|
i really have no idea what you're talking about
no one will switch over to tanks after vults upon seeing fac port(voluntarily switching to tank vs tank with a guaranteed inferior tank count?), theyll continue vults and lay a shitload of mines and snipe your rines with the vults and run around and counter given theyll have 12+ speed vults by that time, which is near impossible to defend since mines will break less than 2 tanks on a ramp. basically you're fucked every way possible
you always make 5+ marines with fac/port push builds cuz otherwise scvs rape you, the marines serve the extra purpose of allowing you to shoot down mines early. when you have 2 tanks hes gonna have 3-4 vults max if he got an addon (and if he didnt, no mines), meaning you're not gonna have whole minefields to plow through. if you go up a ramp or something just sacrifice a rine through it to clear it.
you talk about having trouble clearing mine fields, so you want to wait while they go from a handful of vultures to more than a hotkey with 3 fac producing? he gets at least another 6-12 mines for every tank you get. time is not on your side when you're doing what basically amounts to an allin.
and having late goliaths doesnt force him to build more than 1. 1 goliath scares off uncloaked wraiths as well as 20 goliaths.
|
if you have no idea what im talking about maybe you shouldn't continue argueing...
ho-ho-ho no but seriously...
quite early he will have to change to goliaths rather than vultures.. that gives you a timing window to kill the mine fields with highest possible tankcount.
if you use 2 tanks and move out with marines i think its easier for the vultures to snipe your marines..
i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
also i said based on his level of play, but most terrans, even good terrans will make 2 goliaths. thats enough for the timing window
|
that was a nice way of saying that you dont know what you're talking about, actually.
there is no change to goliaths, there is a goliath mixed in with 3 fac vulture. hell if he made 3 marines he doesnt even need a gol till you have 2 wraiths. if you really think you're gonna be able to move through that many mines safely because you have an extra 3 tanks (tanks suck vs mines btw, slow rate of fire and 2 shots per mine) then i dont really know what to say to that. except that you're wrong.
why do you keep switching between builds. first its a tank build, then its vultures, then its vulture goliath tank. if they open tank its gonna be 2 fac tank gol and theyre gonna have 4 tanks sieged by the time your 5-6 gets there. if they open vulture theyre gonna have 30+mines clumped on the path between your bases and 12 vults running around to kill all your scvs if you try to move out. theyre not gonna make just few enough vultures that you can kill the mines and then just few enough tanks that you can overwhelm them.
" even good terrans will make 2 goliaths" what are you basing that on? good terrans will make as few or as many as they need. when you're doing an extremely tank heavy build that means theyre gonna make as few gols as possible, which is 1 in this case. and even if they make 2, 3 less mines. you're still fucked.
the whole point of this build is to punish the fast expo. by waiting for that many tanks you allow his fast expo to kick in, giving him superior production to yours, that defeats the whole purpose. also you seem dependant on this tech switch that would play right into your hands, but no one will actually make.
|
First of all i never switched from any build. vult build was the only one.
secondly, yes they will make 2 goliaths. sometimes only 1 would be needed and sometime 2 but most of the times the opponent will make 2 goliaths to be sure unless they're A+ level.
his expo will kick in but he will make 2 gols before his 2 tanks and therefor he will be punnished anyway.
This works on a pretty high level on iccup so for you to say i dont know what im talking about is wrong. Maybe it wont work vs pro-gamers but that really doesnt matter.
|
secondly, yes they will make 2 goliaths. sometimes only 1 would be needed and sometime 2 but most of the times the opponent will make 2 goliaths to be sure unless they're A+ level. do you have any reason for this? or is it just helpful to assume. you said even good terrans will make 2 gols, part of the definition of being a good player is making good decisions. its a bad decision to make more gols than you need to in this situation, a good player will not do that.
you dont seem to understand what a vulture build is
its when they make vultures
vulture build = vultures, not tanks
make sense?
why would they start making tanks when you have no way of beating them if they continue to make vultures? i agree, if someone makes like 4 vultures, then 2 goliaths, then starts tank production yes you're gonna win if you attack with 6 tanks. but no one is gonna do that cuz its just about the worst thing you could possibly do vs tank heavy fac port.
i dont really care if you actually did newb bash your way to b+ or not, you dont know what you're talking about if you think you should wait for that long on a rush build.
|
Hold on here.. What the fuck kind of build is CC---> vult? Im still confused on which build this is. Are you talking about 2 fac vulture with 2 addons, 1 addon or CC into 3 fac vult? Fac/Port is not very strong against 2 fac vult if you move out. The main reason why fac/port is usable is because it enables you to adapt extremely well to what the other player is doing... When I go fac/port i generally make a wraith to scout before upgrading cloak. This forces them to make a gol/engineering bay or more marines unless they have 3 already (which is the case normally so the wraith is mainly a scouting tool). At this point you know exactly what they are doing whether its 1 fac vult---> CC, 1 fac addon ---> CC 2 fac tank/vult, 2 fac vult or 2 fac gol. What AnOth3rDAy is talking about confuses me for two reasons. Are you saying that your going to wait for 5 tanks off of ONE FACTORY to attack? Doing that would be suicide. You do realize that it does not matter whether he went 1 fac cc 2 fac or ANYTHING that he is going to have the same number or one less of tanks than you by the time you arrive at his base? Also any good player makes siege asap when they see fac port because they know you can switch over to siege really quickly.
the build is a middleground scouting based build, and you cannot wait for 6 tanks to fucking attack.
|
well 'the' cc->vult build is vult cc, 2nd fac (and then it varies, either speed vults and later 3rd or 4th or fast 3rd and later speed) and then constant vults. if your opponent goes gol tank you mine him up and threaten counters while switching to 3 addon tanks (with either 1 fac gol or 3 fac vults) and into a normal game from there, if your opponent also goes vults then it becomes a normal vult battle.
but the build hes talking about is never used, the closest thing to what hes talking about is a fast 2nd factory after cc and 1 fac tank 1 fac vults with mines for a fast push
|
the build im talking about is used alot, u just dont know what im talking about... i dont care for further discussion.
fact addon cc speed fact then 2fact. you can see it from several progamers in VODs.
its a vulturetank build really but if u see wraiths u need 1 or 2 goliaths.
i dont care if u newbbashed yourself to korea in some USA only tournament, im sick of your attitude really...
Sea.Really using this
|
thats not a common build, its a reaction to a fe->3 fac/4fac vult build, with a few early tanks and then constant vultures (hence speed instead of mines) intended to overpower them before they have mines up.
show me someone who goes that build in response to fac port (or anything other than 1 fac cc vultures) and ill show you someone whos worse at broodwar than you are. you are literally never going to be facing that build, so its utterly irrelevant if waiting for 5 tanks is good vs it. but then i already said that 3 times and youve ignored it so far, so whats the point.
some random little newbie who has no clue what hes talking about and yet is getting indignant when people tell him not to post strategy advice PROBABLY shouldnt be talking about an attitude. and ya americans blow, its a good thing all those europeans raped nony and machine in spirit.
|
i'll admit nony is a great player. anyway you get too carried away and as i said i dont care for further discussion with you. You are too imature.
note that sea.really didn't scout herys main. which often happens
|
the vod you linked isnt the build you described, (first off you were talking about hery, sea.really is purple and he opened normal pure vult). you said speed first and then vult tank, with a couple of gols in case of wraiths. he went mine first and switched to almost pure gol tank(upon seeing fe, not wraith/tank), very few vultures after the initial handful.
|
On December 17 2008 20:40 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i'll admit nony is a great player. anyway you get too carried away and as i said i dont care for further discussion with you. You are too imature.
note that sea.really didn't scout herys main. which often happens
i dont even know what to say. you're too ignorant to even have an intelligent argument with about the builds you're proposing since you just completely ignore reality and insist that your opponents will do a very unusual build that happens to be the only thing your build beats. and then you say im too immature when you realize you havent got a clue what you're talking about and theres no way for you to respond?
fuck you
|
im talking about sea.really. if you scout him making vultures you go speed first, if not u go mines, aw its so hard not to carry on can't help myself.
basically when u went from discussion to calling me noob and "fuck you" etc is what made me call you immature.
ill explain one last time the build im talking about:
factory with addon -> CC -> second factory no addon keep making vults upgrade speed first if you see him doing vult otherwise mines first, keep making vultures, add 2 factories make vult vults vults, then add second machineshop, make vults from 2 tanks from 2 add armory + academy while hopefully be able to contain him or overpower him with vults/tanks then take your third and add 3 more facts. from there you can pretty mutch improvise switching to tank/gol or keep tank vult depending on what he does.
|
really doesnt make any tanks or gols at all, hes going pure vulture (which rapes you for all the reasons weve already been over)
the whole premise of your argument was attacking them after they switch to gol/tank, but before they have enough to defend you.
On December 17 2008 03:29 AnOth3rDAy wrote:i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
but he doesnt switch to tanks, he has 12+ vultures, which which he will lay 36 mines that your 5-6 tanks will do jack shit to, and if you even try to move through them he'll run around and rape your main. you will not be able to both attack and defend with 1 fac while he has 3-4 fac pumping.
|
On December 17 2008 20:45 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
ill explain one last time the build im talking about:
factory with addon -> CC -> second factory no addon keep making vults upgrade speed first if you see him doing vult otherwise mines first, keep making vultures, add 2 factories make vult vults vults, then add second machineshop, make vults from 2 tanks from 2 add armory + academy while hopefully be able to contain him or overpower him with vults/tanks then take your third and add 3 more facts. from there you can pretty mutch improvise switching to tank/gol or keep tank vult depending on what he does.
thats not the build you were talking about, you were talking about them having 2 tanks by the time you had 5-6 tanks. you think theyre gonna have 2 tanks after opening fast 4 fac and that many vultures? and, once again, why would they switch to tanks at all when just making pure vultures with 1 gol mixed in rapes the shit out of you.
|
thats the build i was talking about when you said it didnt exist.. i dont know how else to say this... i even put up a vod of it.. what more do you want.
when facing a wraith you need to make armory / academy before adding the 3rd and 4th factory. hence he wont have 4 fact vult but rather 2 fact vult and producing 1 or 2 goliaths cutting the vult count, opening a timing window for a tankpush for the other player.
|
This discussion is ridiculous.
Idra is a programmer, playing the game is his job, and he is surrounded by the best players in the world.
Why do you argue with him and don't listen his point? He is way better than you and knows wayyy more than you'll ever know about terran builds.
Better to shut up and accept you can be wrong.
I mean. It's as ridiculous as arguing about how it is better to serve on tennis with Federer.
|
Im not saying that his builds are wrong, he's simply wrong when he said that this build doesnt exist, coz it does.. its pretty rediculous yes.
His point is that the build doesnt exist, that im a noob and i should help people with strategies.
sure im not a pro gamer, but the build does exist and if he cant admit it then he's wrong. He's just too angry to admit it.
|
thats the build i was talking about when you said it didnt exist.. i dont know how else to say this... i even put up a vod of it.. what more do you want.
i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
he made NO TANKS
he made PURE VULTURES
and you wont need to make an acad at all, you can tell if your opponent is getting cloak or not by the timing of the wraith, the armory buys you an extra 10..15 seconds on the 3rd fac. bad news. he still has 12 vultures with both upgrades by the time you're ready to attack. bad news. you're still gonna get raped.
|
so you admit that the build exist then?
thnx
yep the 1fact 1port is not very good doing vs this build vs a really good gamer, thats true, works very well on iccup up to B level though. Anyway this whole big discussion appeared when you said my 1fact cc vult build didnt exist...
so you would move out with 2 first tanks vs the fact cc vult build? i dont think so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
