and are considering finishing him off with zeals, be very very scared of lings.
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On October 23 2007 01:08 Leath wrote:
Firebat hits 2. It says three because against disproportionately large units (Ultralisk) the flame will do one extra hit adding up to 3 hits.
Wow, i learned something :D.
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If a zergling is running there is a small chance of the firebat hitting him 3 times (basically it looks as if the ling was trying to hit the firebat, not run past him)
Also a zealot can be killed while hitting an unit and only deal 8 damage :D
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Someone want to write a guide on upgrades (focuses on the ones that commonly change games)? Something like that could really help people like myself, who never thought about them in this much depth o.o I was wondering why my PvZ was Godly against some players, and pathetic against others, and now I'm pretty sure it has something to do with ups XD
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lololol
Did I miss it or you did not add when siege tank shoots inside the swarm and trying to hit a unit, siegen tank will actually shoot near it (as you say in front of it), but if another unit is standing there it will get full damage from tank.
So tank can shoot accidentally false units inside the swarm..same goes for Archon I think?
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On October 23 2007 02:15 Liquid`Drone wrote:
thats not why goliaths suck vs mutas, mutas have 0 base armor and zerg will almost never have upgraded armor. goliath vs mutalisk battles aren't affected by this. the reason why goliaths suck vs mutas is that they deal explosive damage..
this IS why carriers are able to survive for such a long period of time against goliaths tho. (especially upgraded carriers)
3 attack goliaths deal 32 damage vs air with 0 armor, but only 18 damage against a +3 armor carrier, or 24 against a carrier with 0 armor
or in the event of a goliath not being upgraded, it deals a base damage of 12 against carriers..
Thus proving that people like me who haven't played the game with any kind of seriousness for over a year should refrain from commenting on it.
My bad.
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United States24660 Posts
Whenever I read all these in depth discussions about damage types and calculations, it makes me wonder how much of this information isn't available in official documents that have been published by Blizzard. How much of it is word of mouth based on what fans have observed?
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Actually, most explanations are already given in the official Starcraft Compendium website under unit stats. The only info not given is whether armor is subtracted before explosive damage reduction. It seems (according to people in this thread) that armor calculations are done first.
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On October 26 2007 11:30 DD-FRIeZa wrote:
lololol
Did I miss it or you did not add when siege tank shoots inside the swarm and trying to hit a unit, siegen tank will actually shoot near it (as you say in front of it), but if another unit is standing there it will get full damage from tank.
So tank can shoot accidentally false units inside the swarm..same goes for Archon I think?
Yes, it will, but only if you're specificly not targetting the closest unit(which tanks usually do, so you have to manually target units in the back). Archons have a tiny 100% splash zone and they have to be on top of the burrowed unit to actually hit it, so it's kind of ineffective
Unburrowed units will take partial damage, even if directly targeted, but it's still more effective to target the units in the back, so the front ones take 100% damage.
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so in ur opinion in carrier vs liath is better to upgrade first shiled?
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On October 23 2007 11:33 CubEdIn wrote:
Also, hydras rape zealots every day? Then why do protosses go zealot/archon/storm 80% of the time?
Because storm makes it very hard if not impossible to properly micro large masses of hydra versus a speed zealot army, thats why, which is already hard because of the sheer numbers involved. Hydras own zealots with room and time to manoeuvre, even if zeals are speed upgraded. Also, protoss units take full damage to their shields, which is an interesting fact that really explains a lot of things about the matchup.
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EPT
