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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:54 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote:
8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace?
And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc.
Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then?
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On January 06 2009 01:58 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 01:52 Caller wrote:
you could also use them to mind control the ultralisks that they have in their ultraling push
8 damage lings vs. 6 armor ultras = lol
and sometimes they go carapace first so 2/3 lings vs. 2/4 ultras... lol
da's are so useful, they're like a protoss science vessel with all their crap (feedback = emp, mind control = lol, maelstrom = mass bio lockdown) 8 damage lings vs 3 armour ultras I'm afraid. You'd be amazed how fast those fuckers go down. Hydras rape them too. But even so it's kinda useful just to get rid of the ultra, the fact they become yours is a bonus.
MC ultra only really works well if he's pumping ultras hard and has a low ling count (aka he's burning through gas like a lunatic), otherwise maelstrom is always better. 1-2 DA's a few reavers in your ball and it's a very uphill battle for the Zerg.
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On January 06 2009 09:14 Kau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 02:54 Kwark wrote:On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote:
8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace?
And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc. Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then?
Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;;
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On January 06 2009 06:43 aokces wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 02:56 Liquid`Drone wrote:
ye kwark is correct.. if you steal a 5/3 ultra it becomes a 2/0 ultra. So MC steals upgrades like move speed or sight range, but not weapons/armor?
That is correct
On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 09:14 Kau wrote:On January 06 2009 02:54 Kwark wrote:On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote:
8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace?
And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc. Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then? Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;;
Once again, correct.
The fact is though that yes there will be 5 damage lings hence why Mind Controlling an ultralisk in an ult/ling army is a waste because in most cases that 1 ultralisk is probably going to get pummeled by at least 8 zerglings, which is 40 damage a hit with fully upgraded zerglings. 10 Hits from these zerglings will pretty much take it down, which is probably less than 5 seconds of battle for that one ultralisk. Using 1 or even 2 maelstroms will prove more beneficial in the long run. This is just rough guessing I actually think a zergling attacks about than 2-3 times per second... unless this info is available? (8 Zerglings at +3 Melee can take out 1 Ultralisk with 1+2 armor in ~2.4 seconds)
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
This seems most effective against the neozerg Jaedong style zvp, where they open hydra'ish tech then switch over to mutas later on in the game for snipage, rather than an outright muta opening.
I really like the idea, although I'm not sure how many zergs would do this kind of switch at my lowly levels.
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I think most Protoss players would prefer to drop the 2 dark templars in the enemy base and hopefully snipe a few drones instead. Dark archon is quite costly, but I'm sure its benefits could outweigh its costs.
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United States12240 Posts
I can't really see a situation where you wouldn't want to invest in at least one DA mid-game to protect your HTs or base. The problem is really that DAs benefit so much from theorycrafting. Stacked Mutas? Maelstrom and Storm or Cannons. Queen or Defiler coming to Broodling or Plague? Feedback it. Ultraling? Mind Control is a net gain.
Then again, Defilers theorycrafted extremely well against Terran years ago, and relatively recently came into their own as a staple unit ZvT, so perhaps there is hope down the line for the neglected DA.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 09:14 Kau wrote:On January 06 2009 02:54 Kwark wrote:On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote:
8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace?
And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc. Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then? Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;;
Oh right. I'm retarded T_T
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so anytime's game... can anyone link me? ANytime vs what.
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For those who use DA regularly, just how useful is Feedback? It's good in theory but you have to be pretty damn good to feedback the defilers/queens BEFORE they cast their spell. The spell's worthless if they have no mana.
On January 06 2009 12:03 evanthebouncy! wrote:
so anytime's game... can anyone link me? ANytime vs what.
Not sure if the vod is up yet. It was yesterday's Anytime vs GGPlay in the proleagues. I'm not sure if that DA actually earned its worth, since he sacrificed storm in order to get the DA + Maelstrom ready early.
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Feedback is instantaneous has a pretty good range and it is ridiculously easy to use, a single dark archon can cast a lot of feedbacks really fast.
And the best way to use is by sending the dark archons towards the opponents army before he attacks. And then feedback him to death.
Also, feedback damages 1 for every unit of mana he has, so a defiler needs 80 mana remaining to be killed, which is not uncommon at all.
It works even better vs high templars however.
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On January 06 2009 12:44 baubo wrote:For those who use DA regularly, just how useful is Feedback? It's good in theory but you have to be pretty damn good to feedback the defilers/queens BEFORE they cast their spell. The spell's worthless if they have no mana. Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 12:03 evanthebouncy! wrote:
so anytime's game... can anyone link me? ANytime vs what. Not sure if the vod is up yet. It was yesterday's Anytime vs GGPlay in the proleagues. I'm not sure if that DA actually earned its worth, since he sacrificed storm in order to get the DA + Maelstrom ready early.
Both of the zerg casters need more mana than they have hp (it hink?) so its basically an instant kill
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attack/armor upgrades from evolution chamber does not carry over with mind controlled units.
the only things that carry over are tech upgrades, such as speed/range for hydras and burrow. lurker aspect doesn't carry over however.
i have tested this.
On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 01:58 Kwark wrote:On January 06 2009 01:52 Caller wrote:
you could also use them to mind control the ultralisks that they have in their ultraling push
8 damage lings vs. 6 armor ultras = lol
and sometimes they go carapace first so 2/3 lings vs. 2/4 ultras... lol
da's are so useful, they're like a protoss science vessel with all their crap (feedback = emp, mind control = lol, maelstrom = mass bio lockdown) 8 damage lings vs 3 armour ultras I'm afraid. You'd be amazed how fast those fuckers go down. Hydras rape them too. But even so it's kinda useful just to get rid of the ultra, the fact they become yours is a bonus. MC ultra only really works well if he's pumping ultras hard and has a low ling count (aka he's burning through gas like a lunatic), otherwise maelstrom is always better. 1-2 DA's a few reavers in your ball and it's a very uphill battle for the Zerg.
i agrea with this. 2 or 3 DA's and 4 or 5 HT's are insurance vs all zerg air units. while you spend the rest of your money on reavers and mass cannons (mass expanding) or zealots.
edit: what if players opened up corsair+DT (2-4 dt's) and morphed them after harrassing, then switched to corsairs and reavers with DA/HT backup? this sounds very powerfull...
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On January 06 2009 13:04 Cloud wrote:
Feedback is instantaneous has a pretty good range and it is ridiculously easy to use, a single dark archon can cast a lot of feedbacks really fast.
And the best way to use is by sending the dark archons towards the opponents army before he attacks. And then feedback him to death.
Also, feedback damages 1 for every unit of mana he has, so a defiler needs 80 mana remaining to be killed, which is not uncommon at all.
It works even better vs high templars however.
I understand the point of insta-kill, just the matter of actually hitting the particular caster unit before they use it. Because once they do that, it's basically a waste of mana and unit.
I guess it can work as a sniper. DAs do have pretty high hit points and generally don't get attacked. Never tried it myself though.
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Netherlands6142 Posts
On January 06 2009 03:27 Pholon wrote:I don't see how MC is ever viable since you're as good as guaranteed to lose the DA. 2 Mealstorms would be much more useful + Show Spoiler +imo, even in stalemate you'd be better of getting a scout instead of the MC upgrade since they fly. Take that ultras! duhr.
I was kidding before, but here we go
+ Show Spoiler +
On January 06 2009 04:07 Cloud wrote:
Id say feedback is a much better spell, its for free, its spends 50 mana, it has some crazy range and its ridiculously easy to use. No idea why dark archons arent more used against defilers.
Because defilers aren't as big a problem to Protoss as they are to Terran?
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Netherlands6142 Posts
Well vs Terran swarm makes marines/golis useless and plague is pretty devastating vs MnM (mana drain) and anything Mech (Vessels most of all)
VS Protoss these spells do less damage since swarm doesn't work vs Zealots (Archons) and plague only reduced half the HP because of shields (to be fair, it's probably more like 66% effectiveness since shields take full damage etc but whatever) and I reckon you'd be better off with +1 storm.
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On January 06 2009 21:02 Pholon wrote:
Well vs Terran swarm makes marines/golis useless and plague is pretty devastating vs MnM (mana drain) and anything Mech (Vessels most of all)
VS Protoss these spells do less damage since swarm doesn't work vs Zealots (Archons) and plague only reduced half the HP because of shields (to be fair, it's probably more like 66% effectiveness since shields take full damage etc but whatever) and I reckon you'd be better off with +1 storm.
Swarm rapes Archons dude...
Edit: or did I misunderstand your post? Hm, no, I think not  Only the AoE proportion (~5 or something) of the damage hits under swarm by Archons.
Whenever a zerg goes mass lurk sunk spore at every possible place I could attack (doesn't happen too often anymore with the polished openers Protoss has nowadays - Zerg just can't afford it), I always get DAs to face the imminent ling + filer + ultra switch. Feedbacking defilers is good. And as your Archon numbers grow, you become unstoppable (like Free's army vs Jaedong in that game  [no he didn't use DAs, but I was referring to the tons of Archons] )
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On January 06 2009 18:58 Pholon wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 03:27 Pholon wrote:I don't see how MC is ever viable since you're as good as guaranteed to lose the DA. 2 Mealstorms would be much more useful + Show Spoiler +imo, even in stalemate you'd be better of getting a scout instead of the MC upgrade since they fly. Take that ultras! duhr. I was kidding before, but here we go + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoNuX-SLLyw&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875¤tpage=231 Show nested quote +On January 06 2009 04:07 Cloud wrote:
Id say feedback is a much better spell, its for free, its spends 50 mana, it has some crazy range and its ridiculously easy to use. No idea why dark archons arent more used against defilers. Because defilers aren't as big a problem to Protoss as they are to Terran?
LOL.... he GG's at the sight of a scout hehe.
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Nal_rA anyone? Tons of old progamers used to do that all the time, in fact, A pimpest play was not too long ago doing that..... gg
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EPT
