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Hello all.
Recently, Ive been playing more and more TVT games as part of becoming good at all Terran Matchups. I usually dual starported, 14CCd, and 2facted, instead of going for that 1 Fact 1 Port. Now, this changed, after I played a A- Terran who 1 Fact 1 Ported me, using mines, 1 Tank, and wraith to destroy me. However, when I tried to replicate it in my many TVT games, I failed miserably, especially when I encountered either dual facts or dual ports. The strategy was more effective against the fast CC or 1fact CC.
The reason why I failed is because it seems to me that the 1 Fact 1 Port is taking little bits of every tech. I get some tanks and vultures and some wraiths. However, when I encounter these committed builds, I find myself with lack of units.
Against a 2fac, the opponent has more siege tanks and goliaths and with scans, get destroy my groundforce and air. Against dual ports, my wraiths cannot combat his larger wraith army and I do not invest in enough resources to fight it off with goliaths.
So, here's my questions:
Is this the correct way to look at the situation?
Are the 2fac and 2port direct counters to 1fact 1 port?
What are the pros and cons of this build?
After this build, should one push out or play defensive, and incorporate drops?
Thanks in advance for the help!
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there are variations of fac port, you can skip cloak and siege and get a fast expo, you can get cloak immediately and focus on wraiths and get a pretty quick expo, you can pump constant tanks and get siege and not get cloak and go for a hard rush designed to kill fac cc or double cc, or you can get both cloak and siege and go for a later, stronger rush. the last 2 options come pretty late expos and so you have to damage him or you'll be behind, unless he did an even more aggressive/late expo build.
getting vultures with fac port is not standard, tank/wraith is much more common. id guess the rationale behind it is that they wont have enough scans to deal with both mines and cloaked wraiths so the mines will stop the tank/gol timing attack, but tank/gol will roll 1 fac vulture mines anyway so its rather useless. stick with tank/wraith for now.
the safest version of the build is to get quick cloak and pump wraiths while getting a relatively fast expo. depending on what you scout you can cut tanks to get a quicker expo or not (if you see 1 fac cc get your own cc after 2 tanks or so, if you see 2 fac obviously tanks take priority) this build can adapt to all situations pretty easy.
if he 2 ports get an ebay and a faster expo with turrets, his initial wraiths wont do anything cuz you'll have faster cloak and by the time he could overpower you you have turrets, just transition to tank/gol with a better econ from there.
vs 2 fac you have cloaked wraiths and he'll have at most 1 scanner, but he will have a stronger army and you arent guaranteed a faster expo. 2 fac vs fac port isnt a guaranteed advantage to either side, all about how you play it out. your best bet is constant tanks + siege and set up a siege line outside your nat and pick at his shit with cloaked wraiths while expoing. transition into 3 fac tank as your expo goes up and do the thing where you siege just in range, outside of vision, of his siege line and use your wraiths to provide vision/kill his rax. practice that, its one of the most important things in tvt. this is the standard followup to fac port, taking advantage of the fact that he has to make goliaths so you'll have more tanks, but it leaves you with almost no anti air so watch out for a wraith switch from your opponent. if he has too solid a contain set up you can switch to tank gol drops.
the fac/port variations that dont include cloak are significantly more dangerous. the tank heavy one is designed solely as a fac cc killing build, and the fast expo fac/port is designed to defend the tank heavy fac/port, but is also ok vs fac cc. they both fail hard vs 2 port and vs 2 fac tank gol.
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I've been trying to get a build going like this. I usually get 3 marines and 2 vulture without the machine shop at first and try to rush and punish any kind of 1 fact FE and 14 CC. If the opponent is 2 fact the rush is 50/50 sometimes if does some damage and sometimes gets shut down, this may come down to no/wide/small ramp type maps and the distances between your mains. I've never won solely because of that rush though, but it does slow them down and force them to focus more on ground than anti-air. By the time the rush is almost dead, you can get your first wraith out fast and sometimes the ebay and armory are halfway done depending on their BO. I haven't played against too many 2 port to really understand how things should go, but depending on their ground force I'm pretty sure 3 marine 2 vulture can be overall delay the wraith count so that way your wraiths can still be effective.
To me it's a build to keep the opponent guessing as to what you might be going for, or at least that's what I've used it for.
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On December 13 2008 14:11 IdrA wrote:
there are variations of fac port, you can skip cloak and siege and get a fast expo, you can get cloak immediately and focus on wraiths and get a pretty quick expo, you can pump constant tanks and get siege and not get cloak and go for a hard rush designed to kill fac cc or double cc, or you can get both cloak and siege and go for a later, stronger rush. the last 2 options come pretty late expos and so you have to damage him or you'll be behind, unless he did an even more aggressive/late expo build.
getting vultures with fac port is not standard, tank/wraith is much more common. id guess the rationale behind it is that they wont have enough scans to deal with both mines and cloaked wraiths so the mines will stop the tank/gol timing attack, but tank/gol will roll 1 fac vulture mines anyway so its rather useless. stick with tank/wraith for now.
the safest version of the build is to get quick cloak and pump wraiths while getting a relatively fast expo. depending on what you scout you can cut tanks to get a quicker expo or not (if you see 1 fac cc get your own cc after 2 tanks or so, if you see 2 fac obviously tanks take priority) this build can adapt to all situations pretty easy.
if he 2 ports get an ebay and a faster expo with turrets, his initial wraiths wont do anything cuz you'll have faster cloak and by the time he could overpower you you have turrets, just transition to tank/gol with a better econ from there.
vs 2 fac you have cloaked wraiths and he'll have at most 1 scanner, but he will have a stronger army and you arent guaranteed a faster expo. 2 fac vs fac port isnt a guaranteed advantage to either side, all about how you play it out. your best bet is constant tanks + siege and set up a siege line outside your nat and pick at his shit with cloaked wraiths while expoing. transition into 3 fac tank as your expo goes up and do the thing where you siege just in range, outside of vision, of his siege line and use your wraiths to provide vision/kill his rax. practice that, its one of the most important things in tvt. this is the standard followup to fac port, taking advantage of the fact that he has to make goliaths so you'll have more tanks, but it leaves you with almost no anti air so watch out for a wraith switch from your opponent. if he has too solid a contain set up you can switch to tank gol drops.
the fac/port variations that dont include cloak are significantly more dangerous. the tank heavy one is designed solely as a fac cc killing build, and the fast expo fac/port is designed to defend the tank heavy fac/port, but is also ok vs fac cc. they both fail hard vs 2 port and vs 2 fac tank gol.
wow thanks!! , thats some really great advice.
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dont do that, at least not vs good players.
it was good when it was a suprise, but it got really popular recently so now everyone expects it and if they make a bunker or constant vultures it fails hard, because you have few+late tanks and no cloak while he has an exp up and 2 fac tank gol pumping.
and never ever do it vs 14 cc cuz theyre 100% going to have a bunker, and an even better econ.
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dear god that first post was sick idra ...
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CA10828 Posts
a great OP followed up by a great reply
this is how the strategy forum should work guys!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
i want to close this thread to preserve it for eternity unspoiled
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Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
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Wow, thanks Idra.
I played more TVT today and used mines vs. 14cc. It worked brilliantly...
Also, the 1fact 1 port with siege and cloak advice helped a lot. I set a siege contain outside and picked off literally 8 dropships with my wraiths. The transition into 3fac tanks was great.
The only game I lost was to a C+ korean who did a mass dropships and valk build <<
thanks!
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Awesome to get strategy advices from progamers 
Good for me I suck at TvT lol
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omg.. Idra giving advice in the strategy section... this site is too good to be true.
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On December 13 2008 21:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
all of that just for a contain? He'll still have asignificantly earlier expo then you and if his macro is decent, hes eventually going to overwhelm your contain or ignore it completely. If you're going to delay your own expo so much, it seems to me the only reasonable plan is to really threaten his nat, not just do a contain that his superior resources is going to allow him to break
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On December 14 2008 03:04 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 21:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
all of that just for a contain? He'll still have asignificantly earlier expo then you and if his macro is decent, hes eventually going to overwhelm your contain or ignore it completely. If you're going to delay your own expo so much, it seems to me the only reasonable plan is to really threaten his nat, not just do a contain that his superior resources is going to allow him to break
yeah, use the wraiths + the contain and move in on him with the rangetrick... ofcourse;)
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if you're gonna hard fac/port vs fe you arent looking for a contain, you need to be in range of their expo pretty much from the start. you're ognna have 1 fac vs their 2 and 1 command vs their 2. you dont have the luxury of sitting around and inching forward, if you arent in range of something before he has siege you're probably gonna lose.
not that its never worthwhile to sacrifice econ to set up an air tight contain, but not with fac/port. if you want that kind of play go 2 fac, and only on maps where you can make (literally) a complete turret ring around his base.
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well thats basically what i meant... you move your tanks to his natural and siege up using wraith to give range to your tanks, take out his first 2 tanks and then move closer to hit the CC. Then sit at his natural with wraiths and tanks, no need to move up his main since you will have a natural running any second. Im also saying that it can be important not to rush in too fast since he can pull his scvs to break you, u shouldnt have all tanks clutched together, however ofcourse it depends on the situation...
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you said go with 5-6 tanks
hes gonna have at least 4 (more than 2)sieged tanks in front of his nat by the time you have that many, and if its a good terran he will have recognized your build and have his barracks or an ebay floated out for vision.
like i said you have to get there and in range of his natural before he has siege, which means going with 2 tanks usually, depending on what his build is.
also you do want your tanks all together so they can cover each other vs his tanks, otherwise he'll just siege them one by one. (although that depends on the setup of the natural and how much maneuverability he has) spreading them doesnt help vs scv breaks, tanks arent gonna kill the scvs anyway, thats what the marines are for. you want your tanks targetted on his.
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this is if he start the usual 1fact CC -> vult build
at the moment when he will start making tanks he will have to make goliath instead, when you have 5-6 tanks he'll have 2 tanks tops
if he starts out making tanks directly from his first fact then its different.
sorry if i was vague...
Many players opens up with 1fact addon -> CC -> second fact vult build on maps without cliff to the natural
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you say theyll have 2 tanks tops, then you say you're talking about vulture builds.
which is it? if its fac cc->tanks theyre gonna have 2 fac and an armory when you get there, 1 fac gols and 1 fac tanks, at best 1 less tank than you have. thats why you have to be there and set up before their production kicks in, cuz you're not gonna have numerical advantage. (hence why you dont wait for 5-6 tanks)
if its fac cc-> vulture build then time is still against you as theyll have mines out by the time you have that many tanks, and good luck plowing through 2-3 fac vult worth of mines.
or do you mean 1fac cc-> 1 fac tank + 1 fac vulture and mines? cuz thats not standard, its intended to pressure other 1 fac cc builds and they arent likely to do it if they see you teching/no expo. although that build usually gets mines first in which case you're STILL fucked since theyll have you mined in by the time you have 5-6 tanks
so no... there is no situation where you should wait for that many tanks. its an insanely big risk, you're basically hoping they have no clue what theyre doing and pump 2 fac gol with gol range before siege upon seeing 1-2 wraiths without cloak.
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nah u cant move out with 2 tanks vs the vult build the tanks will die too easy to mines.. i did the vult build and this korean took his tanks and killed the mines, using his 2-3 marines and 5 tanks.
its doable, though risky.. specially if the map has any uphill paths where u can place the mines, but python for example hasnt..
and im talking about 1fact addon CC vult fact vuuuuuuult build. then add 2 fact etc.. armory will be up late so wraith will do damage and you have to produce 2 goliaths.. so your tankcount will be kind of low.
dragon your first 2 tanks will most likely get them killed by mines and if they arent dead already a few scvs will handle the situation.
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EPT
