EPT[q] Cost of worker loss compared to...
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DeepGreen
United States175 Posts
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SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
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rkarhu
Finland570 Posts
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Durak
Canada3685 Posts
Edit: Crap, you weren't talking about using it to scout :D. I suppose you could think of it as 50 minerals + the mining it could have been doing for the rest of the game. | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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Xeofreestyler
Belgium6786 Posts
after a series where bisu used dts if im not mistaken! | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On November 03 2008 02:25 DeepGreen wrote: I was wondering if somebody smarter than me could tell me what the cost of losing a probe is to an early game harass. Obviously the probe costs 50 minerals, but if a zealot snipes one (let's say when you have 15 probes, just for simplicity's sake...clearly 1 probe matters less when you've got 4 base saturated.), you also lose mining time. I'm assuming then, this number will be a fraction. How many minerals do you actually lose if you lose a probe in the early game? If a zealot snipes one of your a probe, and in that moment that zealot also dies, you are at 50 mineral advantage. Though this is turning into a disadvantage quite fast, because of your opponent's extra probe. 50 mineral is like 6.25 mining circle for his extra probe and after that he is gaining advantage I think. This was very rough estimation, it assumed that yours and your opponent's probelines weren't saturated. If they are, it is less disadvantage. I don't know exact numbers but one mining cycle is like 15 seconds, so you are losing ~0.5 mineral per second if you lost a worker early game (e.g. losing a building scv ) until your worker/patch ratio goes above 1.5-2, where it gets saturated. | ||
micronesia
United States24805 Posts
In pvp, if you harass with 1 zealot and 1 probe, you are obviously way ahead if you snipe 3+ probes. What about 2 probes? 1? Obviously you are behind if you snipe 0. Assume you lose the zealot and scouting probe. How do you decide who ended up ahead? | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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megastarcraft20
United States74 Posts
On November 03 2008 02:42 rkarhu wrote: The answer to your question and all things in life is 42. Correct. Even the answer to " How many chucks could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood? " is 42. | ||
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
On November 03 2008 03:03 micronesia wrote: It's nearly impossible to come up with a proper analysis of the effects of sniping individual probes early in the game on the rest of the game. However, experienced players can make judgment calls pretty easily. In pvp, if you harass with 1 zealot and 1 probe, you are obviously way ahead if you snipe 3+ probes. What about 2 probes? 1? Obviously you are behind if you snipe 0. Assume you lose the zealot and scouting probe. How do you decide who ended up ahead? If you don't count fighting units: To be ahead, obviously you have to kill more workers than the number of your harassing worker. If you does count them: Theoretically, in the long run any worker loss hurts you much more than unit loss, because the worker production is being much more limited than unit production AND your saturation comes later. I saw a build made on this fact: In 2-3 years old Nal_rA PVP blizzcon matches! Look for the replays. He had a build on that 2 players map, where the guys spawn at bottom left-top right. I forgot the name of the map. He sent an early probe, one gate proxy, zealot harassment constantly. He usually sniped 1.5 probe with every zealot he sent, and meanwhile teched to standard 2 gate goon with reaver (without cutting probes, very important). But in practice, you have to take into consideration the current value of the harassing units, that's quite hard. (e.g slow zealots are worth less and less, first goon is worth a lot) | ||
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SiegeTanksandBlueGoo
China685 Posts
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micronesia
United States24805 Posts
On November 03 2008 03:48 SiegeTanksandBlueGoo wrote: Well actually since the efficiency of every worker decreases as you make more, I'm pretty sure you need some calculus to do this. I'll get on it once second semester rolls around or my college EA decision get back. It's not that simple. This is a combination of several fields of mathematics at once, combined with a tricky model. | ||
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x89titan
Philippines1130 Posts
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x89titan
Philippines1130 Posts
On November 03 2008 03:53 micronesia wrote: It's not that simple. This is a combination of several fields of mathematics at once, combined with a tricky model. its called the law of diminishing returns. | ||
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micronesia
United States24805 Posts
On November 03 2008 04:02 x89titan wrote: its called the law of diminishing returns. No, it's called <several things including the law of diminishing returns as one part of it> | ||
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hiroxx
Ireland115 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
Rough cut though, you can estimate that every probe killed in the first 5 minutes is worth double the price (100 mins), in the same way that you can assume that gas is worth 3x minerals. The figures above are kinda sorta random, but it lets you establish even a "reasonable guess". As freelander pointed out, you actually don't care how much every probe costs, but you care about the difference in mining time; Aka how much is your opponent getting ahead with each probe he kills. If you kill the same amount of probes that he kills, your life is much better. | ||
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DeepGreen
United States175 Posts
On November 03 2008 04:20 waterGHOSTCLAWdragon wrote: As freelander pointed out, you actually don't care how much every probe costs, but you care about the difference in mining time; Aka how much is your opponent getting ahead with each probe he kills. If you kill the same amount of probes that he kills, your life is much better. Yeah, I'm curious to see just how close 1 probe kill early on comes to being worth the cost of a zealot. | ||
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
On November 03 2008 04:44 DeepGreen wrote: Yeah, I'm curious to see just how close 1 probe kill early on comes to being worth the cost of a zealot. depends at what point in the game is the easy answer. I believe that's a poorly phrased question... | ||
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