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tracer
Korea (South)693 Posts
Anytime's brilliant maelstrom hydra-raping play Yet what if there was a DA in the ball (hidden, perhaps), ready to maelstrom any clumped mutalisk group (which could subsequently be stormed to oblivion, saving the protoss from unnecessary templar loss and instantly putting the zerg down about 900-1000 gas)? Any thoughts? It seems like an effective counter, yet I don't recall seeing such a play before in a pro game. I'm gonna go play some ICCup to test it. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
As a Zerg user that would suck ass. I'd have to use frigging broodling to do any sniping. | ||
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NotSlayer_Boxer
United States7 Posts
It might be useful. Other units that the been ignored are coming into play now [Queens anyone?] so I don't see why DA would be a horrible idea. Maybe after a DT harass on an expansion. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
On January 05 2009 20:57 arb wrote: Id say the second zerg saw a dark archon coming they'd run maelstrom doesnt have a huge cast range either iirc The range is 10. | ||
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MasterReY
Germany2708 Posts
i want to see it :D | ||
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ExSoldier
378 Posts
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[X]Ken_D
United States4650 Posts
IMO if maelstorm was the default spell for DA, it would help protoss a lot in their matchup against zerg. | ||
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
On January 05 2009 20:22 village_idiot wrote: Stop giving Protoss users any strange ideas. As a Zerg user that would suck ass. I'd have to use frigging broodling to do any sniping. But if you switch to that we'll just start using that same DA for feedback  | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28712 Posts
you really need to like, discover the timing window though. I have also lost games because I got DA too early and didnt have sufficient storm against the hydras that came because he was actually only faking the spire.  but this idea IS worth exploring. not only can it win you some games but you look incredibly good while doing it. :D one amazingly awesome, but very expensive thing to do against someone you know has mutas out, is doing a storm drop with a DA hidden in the shuttle basically storm drop, leave your templars outside the shuttle and DA inside shuttle and wait for him to come with mutas to snipe them, then unload DA mael mutas storm mutas - profit. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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naonao
United States847 Posts
On January 05 2009 20:22 village_idiot wrote: Stop giving Protoss users any strange ideas. As a Zerg user that would suck ass. I'd have to use frigging broodling to do any sniping. Feedback to snipe the queens. | ||
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Shado.
United States187 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
8 damage lings vs. 6 armor ultras = lol and sometimes they go carapace first so 2/3 lings vs. 2/4 ultras... lol da's are so useful, they're like a protoss science vessel with all their crap (feedback = emp, mind control = lol, maelstrom = mass bio lockdown) | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 05 2009 20:57 arb wrote: Id say the second zerg saw a dark archon coming they'd run maelstrom doesnt have a huge cast range either iirc So then the zerg virtually wasted 1000/1000 because of 1 DA. | ||
KwarK
United States43241 Posts
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KwarK
United States43241 Posts
On January 06 2009 01:52 Caller wrote: you could also use them to mind control the ultralisks that they have in their ultraling push 8 damage lings vs. 6 armor ultras = lol and sometimes they go carapace first so 2/3 lings vs. 2/4 ultras... lol da's are so useful, they're like a protoss science vessel with all their crap (feedback = emp, mind control = lol, maelstrom = mass bio lockdown) 8 damage lings vs 3 armour ultras I'm afraid. You'd be amazed how fast those fuckers go down. Hydras rape them too. But even so it's kinda useful just to get rid of the ultra, the fact they become yours is a bonus. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. | ||
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
On January 06 2009 00:24 chameleonia wrote: But if you switch to that we'll just start using that same DA for feedback You'd have to be incredibly fast to use feedback on queens. They have so much range you don't see them coming before they've cast the spell already. Anyway, seriously, Protoss users. Don't even think about putting DAs with your early army, it's the midgame you're aiming at. Your race is at its peak in the midgame, so why not protect your high templars? DA has a range and vision of 10, which means the clumped mutas will have to either run away or die. Then, during the confrontation you can storm the living shit out of the Zerg user. Now that I think about it, I have no idea why Protoss doesn't use DA. It's just really dumb, kind of like not building a corsair to scout the Zerg. I mean, see how many times Jaedong has won by sniping the Templars with his mutas. Or any other Zerg for that matter. | ||
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KwarK
United States43241 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote: 8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace? And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:15 Cloud wrote: 8 damage vs 3 armour? who would ever go melee before carapace? And who would ever attack you without the additional +2 of ultras. The point is that you do not receive the carapace upgrades upon a mind control, only that +2 armor upgrade from the ultralisk cavern, which means you will only get 3 armor vs the 8 damage zerglings. The Mind Control ability is not really useful unless you have caught the zerg doing some early ultra shit cuz they think they have an ez win. It would be a good idea late game if you want to commit to DA's to make sure you upgrade the +50 mana first, then go for the maelstrom while you get 2-4 dark archons up. The problem I believe is that even with that +50 mana you don't get that energy bump like when a HT comes out of the gateway IIRC (I could be wrong on this). I love using DA's when I know I've won, but they are a huge risk if you lose them you have lost quite a bit of resources, and the dedication to produce them temporarily hinders your gateways from creating HT's, Goons, Zlots. I wouldn't bother even teching the MC unless you want to be a dick and MC a drone and start teching dual races (always funny, but very risky and time consuming). For this you should build only the buildings you need (for zergling mass with your toss units, and MC one of their zerglings to get the quick upgrades instead of having to tech hive. You really don't need to go to 3/3 1/1 is enough since you're doubling them, but this is a very silly strategy that should not be taken seriously :p. I would love to do some work seeing how effective DA's are in PvZ matches. I may see what I can find working my way up on ICC or if some people wanna test some builds and see where a DA build can fit? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28712 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28712 Posts
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:57 Liquid`Drone wrote: and MC is really great in stalemates, not really viable otherwise. true as hell... i once went MC / reaver / archon / storm vs zerg. needless to say i got raped, if i replaced maelstrom with MC, i wouldve repelled. ah well, lesson learned. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
imo, even in stalemate you'd be better of getting a scout instead of the MC upgrade since they fly. Take that ultras! duhr. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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KwarK
United States43241 Posts
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KwarK
United States43241 Posts
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hazz
United Kingdom570 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 06 2009 03:47 Hazz wrote: isn't the HT snipe midgame/late mid game? DA's are only really viable in the late game That's what we're trying to find out, if the DA's can be viable as a mid-game tool. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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KwarK
United States43241 Posts
On January 06 2009 03:47 Hazz wrote: isn't the HT snipe midgame/late mid game? DA's are only really viable in the late game You can get a maelstrom darchon out instead of 3rd and 4th stormer very easily. And strom is useful vs hydra too. | ||
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d(O.o)a
Canada5066 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28712 Posts
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naonao
United States847 Posts
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 06 2009 04:07 Cloud wrote: Id say feedback is a much better spell, its for free, its spends 50 mana, it has some crazy range and its ridiculously easy to use. No idea why dark archons arent more used against defilers. For the average mid-game PvZ would Feedback benefit you though? In most cases probably not since it's rare to see a defiler or a queen so early. | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
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aokces
United States309 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:56 Liquid`Drone wrote: ye kwark is correct.. if you steal a 5/3 ultra it becomes a 2/0 ultra. So MC steals upgrades like move speed or sight range, but not weapons/armor? | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On January 06 2009 02:54 Kwark wrote: A protoss who doesn't have carapace armour? Only the tech upgrades carry across. Not the stat ones. You get the speed if researched (and any ultras mced before zerg had speed also get speed when you mc a speed ultra), you get the armour upgrade research but to get the full 6 armour you need to mind control a drone and make evos etc. Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 06 2009 01:58 Kwark wrote: 8 damage lings vs 3 armour ultras I'm afraid. You'd be amazed how fast those fuckers go down. Hydras rape them too. But even so it's kinda useful just to get rid of the ultra, the fact they become yours is a bonus. MC ultra only really works well if he's pumping ultras hard and has a low ling count (aka he's burning through gas like a lunatic), otherwise maelstrom is always better. 1-2 DA's a few reavers in your ball and it's a very uphill battle for the Zerg. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On January 06 2009 09:14 Kau wrote: Wouldn't that mean that the zerglings only do 5 damage then? Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;; | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 06 2009 06:43 aokces wrote: So MC steals upgrades like move speed or sight range, but not weapons/armor? That is correct On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote: Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;; Once again, correct. The fact is though that yes there will be 5 damage lings hence why Mind Controlling an ultralisk in an ult/ling army is a waste because in most cases that 1 ultralisk is probably going to get pummeled by at least 8 zerglings, which is 40 damage a hit with fully upgraded zerglings. 10 Hits from these zerglings will pretty much take it down, which is probably less than 5 seconds of battle for that one ultralisk. Using 1 or even 2 maelstroms will prove more beneficial in the long run. This is just rough guessing I actually think a zergling attacks about than 2-3 times per second... unless this info is available? (8 Zerglings at +3 Melee can take out 1 Ultralisk with 1+2 armor in ~2.4 seconds) | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I really like the idea, although I'm not sure how many zergs would do this kind of switch at my lowly levels. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12238 Posts
Then again, Defilers theorycrafted extremely well against Terran years ago, and relatively recently came into their own as a staple unit ZvT, so perhaps there is hope down the line for the neglected DA. | ||
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote: Except that the Zerg user still owns the lings so all his upgrades stay? ;; Oh right. I'm retarded T_T | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 06 2009 12:03 evanthebouncy! wrote: so anytime's game... can anyone link me? ANytime vs what. Not sure if the vod is up yet. It was yesterday's Anytime vs GGPlay in the proleagues. I'm not sure if that DA actually earned its worth, since he sacrificed storm in order to get the DA + Maelstrom ready early. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
And the best way to use is by sending the dark archons towards the opponents army before he attacks. And then feedback him to death. Also, feedback damages 1 for every unit of mana he has, so a defiler needs 80 mana remaining to be killed, which is not uncommon at all. It works even better vs high templars however. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On January 06 2009 12:44 baubo wrote: For those who use DA regularly, just how useful is Feedback? It's good in theory but you have to be pretty damn good to feedback the defilers/queens BEFORE they cast their spell. The spell's worthless if they have no mana. Not sure if the vod is up yet. It was yesterday's Anytime vs GGPlay in the proleagues. I'm not sure if that DA actually earned its worth, since he sacrificed storm in order to get the DA + Maelstrom ready early. Both of the zerg casters need more mana than they have hp (it hink?) so its basically an instant kill | ||
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Pyro]v[aniac
United States147 Posts
the only things that carry over are tech upgrades, such as speed/range for hydras and burrow. lurker aspect doesn't carry over however. i have tested this. On January 06 2009 09:43 Mortality wrote: MC ultra only really works well if he's pumping ultras hard and has a low ling count (aka he's burning through gas like a lunatic), otherwise maelstrom is always better. 1-2 DA's a few reavers in your ball and it's a very uphill battle for the Zerg. i agrea with this. 2 or 3 DA's and 4 or 5 HT's are insurance vs all zerg air units. while you spend the rest of your money on reavers and mass cannons (mass expanding) or zealots. edit: what if players opened up corsair+DT (2-4 dt's) and morphed them after harrassing, then switched to corsairs and reavers with DA/HT backup? this sounds very powerfull... | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 06 2009 13:04 Cloud wrote: Feedback is instantaneous has a pretty good range and it is ridiculously easy to use, a single dark archon can cast a lot of feedbacks really fast. And the best way to use is by sending the dark archons towards the opponents army before he attacks. And then feedback him to death. Also, feedback damages 1 for every unit of mana he has, so a defiler needs 80 mana remaining to be killed, which is not uncommon at all. It works even better vs high templars however. I understand the point of insta-kill, just the matter of actually hitting the particular caster unit before they use it. Because once they do that, it's basically a waste of mana and unit. I guess it can work as a sniper. DAs do have pretty high hit points and generally don't get attacked. Never tried it myself though. | ||
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Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
On January 06 2009 03:27 Pholon wrote: I don't see how MC is ever viable since you're as good as guaranteed to lose the DA. 2 Mealstorms would be much more useful + Show Spoiler + imo, even in stalemate you'd be better of getting a scout instead of the MC upgrade since they fly. Take that ultras! duhr. I was kidding before, but here we go + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2009 04:07 Cloud wrote: Id say feedback is a much better spell, its for free, its spends 50 mana, it has some crazy range and its ridiculously easy to use. No idea why dark archons arent more used against defilers. Because defilers aren't as big a problem to Protoss as they are to Terran? | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Pholon
Netherlands6142 Posts
VS Protoss these spells do less damage since swarm doesn't work vs Zealots (Archons) and plague only reduced half the HP because of shields (to be fair, it's probably more like 66% effectiveness since shields take full damage etc but whatever) and I reckon you'd be better off with +1 storm. | ||
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Naib
Hungary4843 Posts
On January 06 2009 21:02 Pholon wrote: Well vs Terran swarm makes marines/golis useless and plague is pretty devastating vs MnM (mana drain) and anything Mech (Vessels most of all) VS Protoss these spells do less damage since swarm doesn't work vs Zealots (Archons) and plague only reduced half the HP because of shields (to be fair, it's probably more like 66% effectiveness since shields take full damage etc but whatever) and I reckon you'd be better off with +1 storm. Swarm rapes Archons dude... Edit: or did I misunderstand your post? Hm, no, I think not  Only the AoE proportion (~5 or something) of the damage hits under swarm by Archons.Whenever a zerg goes mass lurk sunk spore at every possible place I could attack (doesn't happen too often anymore with the polished openers Protoss has nowadays - Zerg just can't afford it), I always get DAs to face the imminent ling + filer + ultra switch. Feedbacking defilers is good. And as your Archon numbers grow, you become unstoppable (like Free's army vs Jaedong in that game [no he didn't use DAs, but I was referring to the tons of Archons] ) | ||
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Pyro]v[aniac
United States147 Posts
On January 06 2009 18:58 Pholon wrote: I was kidding before, but here we go + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoNuX-SLLyw&eurl=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=50875¤tpage=231 Because defilers aren't as big a problem to Protoss as they are to Terran? LOL.... he GG's at the sight of a scout hehe. | ||
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ToSs.Bag
United States201 Posts
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
but this sounds like a really good idea that could catch on if proves effective (aka once people see some top level foreign players do it and then are like oh it works let me try) | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Different level yo. DA's are gonna be the next step to standard~ Weooo | ||
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bp1696
United States288 Posts
On January 07 2009 02:24 SpiritAshura wrote: yea i seem to remember a pimpest play or something a few years ago where a protoss used maelstrom on a group of i think it was mostly greater spire level zerg air, couldnt think of their names or anything for the life of me though but this sounds like a really good idea that could catch on if proves effective (aka once people see some top level foreign players do it and then are like oh it works let me try) That was reach vs chojja 2005 + Show Spoiler + edit: actual youtube link put in | ||
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12238 Posts
On January 06 2009 21:02 Pholon wrote: Well vs Terran swarm makes marines/golis useless and plague is pretty devastating vs MnM (mana drain) and anything Mech (Vessels most of all) VS Protoss these spells do less damage since swarm doesn't work vs Zealots (Archons) and plague only reduced half the HP because of shields (to be fair, it's probably more like 66% effectiveness since shields take full damage etc but whatever) and I reckon you'd be better off with +1 storm. Don't discount the importance of plague against Protoss. The damage it inflicts is not counterable, and in a supply-capped situation, being able to weaken a large force like that by 50-66% presents an enormous advantage. Units can only be replaced at a certain rate. For example, if a small force takes about 60 seconds to create, and you are capable of eliminating an equal-size army in 15 seconds, that's 45 seconds of unimpeded damage you are inflicting to his peons or structures. | ||
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foppa
Canada451 Posts
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17731 Posts
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