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Playing as Pro versus terran how can you break a push/defence consisting of tanks and goliaths.
I played a game and was expecting to counter his push with a zealot drop from 2 shuttles but the goliaths picked them off before my speedlots could even say Auir. With no zealots to break in, my main army was destroyed very quickly. What would be a better way to beat this combination?
If I played it again I would not have attacked his push at that point, I would have let him come closer letting me organise my units better, instead of sending them in dribs and drabs. I should have exerted better map control vs quite a defensive player aswell.
I include the replay and there are many reasons why I lost (apart from me not being very good). Brief synopsis - earlier pressure from me held him back and let me get my 2nd expo before him but his combination of large numbers of turrets stopped me dropping as much as I had planned to. He stomped up to my base and I lost my entire army in a few seconds.
Replay
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first off, you should work on your apm and macro. THIS IS ESSENTIAL. although you were producing probes at a good rate, there were times when your 2 gateways where idle for a long time, which negates the point of 2gate. later you had 4 gates,a robo bay and a forge inactive for a long time with 700 mins in the bank.
after putting your opponent behind and shaking him up with a gas steal, you lost that advantage by losing your first zeal force which achieved next to nothing.
after seeing that he was going to be walling in, and probably producing many marines due to gas steal, dragoons would have been a better choice than mass zeals.
ok, when you saw him go to take his 3rd, you sent a nice force to stop him, and delayed it, however, you dropped the reaver first, before any other troops had arrived meaning it got taken out in seconds. at this point you should take another base, add gates, and outmacro him.
when the actually attack came, he outpositioned you on the high ground and just raped you. he lost 1 tank and 1 gol to your entire army.
i cant stress enough how much you need to macro. scouting is probably the 2nd thing you need to improve.
ps. macro.
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I can't watch the replay since I'm at work, but you should have observers over his units when he's moving out, and therefore notice he has gols and not send the shuttle in.
I think in general if a terran is going fast expo then sitting there making tank gol instead of tank vult then you can take advantage of that fact by taking a quick 3rd expo, possibly even a 4th(no vults to harass and a later move out from terran), then just gate up, power units like some kind of fiend and you should have enough to crush his tank+gol when it moves out.
Without watching the rep I can't really help too much so sorry if this wasnt relevant
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I saw the replay. Seemed like a fair match up. The two gate didn't seem so effective. One gate and then a core would have been more flexible. You might have considered playing a game of macro. The terran player stayed in his base and only scanned to see if you expo'ed or not.
The problem was that the terran player approached your natural and sieged with his tanks. He drew out your dragoons which murdered a bit of your force. The best reason why he killed off your army was because he had the ledge advantage. Next time, make sure your enemy doesn't have that advantage. Secure that higher ground that rightfully belongs to you. 
A good counter for a terran's mech defense, in my opinion, would be arbiters. By upgrading stasis, you can cut down on the enemy's force such that you can fight a smaller force. If you want to recall, it's risky. A good terran player will plant mines in their base so that your recall will fail.
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There's a reason why Terran players use Tank/Vulture instead of Tank/Goliath in TvP. Goliaths aren't as effective both damage wise and cost wise as Vultures are and since he's investing vespene into making Goliaths, he's not spending them on Tanks. A good mix of Zealots + Dragoons should be more than enough to take down players like these.
In PvT I love forcing the Terran to OD on Goliaths to counter my Carriers and then stop producing Carriers to make more ground army and then destroy his Tank/Goliath army 
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On April 04 2008 02:31 Equinox_kr wrote:There's a reason why Terran players use Tank/Vulture instead of Tank/Goliath in TvP. Goliaths aren't as effective both damage wise and cost wise as Vultures are and since he's investing vespene into making Goliaths, he's not spending them on Tanks. A good mix of Zealots + Dragoons should be more than enough to take down players like these. In PvT I love forcing the Terran to OD on Goliaths to counter my Carriers and then stop producing Carriers to make more ground army and then destroy his Tank/Goliath army
this is right you shouldnt have even attempted to use shuttles when you saw goliaths just waited for zeal speed (assuming you didnt have it) and attack it then you would have probably won fairly e-zily
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In addition to what everyone else said, Psi Storm.
Its really good against goliath/tank clumps.
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On April 04 2008 06:28 FieryBalrog wrote:
In addition to what everyone else said, Psi Storm.
Its really good against goliath/tank clumps.
Didn't watch (don't have starcraft installed), but Psi storm is usually later.
I'm a toss player, so some general tips (again, apologies for not being able to watch it):
1. Rush with your initial goons. Force him to waste minerals on marines. If he FE, take two expos into observatory to be safe, or reaver harass if you're a little devil (but taking 2 expos is safer, he can't touch you for a while).
2. You usually want to contain/delay with goons while you out-macro him and get speedzealots.
3. You should always take note of his zealot to vulture ratio with your obs.
4. If he has goliaths, you should have speedlots. After all, adding armory for him means time to add citadel for you. This makes for a nice transition into temp as well.
5. Finally, remember that tanks are very weak on the run cost for cost. 100 gas did not buy these guys a lot of HP or firepower when moving along. Work on dragoon management to reduce his troop numbers and try flanks (I'm thinking of open maps like Python where this is easy).
But yeah, like others have said, macro is crucial. You can almost macro only in PvT with the only micro being don't run your goons into the range of tanks before you're ready.
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Hi! Ima a noob
but the 2 things that terrify me most when im trying to push a toss are
1. Getting attacked unseiged by a huge force with speedlots
2. Getting flanked by a huge force.
Like others have said Macro and Scouting. If you scout better and time your attack to when you know he is vulnerable to a flank or assault, but it still takes a pretty deep force to destroy the terran army without resorting to storms, reavers, other high tech.
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thanks for the replies everyone. Each post had something to help me improve.
I'm still not liking gols/tanks thought 
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i would suggest psi storm as well as flanking using recall.
make sure your force has more speedlots than anything else as this is essential to killing tanks
upgrades will help as well.
hope this helps
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Didn't watch the replay.
But from my limited expirience. (D lvl only)
Goliaths + tanks + Science vessels > anything toss has, however you'll have quantity advantage.
It's normal for me to lose my entrire army 3 - 4 times before I completely destroy his army.
At that point my army #5 is on it's way but he has no money left to battle it... GG! WP... o da!
Army control is a MUST! Otherwise only army #7 or #8 will take him out! (1a2a3a4a5a ^^ )
ps the only way to beat a T is to outMACRO him... T units are too strong in defence mode!
User was warned for this post
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It's highly doubtful that that same guy is still around, still playing broodwar, and still stuck on this same dilemma.
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On May 18 2011 06:24 zobz wrote:
It's highly doubtful that that same guy is still around, still playing broodwar, and still stuck on this same dilemma.
The truth is always sad.
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there shouldn't be any timing push that includes armory and goliaths that should kill you at a timing where zealot bombs should be relied on.
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On May 18 2011 06:15 ExectiveDmitri wrote:
Didn't watch the replay.
But from my limited expirience. (D lvl only)
Goliaths + tanks + Science vessels > anything toss has, however you'll have quantity advantage.
It's normal for me to lose my entrire army 3 - 4 times before I completely destroy his army.
At that point my army #5 is on it's way but he has no money left to battle it... GG! WP... o da!
Army control is a MUST! Otherwise only army #7 or #8 will take him out! (1a2a3a4a5a ^^ )
ps the only way to beat a T is to outMACRO him... T units are too strong in defence mode!
Look up at the top of your post. See that thing next to your name? It's a timestamp with date/time of your post. That timestamp is located on every post. As you can now see, you were responding to someone that hasn't been around this thread for 3 years.
Another thing teamliquid does to help you is in the bottom right of any post over 2 months (I THINK it's 2 months, not sure on the exact time) the text "OLD POST" reads in all capitals.
Hope this will improve your teamliquid browsing experience!
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lol...... this necro is so out of place i dont even know whether to be annoyed or to laugh
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EPT
