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Hello all.
Recently, Ive been playing more and more TVT games as part of becoming good at all Terran Matchups. I usually dual starported, 14CCd, and 2facted, instead of going for that 1 Fact 1 Port. Now, this changed, after I played a A- Terran who 1 Fact 1 Ported me, using mines, 1 Tank, and wraith to destroy me. However, when I tried to replicate it in my many TVT games, I failed miserably, especially when I encountered either dual facts or dual ports. The strategy was more effective against the fast CC or 1fact CC.
The reason why I failed is because it seems to me that the 1 Fact 1 Port is taking little bits of every tech. I get some tanks and vultures and some wraiths. However, when I encounter these committed builds, I find myself with lack of units.
Against a 2fac, the opponent has more siege tanks and goliaths and with scans, get destroy my groundforce and air. Against dual ports, my wraiths cannot combat his larger wraith army and I do not invest in enough resources to fight it off with goliaths.
So, here's my questions:
Is this the correct way to look at the situation?
Are the 2fac and 2port direct counters to 1fact 1 port?
What are the pros and cons of this build?
After this build, should one push out or play defensive, and incorporate drops?
Thanks in advance for the help!
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there are variations of fac port, you can skip cloak and siege and get a fast expo, you can get cloak immediately and focus on wraiths and get a pretty quick expo, you can pump constant tanks and get siege and not get cloak and go for a hard rush designed to kill fac cc or double cc, or you can get both cloak and siege and go for a later, stronger rush. the last 2 options come pretty late expos and so you have to damage him or you'll be behind, unless he did an even more aggressive/late expo build.
getting vultures with fac port is not standard, tank/wraith is much more common. id guess the rationale behind it is that they wont have enough scans to deal with both mines and cloaked wraiths so the mines will stop the tank/gol timing attack, but tank/gol will roll 1 fac vulture mines anyway so its rather useless. stick with tank/wraith for now.
the safest version of the build is to get quick cloak and pump wraiths while getting a relatively fast expo. depending on what you scout you can cut tanks to get a quicker expo or not (if you see 1 fac cc get your own cc after 2 tanks or so, if you see 2 fac obviously tanks take priority) this build can adapt to all situations pretty easy.
if he 2 ports get an ebay and a faster expo with turrets, his initial wraiths wont do anything cuz you'll have faster cloak and by the time he could overpower you you have turrets, just transition to tank/gol with a better econ from there.
vs 2 fac you have cloaked wraiths and he'll have at most 1 scanner, but he will have a stronger army and you arent guaranteed a faster expo. 2 fac vs fac port isnt a guaranteed advantage to either side, all about how you play it out. your best bet is constant tanks + siege and set up a siege line outside your nat and pick at his shit with cloaked wraiths while expoing. transition into 3 fac tank as your expo goes up and do the thing where you siege just in range, outside of vision, of his siege line and use your wraiths to provide vision/kill his rax. practice that, its one of the most important things in tvt. this is the standard followup to fac port, taking advantage of the fact that he has to make goliaths so you'll have more tanks, but it leaves you with almost no anti air so watch out for a wraith switch from your opponent. if he has too solid a contain set up you can switch to tank gol drops.
the fac/port variations that dont include cloak are significantly more dangerous. the tank heavy one is designed solely as a fac cc killing build, and the fast expo fac/port is designed to defend the tank heavy fac/port, but is also ok vs fac cc. they both fail hard vs 2 port and vs 2 fac tank gol.
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I've been trying to get a build going like this. I usually get 3 marines and 2 vulture without the machine shop at first and try to rush and punish any kind of 1 fact FE and 14 CC. If the opponent is 2 fact the rush is 50/50 sometimes if does some damage and sometimes gets shut down, this may come down to no/wide/small ramp type maps and the distances between your mains. I've never won solely because of that rush though, but it does slow them down and force them to focus more on ground than anti-air. By the time the rush is almost dead, you can get your first wraith out fast and sometimes the ebay and armory are halfway done depending on their BO. I haven't played against too many 2 port to really understand how things should go, but depending on their ground force I'm pretty sure 3 marine 2 vulture can be overall delay the wraith count so that way your wraiths can still be effective.
To me it's a build to keep the opponent guessing as to what you might be going for, or at least that's what I've used it for.
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On December 13 2008 14:11 IdrA wrote:
there are variations of fac port, you can skip cloak and siege and get a fast expo, you can get cloak immediately and focus on wraiths and get a pretty quick expo, you can pump constant tanks and get siege and not get cloak and go for a hard rush designed to kill fac cc or double cc, or you can get both cloak and siege and go for a later, stronger rush. the last 2 options come pretty late expos and so you have to damage him or you'll be behind, unless he did an even more aggressive/late expo build.
getting vultures with fac port is not standard, tank/wraith is much more common. id guess the rationale behind it is that they wont have enough scans to deal with both mines and cloaked wraiths so the mines will stop the tank/gol timing attack, but tank/gol will roll 1 fac vulture mines anyway so its rather useless. stick with tank/wraith for now.
the safest version of the build is to get quick cloak and pump wraiths while getting a relatively fast expo. depending on what you scout you can cut tanks to get a quicker expo or not (if you see 1 fac cc get your own cc after 2 tanks or so, if you see 2 fac obviously tanks take priority) this build can adapt to all situations pretty easy.
if he 2 ports get an ebay and a faster expo with turrets, his initial wraiths wont do anything cuz you'll have faster cloak and by the time he could overpower you you have turrets, just transition to tank/gol with a better econ from there.
vs 2 fac you have cloaked wraiths and he'll have at most 1 scanner, but he will have a stronger army and you arent guaranteed a faster expo. 2 fac vs fac port isnt a guaranteed advantage to either side, all about how you play it out. your best bet is constant tanks + siege and set up a siege line outside your nat and pick at his shit with cloaked wraiths while expoing. transition into 3 fac tank as your expo goes up and do the thing where you siege just in range, outside of vision, of his siege line and use your wraiths to provide vision/kill his rax. practice that, its one of the most important things in tvt. this is the standard followup to fac port, taking advantage of the fact that he has to make goliaths so you'll have more tanks, but it leaves you with almost no anti air so watch out for a wraith switch from your opponent. if he has too solid a contain set up you can switch to tank gol drops.
the fac/port variations that dont include cloak are significantly more dangerous. the tank heavy one is designed solely as a fac cc killing build, and the fast expo fac/port is designed to defend the tank heavy fac/port, but is also ok vs fac cc. they both fail hard vs 2 port and vs 2 fac tank gol.
wow thanks!! , thats some really great advice.
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dont do that, at least not vs good players.
it was good when it was a suprise, but it got really popular recently so now everyone expects it and if they make a bunker or constant vultures it fails hard, because you have few+late tanks and no cloak while he has an exp up and 2 fac tank gol pumping.
and never ever do it vs 14 cc cuz theyre 100% going to have a bunker, and an even better econ.
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dear god that first post was sick idra ...
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CA10826 Posts
a great OP followed up by a great reply
this is how the strategy forum should work guys!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
i want to close this thread to preserve it for eternity unspoiled
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Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
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Wow, thanks Idra.
I played more TVT today and used mines vs. 14cc. It worked brilliantly...
Also, the 1fact 1 port with siege and cloak advice helped a lot. I set a siege contain outside and picked off literally 8 dropships with my wraiths. The transition into 3fac tanks was great.
The only game I lost was to a C+ korean who did a mass dropships and valk build <<
thanks!
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Awesome to get strategy advices from progamers 
Good for me I suck at TvT lol
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omg.. Idra giving advice in the strategy section... this site is too good to be true.
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On December 13 2008 21:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
all of that just for a contain? He'll still have asignificantly earlier expo then you and if his macro is decent, hes eventually going to overwhelm your contain or ignore it completely. If you're going to delay your own expo so much, it seems to me the only reasonable plan is to really threaten his nat, not just do a contain that his superior resources is going to allow him to break
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On December 14 2008 03:04 fusionsdf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2008 21:12 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
Usually if you scout that he is 1fact CC you should keep making wraiths and tanks without expanding imo. Harass him with wraiths, make him build armor and academy, hopefully ebay depending on his lvl of play. He will make goliaths vs wraith and your tank number will overwhelm him, then move out with 5-6 tanks and contain him, keep the wraiths alive for the containment, beware for him pulling all his scv and units to kill the tankcontain.
all of that just for a contain? He'll still have asignificantly earlier expo then you and if his macro is decent, hes eventually going to overwhelm your contain or ignore it completely. If you're going to delay your own expo so much, it seems to me the only reasonable plan is to really threaten his nat, not just do a contain that his superior resources is going to allow him to break
yeah, use the wraiths + the contain and move in on him with the rangetrick... ofcourse;)
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if you're gonna hard fac/port vs fe you arent looking for a contain, you need to be in range of their expo pretty much from the start. you're ognna have 1 fac vs their 2 and 1 command vs their 2. you dont have the luxury of sitting around and inching forward, if you arent in range of something before he has siege you're probably gonna lose.
not that its never worthwhile to sacrifice econ to set up an air tight contain, but not with fac/port. if you want that kind of play go 2 fac, and only on maps where you can make (literally) a complete turret ring around his base.
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well thats basically what i meant... you move your tanks to his natural and siege up using wraith to give range to your tanks, take out his first 2 tanks and then move closer to hit the CC. Then sit at his natural with wraiths and tanks, no need to move up his main since you will have a natural running any second. Im also saying that it can be important not to rush in too fast since he can pull his scvs to break you, u shouldnt have all tanks clutched together, however ofcourse it depends on the situation...
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you said go with 5-6 tanks
hes gonna have at least 4 (more than 2)sieged tanks in front of his nat by the time you have that many, and if its a good terran he will have recognized your build and have his barracks or an ebay floated out for vision.
like i said you have to get there and in range of his natural before he has siege, which means going with 2 tanks usually, depending on what his build is.
also you do want your tanks all together so they can cover each other vs his tanks, otherwise he'll just siege them one by one. (although that depends on the setup of the natural and how much maneuverability he has) spreading them doesnt help vs scv breaks, tanks arent gonna kill the scvs anyway, thats what the marines are for. you want your tanks targetted on his.
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this is if he start the usual 1fact CC -> vult build
at the moment when he will start making tanks he will have to make goliath instead, when you have 5-6 tanks he'll have 2 tanks tops
if he starts out making tanks directly from his first fact then its different.
sorry if i was vague...
Many players opens up with 1fact addon -> CC -> second fact vult build on maps without cliff to the natural
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you say theyll have 2 tanks tops, then you say you're talking about vulture builds.
which is it? if its fac cc->tanks theyre gonna have 2 fac and an armory when you get there, 1 fac gols and 1 fac tanks, at best 1 less tank than you have. thats why you have to be there and set up before their production kicks in, cuz you're not gonna have numerical advantage. (hence why you dont wait for 5-6 tanks)
if its fac cc-> vulture build then time is still against you as theyll have mines out by the time you have that many tanks, and good luck plowing through 2-3 fac vult worth of mines.
or do you mean 1fac cc-> 1 fac tank + 1 fac vulture and mines? cuz thats not standard, its intended to pressure other 1 fac cc builds and they arent likely to do it if they see you teching/no expo. although that build usually gets mines first in which case you're STILL fucked since theyll have you mined in by the time you have 5-6 tanks
so no... there is no situation where you should wait for that many tanks. its an insanely big risk, you're basically hoping they have no clue what theyre doing and pump 2 fac gol with gol range before siege upon seeing 1-2 wraiths without cloak.
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nah u cant move out with 2 tanks vs the vult build the tanks will die too easy to mines.. i did the vult build and this korean took his tanks and killed the mines, using his 2-3 marines and 5 tanks.
its doable, though risky.. specially if the map has any uphill paths where u can place the mines, but python for example hasnt..
and im talking about 1fact addon CC vult fact vuuuuuuult build. then add 2 fact etc.. armory will be up late so wraith will do damage and you have to produce 2 goliaths.. so your tankcount will be kind of low.
dragon your first 2 tanks will most likely get them killed by mines and if they arent dead already a few scvs will handle the situation.
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i really have no idea what you're talking about
no one will switch over to tanks after vults upon seeing fac port(voluntarily switching to tank vs tank with a guaranteed inferior tank count?), theyll continue vults and lay a shitload of mines and snipe your rines with the vults and run around and counter given theyll have 12+ speed vults by that time, which is near impossible to defend since mines will break less than 2 tanks on a ramp. basically you're fucked every way possible
you always make 5+ marines with fac/port push builds cuz otherwise scvs rape you, the marines serve the extra purpose of allowing you to shoot down mines early. when you have 2 tanks hes gonna have 3-4 vults max if he got an addon (and if he didnt, no mines), meaning you're not gonna have whole minefields to plow through. if you go up a ramp or something just sacrifice a rine through it to clear it.
you talk about having trouble clearing mine fields, so you want to wait while they go from a handful of vultures to more than a hotkey with 3 fac producing? he gets at least another 6-12 mines for every tank you get. time is not on your side when you're doing what basically amounts to an allin.
and having late goliaths doesnt force him to build more than 1. 1 goliath scares off uncloaked wraiths as well as 20 goliaths.
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if you have no idea what im talking about maybe you shouldn't continue argueing...
ho-ho-ho no but seriously...
quite early he will have to change to goliaths rather than vultures.. that gives you a timing window to kill the mine fields with highest possible tankcount.
if you use 2 tanks and move out with marines i think its easier for the vultures to snipe your marines..
i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
also i said based on his level of play, but most terrans, even good terrans will make 2 goliaths. thats enough for the timing window
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that was a nice way of saying that you dont know what you're talking about, actually.
there is no change to goliaths, there is a goliath mixed in with 3 fac vulture. hell if he made 3 marines he doesnt even need a gol till you have 2 wraiths. if you really think you're gonna be able to move through that many mines safely because you have an extra 3 tanks (tanks suck vs mines btw, slow rate of fire and 2 shots per mine) then i dont really know what to say to that. except that you're wrong.
why do you keep switching between builds. first its a tank build, then its vultures, then its vulture goliath tank. if they open tank its gonna be 2 fac tank gol and theyre gonna have 4 tanks sieged by the time your 5-6 gets there. if they open vulture theyre gonna have 30+mines clumped on the path between your bases and 12 vults running around to kill all your scvs if you try to move out. theyre not gonna make just few enough vultures that you can kill the mines and then just few enough tanks that you can overwhelm them.
" even good terrans will make 2 goliaths" what are you basing that on? good terrans will make as few or as many as they need. when you're doing an extremely tank heavy build that means theyre gonna make as few gols as possible, which is 1 in this case. and even if they make 2, 3 less mines. you're still fucked.
the whole point of this build is to punish the fast expo. by waiting for that many tanks you allow his fast expo to kick in, giving him superior production to yours, that defeats the whole purpose. also you seem dependant on this tech switch that would play right into your hands, but no one will actually make.
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First of all i never switched from any build. vult build was the only one.
secondly, yes they will make 2 goliaths. sometimes only 1 would be needed and sometime 2 but most of the times the opponent will make 2 goliaths to be sure unless they're A+ level.
his expo will kick in but he will make 2 gols before his 2 tanks and therefor he will be punnished anyway.
This works on a pretty high level on iccup so for you to say i dont know what im talking about is wrong. Maybe it wont work vs pro-gamers but that really doesnt matter.
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secondly, yes they will make 2 goliaths. sometimes only 1 would be needed and sometime 2 but most of the times the opponent will make 2 goliaths to be sure unless they're A+ level. do you have any reason for this? or is it just helpful to assume. you said even good terrans will make 2 gols, part of the definition of being a good player is making good decisions. its a bad decision to make more gols than you need to in this situation, a good player will not do that.
you dont seem to understand what a vulture build is
its when they make vultures
vulture build = vultures, not tanks
make sense?
why would they start making tanks when you have no way of beating them if they continue to make vultures? i agree, if someone makes like 4 vultures, then 2 goliaths, then starts tank production yes you're gonna win if you attack with 6 tanks. but no one is gonna do that cuz its just about the worst thing you could possibly do vs tank heavy fac port.
i dont really care if you actually did newb bash your way to b+ or not, you dont know what you're talking about if you think you should wait for that long on a rush build.
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Hold on here.. What the fuck kind of build is CC---> vult? Im still confused on which build this is. Are you talking about 2 fac vulture with 2 addons, 1 addon or CC into 3 fac vult? Fac/Port is not very strong against 2 fac vult if you move out. The main reason why fac/port is usable is because it enables you to adapt extremely well to what the other player is doing... When I go fac/port i generally make a wraith to scout before upgrading cloak. This forces them to make a gol/engineering bay or more marines unless they have 3 already (which is the case normally so the wraith is mainly a scouting tool). At this point you know exactly what they are doing whether its 1 fac vult---> CC, 1 fac addon ---> CC 2 fac tank/vult, 2 fac vult or 2 fac gol. What AnOth3rDAy is talking about confuses me for two reasons. Are you saying that your going to wait for 5 tanks off of ONE FACTORY to attack? Doing that would be suicide. You do realize that it does not matter whether he went 1 fac cc 2 fac or ANYTHING that he is going to have the same number or one less of tanks than you by the time you arrive at his base? Also any good player makes siege asap when they see fac port because they know you can switch over to siege really quickly.
the build is a middleground scouting based build, and you cannot wait for 6 tanks to fucking attack.
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well 'the' cc->vult build is vult cc, 2nd fac (and then it varies, either speed vults and later 3rd or 4th or fast 3rd and later speed) and then constant vults. if your opponent goes gol tank you mine him up and threaten counters while switching to 3 addon tanks (with either 1 fac gol or 3 fac vults) and into a normal game from there, if your opponent also goes vults then it becomes a normal vult battle.
but the build hes talking about is never used, the closest thing to what hes talking about is a fast 2nd factory after cc and 1 fac tank 1 fac vults with mines for a fast push
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the build im talking about is used alot, u just dont know what im talking about... i dont care for further discussion.
fact addon cc speed fact then 2fact. you can see it from several progamers in VODs.
its a vulturetank build really but if u see wraiths u need 1 or 2 goliaths.
i dont care if u newbbashed yourself to korea in some USA only tournament, im sick of your attitude really...
Sea.Really using this
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thats not a common build, its a reaction to a fe->3 fac/4fac vult build, with a few early tanks and then constant vultures (hence speed instead of mines) intended to overpower them before they have mines up.
show me someone who goes that build in response to fac port (or anything other than 1 fac cc vultures) and ill show you someone whos worse at broodwar than you are. you are literally never going to be facing that build, so its utterly irrelevant if waiting for 5 tanks is good vs it. but then i already said that 3 times and youve ignored it so far, so whats the point.
some random little newbie who has no clue what hes talking about and yet is getting indignant when people tell him not to post strategy advice PROBABLY shouldnt be talking about an attitude. and ya americans blow, its a good thing all those europeans raped nony and machine in spirit.
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i'll admit nony is a great player. anyway you get too carried away and as i said i dont care for further discussion with you. You are too imature.
note that sea.really didn't scout herys main. which often happens
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the vod you linked isnt the build you described, (first off you were talking about hery, sea.really is purple and he opened normal pure vult). you said speed first and then vult tank, with a couple of gols in case of wraiths. he went mine first and switched to almost pure gol tank(upon seeing fe, not wraith/tank), very few vultures after the initial handful.
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On December 17 2008 20:40 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
i'll admit nony is a great player. anyway you get too carried away and as i said i dont care for further discussion with you. You are too imature.
note that sea.really didn't scout herys main. which often happens
i dont even know what to say. you're too ignorant to even have an intelligent argument with about the builds you're proposing since you just completely ignore reality and insist that your opponents will do a very unusual build that happens to be the only thing your build beats. and then you say im too immature when you realize you havent got a clue what you're talking about and theres no way for you to respond?
fuck you
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im talking about sea.really. if you scout him making vultures you go speed first, if not u go mines, aw its so hard not to carry on can't help myself.
basically when u went from discussion to calling me noob and "fuck you" etc is what made me call you immature.
ill explain one last time the build im talking about:
factory with addon -> CC -> second factory no addon keep making vults upgrade speed first if you see him doing vult otherwise mines first, keep making vultures, add 2 factories make vult vults vults, then add second machineshop, make vults from 2 tanks from 2 add armory + academy while hopefully be able to contain him or overpower him with vults/tanks then take your third and add 3 more facts. from there you can pretty mutch improvise switching to tank/gol or keep tank vult depending on what he does.
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really doesnt make any tanks or gols at all, hes going pure vulture (which rapes you for all the reasons weve already been over)
the whole premise of your argument was attacking them after they switch to gol/tank, but before they have enough to defend you.
On December 17 2008 03:29 AnOth3rDAy wrote:i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
but he doesnt switch to tanks, he has 12+ vultures, which which he will lay 36 mines that your 5-6 tanks will do jack shit to, and if you even try to move through them he'll run around and rape your main. you will not be able to both attack and defend with 1 fac while he has 3-4 fac pumping.
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On December 17 2008 20:45 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
ill explain one last time the build im talking about:
factory with addon -> CC -> second factory no addon keep making vults upgrade speed first if you see him doing vult otherwise mines first, keep making vultures, add 2 factories make vult vults vults, then add second machineshop, make vults from 2 tanks from 2 add armory + academy while hopefully be able to contain him or overpower him with vults/tanks then take your third and add 3 more facts. from there you can pretty mutch improvise switching to tank/gol or keep tank vult depending on what he does.
thats not the build you were talking about, you were talking about them having 2 tanks by the time you had 5-6 tanks. you think theyre gonna have 2 tanks after opening fast 4 fac and that many vultures? and, once again, why would they switch to tanks at all when just making pure vultures with 1 gol mixed in rapes the shit out of you.
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thats the build i was talking about when you said it didnt exist.. i dont know how else to say this... i even put up a vod of it.. what more do you want.
when facing a wraith you need to make armory / academy before adding the 3rd and 4th factory. hence he wont have 4 fact vult but rather 2 fact vult and producing 1 or 2 goliaths cutting the vult count, opening a timing window for a tankpush for the other player.
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This discussion is ridiculous.
Idra is a programmer, playing the game is his job, and he is surrounded by the best players in the world.
Why do you argue with him and don't listen his point? He is way better than you and knows wayyy more than you'll ever know about terran builds.
Better to shut up and accept you can be wrong.
I mean. It's as ridiculous as arguing about how it is better to serve on tennis with Federer.
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Im not saying that his builds are wrong, he's simply wrong when he said that this build doesnt exist, coz it does.. its pretty rediculous yes.
His point is that the build doesnt exist, that im a noob and i should help people with strategies.
sure im not a pro gamer, but the build does exist and if he cant admit it then he's wrong. He's just too angry to admit it.
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thats the build i was talking about when you said it didnt exist.. i dont know how else to say this... i even put up a vod of it.. what more do you want.
i think if you use that timing window you'll be able to have the most leathal force outside his natural... if you wait too long he'll have 2 many tanks and better econ, if u wait too short you'll have too few tanks to fend of the vult+gol+scv attack.
he made NO TANKS
he made PURE VULTURES
and you wont need to make an acad at all, you can tell if your opponent is getting cloak or not by the timing of the wraith, the armory buys you an extra 10..15 seconds on the 3rd fac. bad news. he still has 12 vultures with both upgrades by the time you're ready to attack. bad news. you're still gonna get raped.
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so you admit that the build exist then?
thnx
yep the 1fact 1port is not very good doing vs this build vs a really good gamer, thats true, works very well on iccup up to B level though. Anyway this whole big discussion appeared when you said my 1fact cc vult build didnt exist...
so you would move out with 2 first tanks vs the fact cc vult build? i dont think so.
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On December 17 2008 21:08 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
so you admit that the build exist then?
thnx
yep the 1fact 1port is not very good doing vs this build vs a really good gamer, thats true, works very well on iccup up to B level though. Anyway this whole big discussion appeared when you said my 1fact cc vult build didnt exist...
so you would move out with 2 first tanks vs the fact cc vult build? i dont think so.
the build exists in that you can theoretically make units and buildings in the order you described
but no, no one uses the build that you were describing, the vod you posted is of a build that is entirely different than what you were describing, and ESPECIALLY no one would ever use the build you were describing if they believed you were doing anything other than fac cc. so no it does not exist.
the whole discussion actually appeared when you said we should wait for 5-6 tanks to attack when going fac port vs fac cc. which is horribly wrong.
and yes, you do attack with your first 2 tanks and 4-5+ marines +your first wraith when doing fac port vs any kind of fac cc, vulture builds especially since vulture production takes off very quickly, since they can afford to add factories fastest and because you want to get there before the upgrades kick in
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yes it does exist, you've said you dont even know what im talking about so maybe you shouldnt argue then.
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i said i dont know what you're talking about because it makes absolutely no sense that you're claiming someone would open vults, make a few, and then switch to gol tank in such a way that they have few enough mines that they cant contain you and few enough tanks that they cant hold your attack.
its cute how you try to focus everything on the stupid counter build you made up since you realized you were wrong about the fac/port attack timing (the thing this thread is actually about)
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the thing ive tried to defend for most of the thread and which im certain of is the build ive tried to describe to you. i dont focus everything on anything, im just abit bored discussion things with you...
after he has made his goliaths there is no reason to add 2 more vult instead of two tanks with mode when the opponent is aiming for the push.
Also whats with the flaming of Naugrim? you just call people noob left and right nowadays... you got attitudeproblems.
this will be the last thing i post on this thread. say whatever bm things you want, and then get back to practice instead of wasting time here..
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do you seriously not get what you're doing
you said it was good to wait for 5/6 tanks to attack with a fac port build
everyone tells you thats wrong
you say "nonono its good if he does this specific build"
and then spend the rest of the thread trying to convince us that that specific build is ever even used
do you still not get it?
ya probably not, oh well
and they wont add more tanks because more vultures is better. the fac/port is gonna have more tanks because it was going tanks from the beginning. however the tanks are weak vs mines and you only have 1 fac production, meaning you have no way to both defend vs vulture counters and attack, and if you dont attack then you're way behind in econ, and eventually you'll get rolled.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
Wow, the biggest argument I have seen that doesn't involve religion or current affairs, but Starcraft! Epic advice Idra really your time over there has given you a bigger idea on the game 
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On December 17 2008 21:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
the thing ive tried to defend for most of the thread and which im certain of is the build ive tried to describe to you. i dont focus everything on anything, im just abit bored discussion things with you...
after he has made his goliaths there is no reason to add 2 more vult instead of two tanks with mode when the opponent is aiming for the push.
Also whats with the flaming of Naugrim? you just call people noob left and right nowadays... you got attitudeproblems.
this will be the last thing i post on this thread. say whatever bm things you want, and then get back to practice instead of wasting time here..
To see someone that proud that he just can't admit that maybe his opponent who is 5000 times more experienced than him could be right is just pathetic.
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On December 17 2008 21:47 AnOth3rDAy wrote:
the thing ive tried to defend for most of the thread and which im certain of is the build ive tried to describe to you. i dont focus everything on anything, im just abit bored discussion things with you...
after he has made his goliaths there is no reason to add 2 more vult instead of two tanks with mode when the opponent is aiming for the push.
Also whats with the flaming of Naugrim? you just call people noob left and right nowadays... you got attitudeproblems.
this will be the last thing i post on this thread. say whatever bm things you want, and then get back to practice instead of wasting time here..
Red herring.
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Random swedish guy vs CJ member  . Even if idra wasn't good, he's still surrounded by great players that know their shit, and usually that rubs off on people that are around them. I'm pretty sure idra knows what he is talkin about, and the fact that you say "ahhh so you admit the build does exist" i think he's been sayin the entire time it exists, but sucks except vs 1 build that was origianlly completely irrelavent to the conversation. This is 1 fac 1 port, not vult-->cc with some bogus counter, stop giving yourself attention :\. I liked this thread at first even for myself who generally knows this stuff even though i gave up playin tvt, but now you have gone and ruined it -_-.
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AnOth3rDAy can you just post a replay of the build so people know what you are talking about?
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awww the thread started out so nicely too plexa you should have closed it when you had the chance!
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iono
its kinda funny to see someone arguing against idra
we've got a mole in a progaming team thats giving us advice =)
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dont mock him for arguing with someone better than him
mock him for not knowing what the fuck he was talking about and being a stubborn prick about it
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I wouldn't mock anyone. This thread provided some quality entertainment for sure. And I learned a thing or two along the way. Thanks guys!
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Either way IdrA I think you are better off not talking to walls. You would save alot of time in the future if you can recognize people that have no sense of understanding and to stubborn to be compromising, an he has too much pride to admit any of his faults.
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EPT
