[G][Q] My zerg on coke - Page 17

Avidkeystamper

United States8552 Posts

November 09 2008 23:11 GMT

#321

On November 10 2008 05:52 MiStAh wrote:
Well, I played you and you called me a hacker bud. And your queens weren't that effective. They just ensnared me and that's all.

Wonder why?

MiStAh

United States98 Posts

November 10 2008 04:35 GMT

#322

I wasn't hacking ~_~, and i actually walked in your 3rd by accident >_> if you want to re then alright sure.

Deathfate

Spain555 Posts

November 10 2008 18:56 GMT

#323

Please stop spamming nonsense and just upload replays and remark issues that you may have with this strat.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

November 11 2008 03:19 GMT

#324

http://www.savefile.com/files/1880694

The above link is a C level ZvT with me going queens (Misrah's build) on Destination 1.1. The guy I played was a 60% win rate C (I am a 52% win rate C) and was Korean with about 300 apm.

Notes:

You do have to start pumping Zerglings before they push out. You saw how I didn't even kill his army even though his medics weren't there, and that was my fault for not flanking properly. It is essential you survive the first push, although it is still playable if you lose a hatch as I did because you still have 3 hatcheries.
A late rax allows 3 hatch before pool, as I did, although a good Terran will expand with 1 marine if you do so. It is your choice on which to do.
Science vessels really are a big problem. Although Misrah said hydralisks are good enough to take out the science vessels, they really aren't enough. If they build up enough, as in any ZvT, you're screwed.
Dropships are the key to killing this build - there's almost no protection against a high DPS drop that can dish out tons of damage before you arrive. Although it's easier to deal with using hydraling than lurkers, drops are a lot easier for the Terran to pull off because of your lack of a spire. If the Terran in this game focused more on drops, he would easily have won.
The terran in this game had some amazing macro from my perspective, he had huge forces - he did forget supply depots and stuff, but everytime I saw his army I got really scared. My question to you guys is whether he had so many units because he delayed his third? However, just watch how those armies crumble when ensared.
I forgot to upgrade ensnare and almost lost when his second push with ~3 tanks came.
Infested Command Center
My gas differs slightly from Misrah's. I do my first gas into zergling speed to hold off any fast pushes. My next gas goes into the carapace. Third is lair, and last is hydralisk den. If you go hydralisk den before lair, you can't get the upgrades, or you'll have to delay your lair, therefore it would be a waste. I find that this is the most efficient as far as I've played so far.

Edit: Chill made fun of this build in the Cholera vs Chill showmatch! Show him wrong!!!

A3iL3r0n

United States2196 Posts

November 11 2008 04:24 GMT

#325

On November 11 2008 12:19 Superiorwolf wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

You do have to start pumping Zerglings before they push out. You saw how I didn't even kill his army even though his medics weren't there, and that was my fault for not flanking properly. It is essential you survive the first push, although it is still playable if you lose a hatch as I did because you still have 3 hatcheries.
A late rax allows 3 hatch before pool, as I did, although a good Terran will expand with 1 marine if you do so. It is your choice on which to do.
Science vessels really are a big problem. Although Misrah said hydralisks are good enough to take out the science vessels, they really aren't enough. If they build up enough, as in any ZvT, you're screwed.
Dropships are the key to killing this build - there's almost no protection against a high DPS drop that can dish out tons of damage before you arrive. Although it's easier to deal with using hydraling than lurkers, drops are a lot easier for the Terran to pull off because of your lack of a spire. If the Terran in this game focused more on drops, he would easily have won.
The terran in this game had some amazing macro from my perspective, he had huge forces - he did forget supply depots and stuff, but everytime I saw his army I got really scared. My question to you guys is whether he had so many units because he delayed his third? However, just watch how those armies crumble when ensared.
I forgot to upgrade ensnare and almost lost when his second push with ~3 tanks came.
Infested Command Center
My gas differs slightly from Misrah's. I do my first gas into zergling speed to hold off any fast pushes. My next gas goes into the carapace. Third is lair, and last is hydralisk den. If you go hydralisk den before lair, you can't get the upgrades, or you'll have to delay your lair, therefore it would be a waste. I find that this is the most efficient as far as I've played so far.

Edit: Chill made fun of this build in the Cholera vs Chill showmatch! Show him wrong!!!

Just watching it now...

•The first major battle that finishes 12:00 minutes into the replay, the Terran does not have range upgraded and Zerg did. This makes a big difference because of the Ensare, marines were walking forward to fire so slowly. That was the turning point of the game. Pretty amazing what Ensare does though.

Nice replay.

I do think though that more calculated Terran play wins this game. He got behind in upgrades, and expanded late. No dropship play, as you said.

CDRdude

United States5625 Posts

November 11 2008 05:05 GMT

#326

I'm watching the replay now, but I have to pause and say something at the 10 minute mark.
+ Show Spoiler +

DUDE, WHY DID YOU KILL PANDA-BEAR GUY?

edit: Also, is my replay screwed up, or after T left, did you continue to play for a few minutes?

Rucky

United States717 Posts

November 11 2008 05:12 GMT

#327

More calculated w/e race wins the game obviously. Even to a really good terran player. If he loses the game, of course you can find the flaws and say he should have done this and that. Games are usually won or lost because of flaws and capitalization. If that is not the case than the other only won or lost is build order win like perfect counters.

About drops being hard to deal with. I think drops are always hard to deal with in any zvt game. By mid-late game, drops will occur in zvt. I think by mid-late game, no matter what build zerg is doing, ALMOST most of the time, zerg should have all their tech buildings up including the spire. I don't think anyone should not build a spire when it is needed just because misrah said no spire, hydras can do the job. (i'm not sure if he even said that...or maybe he implied it)

The question is if the build can be used here and there with the other standard builds. By the way, zerg is vertile and assimilation race. so go and assimilate terran's build then beat it down.

Misrah

United States1695 Posts

November 11 2008 05:18 GMT

#328

Superior! Holy shit. I thought that you had given up on this build lol. I still don't have any good definitive replays against good opponents, but man- that was a nice game you played.

Superior, so do you feel that this build could be used at upper level play? I mean 300apm is not shabby. I tried to ask Chill if he would play this bo and then post reps- but sadly, i guess he decided not to.

Did he really talk about this in the show match?

Rep plz?

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

November 11 2008 05:48 GMT

#329

Yes, I did play for a few more minutes. He drop hacked and I wanted to see what he had; I felt it was close the whole game. I don't know what level of play it can be used up to... we'll have to wait and see, and also see better players use it.

Chill said something along these lines, from what a friend told me:
"I bet what Cholera is doing is some dumb, hydraling queen build used midgame that will never work.."

village_idiot

2436 Posts

November 11 2008 05:57 GMT

#330

A few things about Superiorwolf's rep:

Impressive how he won even though he was essentually playing with 2.5 bases the entire game.

Excellent ensnaring, partly because the Terran didn't bother to research Restoration and cure his vessels.

Drops rape hard.

All in all, a very interesting rep. More like this, please.

Smurg

Australia3818 Posts

November 11 2008 06:18 GMT

#331

We should get the translation team to translate this into Korean, and try use our TL connections to get it to an S-class progamer...and then use our TL connections again to get reps off them and see how it is played on the top level.

Misrah

United States1695 Posts

November 11 2008 06:20 GMT

#332

On November 11 2008 15:18 Smurg wrote:
We should get the translation team to translate this into Korean, and try use our TL connections to get it to an S-class progamer...and then use our TL connections again to get reps off them and see how it is played on the top level.

If that would ever happen, i would probably consider my life complete.

Deathfate

Spain555 Posts

November 11 2008 12:12 GMT

#333

I think the easiest way to counter drops is parasiting the dropships, of course u have to face the first drop but then that dropship would be useless. Thanks for posting more replays.

village_idiot

2436 Posts

November 11 2008 13:57 GMT

#334

Well, I tried this strategy somewhat and it worked at D level. I played a horrible sloppy game, but thankfully the Terran didn't use drops. I opened with 9pool and from there 3hatch muta from which I transitioned into hydraling queen and then Ultrahydralingqueen.

The Terran goes 2rax CC and never harasses me, just tries to move out and kill me outright, has only 1 fact, one eng bay.

I never get a good econ running, because I forgot to pump drones at the muta phase... I'm surprised I even managed to beat this guy.

I'll post more if I manage to find any Terrans on iCCup. I've been fighting 7 protoss in a row now.

Rep:
[url blocked]

BlasiuS

United States2405 Posts

November 11 2008 15:26 GMT

#335

On November 11 2008 21:12 Battle wrote:
I think the easiest way to counter drops is parasiting the dropships, of course u have to face the first drop but then that dropship would be useless. Thanks for posting more replays.

I don't think this will work; any decent terran will immediately research restoration upon seeing parasites, especially since he has lots of medics with plenty of energy already.

The key to beating drops is to add in a spire when you have the advantage (i.e. you win your first battle, you beat his push, you delay push by broodling tanks, etc.), and have good ol placement. Keep a sunken by your mineral lines, and always check your minimap, to react as soon as you see it coming.

Deathfate

Spain555 Posts

November 11 2008 23:31 GMT

#336

On November 12 2008 00:26 BlasiuS wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes you are right, but getting the spire is not that easy till your hive is done, maybe you can face those dropships with borrowed hydras till your scourges are on the field.

simon311A

United States29 Posts

November 15 2008 00:55 GMT

#337

What is worse than the Q word by far is the H word. A single 25 mineral zergling does more damage than a hydra in zvt. So I fail to see how getting these costly hydra upgrades, and these 25 gas hydras is saving you gas. People here should really stop deluding themselves in thinking that hydras are viable in zvt at all.

Queens? Sure, maybe, but get them by lowering your lurker count slightly, don't start getting this ridiculous unit (hydra) that cannot achieve anything in zvt.

Superiorwolf

United States5509 Posts

November 15 2008 01:31 GMT

#338

On November 15 2008 09:55 simon311A wrote:
What is worse than the Q word by far is the H word. A single 25 mineral zergling does more damage than a hydra in zvt. So I fail to see how getting these costly hydra upgrades, and these 25 gas hydras is saving you gas. People here should really stop deluding themselves in thinking that hydras are viable in zvt at all.

Queens? Sure, maybe, but get them by lowering your lurker count slightly, don't start getting this ridiculous unit (hydra) that cannot achieve anything in zvt.

Takes damage and makes it easier to flank - it is much easier and convenient moving around your hydraling forces than it is to move around lurker ling and burrow them all the time. Pure ling and ensnare is not as effective as hydraling and ensnare. Lurkerling and ensnare is too difficult to pull off a perfect flank to get their army, and regardless of ensnare lurkers can get shot down fairly quickly before they burrow. With hydraling, you bring a very large front for a Terran to deal with while ensnared.

A single 25 mineral zergling does not do as much damage as a hydra if it gets shot down before it can even reach a huge marine ball. You need the hydralisks. They seem to be viable at C level as far as it's been tested so far, and we'll see if they can be used at even higher levels.

You aren't using hydras late game, they are used as a transition in middle game to late game. 25 gas hydras and 300/300 upgrades and lings is definitely less gas heavy than 200/200 lurker upgrades and 125 gas lurkers and 11 mutas (1100/1100). You'll have more units overall with hydraling.

simon311A

United States29 Posts

November 15 2008 01:45 GMT

#339

Two zerglings take just about as much to shoot down as a hydra. So what are you saying, that the hydras take the damage, while lings stream in to destroy the ensnared army? Problem with that is that if you had 2 lings to take the damage instead of the hydra, it would buy you just as much time, but actually give you some offensive power.

Wala.Revolution

7582 Posts

November 15 2008 01:52 GMT

#340

You assume those lings would be attacking 100% of the time AND that it would be 1v1 fight with the marines. Hydras have range, hence they take less damage because less marines' guns can reach them; therefore, lings might not do any damage at all as they have to REACH their target, but often, they die before.

400 lings=/=2000 damage per cycle. That doesn't mean hydras do 2000 damage per cycle, but much more than lings. (unupgraded)

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