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On January 07 2009 14:39 meegrean wrote:
Thanks for the transcription.
I have an idea that Zerg should use zerglings in the midgame as minesweepers instead of hydralisks. Just send one zergling at a time around the map to clear the spider mines instead of having the possibility of 5-10 hydralisks exploding to a lucky mine. Guardians should also be used more often in the later stages instead of ultralisks or defilers, as mentioned in the audio.
That's pretty common to use lings in that way.
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On January 07 2009 15:50 lgdDante wrote:
That's pretty common to use lings in that way.
Then why do Korean progamers keep losing hydralisks to mines?
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On January 07 2009 16:32 meegrean wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 15:50 lgdDante wrote:
That's pretty common to use lings in that way. Then why do Korean progamers keep losing hydralisks to mines?
They just like to hear the commentators go crazy.
seriously though, I don't know. Maybe they don't stream lings because the terran will position vultures to stop it from working, if they haven't already, and so they're not going to get anywhere without hydras anyway.
Also, doing that is only a one-time cure. Once you place the hatch, it'll get harassed soon enough when the terran realizes there's no more mine there, and if he's smart (like most progamers), he'll have placed new mines in the path. Either way, you're going to need hydras to protect your expo when you get it.
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Lings are a good idea. except every mech unit is ranged and kills a ling in 3 shots or less.
Zergling mine clearing is actually really ineffective and costs not just zergslings(money) but larva (macro) against a super macro playstyle, I use mutas to clear mines unless they are in my way at expos
edited for coherance. I wrote this out to quickly.
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On January 07 2009 16:46 AttackZerg wrote:
Zergling mine clearly is actually really effective and costs no just zergslings(money) but larva
Wow good point.
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On January 07 2009 16:37 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 16:32 meegrean wrote:On January 07 2009 15:50 lgdDante wrote:
That's pretty common to use lings in that way. Then why do Korean progamers keep losing hydralisks to mines? They just like to hear the commentators go crazy. seriously though, I don't know. Maybe they don't stream lings because the terran will position vultures to stop it from working, if they haven't already, and so they're not going to get anywhere without hydras anyway. Also, doing that is only a one-time cure. Once you place the hatch, it'll get harassed soon enough when the terran realizes there's no more mine there, and if he's smart (like most progamers), he'll have placed new mines in the path. Either way, you're going to need hydras to protect your expo when you get it.
This is correct.
I was talking to Day about this build before he did the recording, bring about 6ish hydras to your expo and make sure you have some at home at your natural. Use your first 2 lords that you were already scouting with to check expos. Don't upgrade ovie speed til after you've expanded a frickload and are using mutas a bit.
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WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
No more freewin Mech TvZ
No worries merz.
Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle.
The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide.
Sorry Zergs *evil laugh*
thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that
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Thanks motbob, qrs fro transcribing!
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Day 9, would you have anything to say about defending against the "timing push" coming from Terran right as your expansions pop but you don't have any drones on them yet? Are you supposed to have a big enough army to stomp all over it? I for one can't stop it(And seems like many progamers can't either), I wonder if I pump too many drones or if it's my bad micro.
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On January 07 2009 08:15 Day[9] wrote:
I would have written, but instead i just ranted for 25 minutes.
hope everyone finds this useful because i'm right
It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think?
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
I've always thought to myself "What if Progamers put defilers in their overlords and kinda used it like Templars inside shuttles?" Sure Zerg players have to move their hands around fast and it gets annoying but it seems very useful
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On January 07 2009 20:50 Shikyo wrote:
Day 9, would you have anything to say about defending against the "timing push" coming from Terran right as your expansions pop but you don't have any drones on them yet? Are you supposed to have a big enough army to stomp all over it? I for one can't stop it(And seems like many progamers can't either), I wonder if I pump too many drones or if it's my bad micro.
After you use hydras to get a third base, your on 3 gas, making 12 mutas to keep them at home isn't too hard. If they have alot of early gols -> sunken/hydra is good, if they have early tank, then they won't have enough gols to defend there main or fight straight up.
Do not be scared of sunkens, sometimes 7 or 8 or 9 or 10 of them can do amazing things.
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late game when you already have a shit ton of units/bases and hive, swarm/plague+lurker is still very good vs mech especially when trying to crack a nat defense or something. And pre plagued goliaths get dropped pretty quickly to a muta/ling army.
PS- Day you didn't say anything about positioning or battling vs mech in that mid/late game.
Do you favor hotkeying units groups across the map or do you favor hotkeying more hatches and just powerhousing a more piled group of units?
I don't really like guardians ever being used as main army vs terran. A) they will still have vessel and iradiate (maybe less than MnM but at least like 3-4), B) Goliaths do full damage to them and have equal range with a shit ton more speed/attack speed and are cheaper, C) Terrans usually have excess minerals to blow on lotss of turrets which buy time for goliath/vessel (if they don't already have a small group at the expo), C) the extra gas/mins on more mutalisk is better with a hydra/ling army anyways. Why?, because 1) They create a psychological omnious cloud of glaives and just floating over their units so they can't micro hit and run in a battle (you really can't see shit, it's like wc3; you just know you're being overrun and panic as T), 2) They can chase down straggler units or retreating armies, 3) They can scout and kill uprising expos much more effectively, 4) They absorb much more damage than guardians do- this helps your lings and hydras live longer and tanks will start splashing lings closer to goliaths.
I'm obviously thinking on terms of more open maps like python.
With maps where there are lots of cliffs and tight bases guardians can do better but I still like mutas more.
PPS- Ensnare is good later game as well.
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On January 07 2009 14:39 meegrean wrote:
Thanks for the transcription.
I have an idea that Zerg should use zerglings in the midgame as minesweepers instead of hydralisks. Just send one zergling at a time around the map to clear the spider mines instead of having the possibility of 5-10 hydralisks exploding to a lucky mine. Guardians should also be used more often in the later stages instead of ultralisks or defilers, as mentioned in the audio.
the error in this logic is that you actually need to clear mines in the midgame. you'll be able to deal w/ mines later w/ overlords and whatnot
[edit]
i realize i didn't directly address what you said haha. instead i should say "consider the fact that you don't really need to kill off mines early. Sure there are types of play where you'll need to do an early push, in which case you should experiment with lings/overlords to see which you like best."
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On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that
Care to elaborate? How can current progamers get around the problem of slow mech build ups? It's not like stats changed that much over time.
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On January 07 2009 21:10 hymn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 08:15 Day[9] wrote:
I would have written, but instead i just ranted for 25 minutes.
hope everyone finds this useful because i'm right It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think?
I agree plague is not bad but how would you get of a plague on 5000 tanks and 10000 goliaths? If you engage a mech army it will the THE attack. THE attack which will decide if you lose or win the game. It's not like you can attack, suicide your army, get a few plagues off.
The only option would be plaguing during battle but then it wouldnt be as good but stil, it wont be bad. What I'm trying to say you can't get a plague of unless its during that gigantic battle.
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On January 07 2009 22:50 StRyKeR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
No more freewin Mech TvZ No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that How can current progamers get around the problem of slow mech build ups? It's not like stats changed that much over time.
build ups? i dont understand this..
well basically its a good guide vs the old mechstrats coz they are just like he said. move out with big blob 25tanks(not rly) etc.. But the new mechstrats are not like this.
Anyway i don't want to derail this thread, but i really think that looking at what jaedong does for example is a good idea, even if he loses.
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On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that
you are absolutely totally incorrect
i rambled for 25 minutes and gave a loose guide to a potential build build founded on the logic I provided for a specific deviation on an example map. You seem to assume that i completely ignored the possibility of a midgame push. In reality, you can watch the terran closely enough and be prepared by flooding with units right before he attacks (similar to how protoss players stick w/ dragoons and then flood with speedzealots before a terran push). Remember, zerg is much better against mech in small numbers so zerg is unusually flexible against a terran player early on. After holding off such a mid-game push, zerg still needs to focus on an economy. The only difference is the timing.
Allow me to provide a brief explanation: Suppose you are vs a meching terran player and we'll arbitrarily label the "midgame" as that period where terran has just gotten 2 bases but not many factories. He's powering up and getting ready to make alot of units. Again, suppose this "midgame" occurs between 8-11 minutes (arbitrary numbers i'm making up on the spot, its probably earlier in reality). In a normal game, zerg plans to use 8-11 minutes as the time to make as many drones/expoes as possible, BUT STILL ENOUGH GROUND UNITS TO NOT DIE TO AN IMMEDIATE PUSH. Typically, no attack occurs in this "midgame" period, and zerg moves through with his plan, getting ready for the "endgame" at 12 minutes (again a totally made up number). HOWEVER, suppose (as you were concerned) the terran player pushes out at 7-8 minutes! Zerg has some ground units and begins to make NOTHING but hydras to hold off the push. Zerg positions his units, surrounds, and kills push. At this point, zerg needs to resume his normal game plan. DOUBLEHOWEVER, since both players made more units than economy early, the "midgame period" now occurs from 10-13 minutes. The key difference between a mediocre player and an excellent player is that excellent players realize this 10-13 midgame is effectively no different from the 8-11 midgame. The gameplan of an expert player can be bent like bamboo, but always straightens back out to his original plan.
(Obviously, you will sometimes opt to follow transitions to different types of play. For instance, if terran started going MnM after the 7-8 minute push, zerg would take a drastically different endplan).
To claim that the early midgame push "negates the whole theory" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of starcraft strategy beyond a basic level. It is precisely these kinds of self-paralyzing conclusions that cause permanent stagnation of a player's play. The nature of builds is not a "direct guide to follow." Rather, builds are basic gameplans with huge numbers of subtle transitions and variations. I suggest you take the build i outlined, play around with it lots, and find what you like and dislike. You might find that you enjoy lairing before making a den, or that you like getting speed AND range before lair. You might find an excellent purpose for getting overlord speed range very quickly to scout the terran's main in anticipation for that early push (and to help clear mines). I implicitly assume that all players will change my outline drastically to suit their personal preferences. Again, I provided the guide as an example of how to form a concrete gameplan based upon underlying logic.
Lastly, I apologize for taking this rant out on you. I have such a pent up frustration with the strategy forums I read everywhere because of the crippling mindset of the forumgoers. It's not that the strategies are wrong, it's that players seem to lock themselves into a self-created cage that will forever prevent them from learning and improving. Before Bisu, forumgoers mocked protosses who made too many corsairs early game. Before Jaedong, forumgoers mocked ZergMan for attempting to use queens vs terran, that queens were a "totally inefficient buy" against zerg. Before Fantasy, forumgoers relentlessly stuck to MnM. In virtually all cases, the unquestioned mockery came from virtually no experience with the unorthodox. It is precisely this type of logic that has motivated me to create an education video series entitled "construction a build," the art of improving and forming solid gameplay on your own.
Please pester me to work on this! (and again, apologies to anotherday since he's a nice man who meant no harm w/ a 2 sentence post haha)
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On January 07 2009 22:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 22:50 StRyKeR wrote:On January 07 2009 18:54 AnOth3rDAy wrote:WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
No more freewin Mech TvZ No worries merz. Its a nice guide but it is good vs the old mechstyle. The new mechstyle is all about the early midgame push, which neglates the whole theory of this guide. Sorry Zergs *evil laugh* thats why progamers don't do this build its not coz they are stupid or anything like that How can current progamers get around the problem of slow mech build ups? It's not like stats changed that much over time. build ups? i dont understand this.. well basically its a good guide vs the old mechstrats coz they are just like he said. move out with big blob 25tanks(not rly) etc.. But the new mechstrats are not like this. Anyway i don't want to derail this thread, but i really think that looking at what jaedong does for example is a good idea, even if he loses.
My opinions of mech existed long before Jaedong was ever a household name. The game where jaedong played similarly to how i described was a relief for me to see: a zerg player actually attacking mech at a fundamental level. I'm not so unsophisticated a player that I see what Jaedong does and say "wow, everyone should do that."
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On January 07 2009 21:10 hymn wrote:Show nested quote +On January 07 2009 08:15 Day[9] wrote:
I would have written, but instead i just ranted for 25 minutes.
hope everyone finds this useful because i'm right It makes perfect sense. I only would recommend the Defiler's Plague vs mech. It really does wonders, cripples all the mech army for good, don't you think?
yes definitely. Again, defilers are great, but shouldn't be thought of as the backbone of your army
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EPT
