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I've had a few ZvP games yesterday with a friend and he added reavers into his unit mix and protected them quite well
I just need to know how to counter such a mix: it was 3-4 reavers behind an army of dragoons and archons, he even had a few zealots to take care of any lings that may try get to the reavers
my army consisted of lings, hydras and mutas (about 8-9)
i thought my mutas would be enough to fend off his reavers, so i sent in my forces to distract the archons and dragoons while my mutas tried to take care of the reavers, but before they even reached the reavers they were pretty much vaporized by the archons and dragoons while the reavers took care of my advancing army, he had a shuttle to protect the reavers but didn't even have to use it since the reavers were so well protected - and this was all happening while my ultra cavern was still morphing
the only solution to this i can think off is to scout his tech early on so i can prepare for it by making more mutas and getting ultras out earlier, but even with ultras i don't think i'd be able to break such an army, since archons can hold back the ultras
My apologies for not providing the replay/s (forgot to save), but how do i counter such a unit mix without ultras?
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defilers to plague everything (NOT THE ARCHONS) and send scourge to kill the shuttle. OR Build many sunken and get maybe a guardian or two to pick off the reaver, if the goons get close to the sunken line they will get tentacle raped.
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lol. guards are effective vs that mix, but a few storms can level them. however on defense its one of the best things if they dont have sairs.
Mostly though, swarm ultralinglurker or alternatively, hydras mixed in your force and good positioning, hydras are equal or good at taking out all 3 of those units you just dont want to get stormed or have them running through a line of goons/zeals.
Mutas can work but if its a huge battle, like both forces maxed.. ist not worth it. 1 storm + an archon will take out your mutas to the point that they wont be able to finish the reavers quickly enough.
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if i dont have ultras, i most likely won't have defilers, i only have hydras, lings and mutas to work with
he pushed quite early, it seems he sacrificed long term economy for fast tech and it was a pretty high tech rush
it was those reavers that really hurt, dunno how much swarms would've helped since scarabs are splash damage (?)
how do i break through the dragoon and archon army when i have scarabs constantly being thrown at me, is it really hopeless at this point or is there a way the Z can sneak past and give those reavers a nasty suprise?
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If he has that large of an army, you can assume it's fairly late game and you'd have those units. If not, you should still have many units and be able to flank and pick off the reavers easily.
Btw, yes, reavers do damage under swarm but you said his army was mainly of goons, which obviously don't damage under swarm. With a good flank you should be able to easily destroy it because reavers can't kill as many units. Just masses of lurker ling or hydra lurker ling or muta ling would be good with a nice flank.
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I would guess you just don't engage the army, since reaver without shuttles are not very mobile. So giving up an expand to keep your army and kill one of his expands is fine. Don't engage the army while it is in a defensive position since toss with high temps and reavers are very strong in that position. Wait for a better attacking position (e.g. he split is forces to defend an expansion and there are less units around the reavers or he's on the move) or higher tech units.
If his army is on the move and he has them in shuttles and you're in a good position to attack, just attack while bringing in the scourge slightly behind. Hopefully he won't drop them in time, or he only dropped one or two of them.
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United States1655 Posts
Make sure to get a good flank. If his army is goon heavy, swarm and plague will be very helpful (I think a Defiler Mound is faster than Ultra Cavern).
I usually like Hydras to pick off Reavers because I like trying to micro them. Depending on the situation and your micro however, you may want to use a different unit or unit mix.
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On February 14 2008 15:01 nevake wrote:
I would guess you just don't engage the army, since reaver without shuttles are not very mobile. So giving up an expand to keep your army and kill one of his expands is fine. Don't engage the army while it is in a defensive position since toss with high temps and reavers are very strong in that position. Wait for a better attacking position (e.g. he split is forces to defend an expansion and there are less units around the reavers or he's on the move) or higher tech units.
If his army is on the move and he has them in shuttles and you're in a good position to attack, just attack while bringing in the scourge slightly behind. Hopefully he won't drop them in time, or he only dropped one or two of them.
I agree with this - op said his enemy had shuttle btw. I really doubt there's an insane amount of units, with archons AND high templars AND 4 reavers. Goon+hightemplar+archon+reaver = 9151591357t326t793257329573250632532y8t32t0732t027 gas
edit: nvm op didnt say high templars, but still... anyways you said he had a few zealots, make sure you have greater than or equal carapace to his weapons obviously lol
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When I see that, I go lurkers ling and Muta. Usually I distract the scarbs with the lings, and burrow the lurkers. When they move towards lurkers, I send in mutas.
I get like a 50/50 win. I throw in a defiler or 2.
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Flank + Upgrades
Ling/Hydra army should own that, especially if you get cracks or plague.
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I hope you are not attacking head on Tang(OP)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
As a protoss, Reavers are fucking good. Since you spend so much gas on archons you never have storm - and reavers with upgrades are like 15mineral storms - fucking awesome 
Theres no definitive counter to them that i know of - definitely not muta. With Archons (possibly 1 or 2 temps) lying around i don't like your chances of a lategame mass. Also if he is still goon heavy if you went lurkers.
Swarm is only really useful when he's got goons or lots of archons, so its not really a hard counter. Plague on the other hand helps ALOT (and is severely underused imo), can turn those 100/60 zealots into 2/60 zealots which makes life a fuckton easier.
The real disadvantage with reavers is their mobility. You never want to engage his army head on, because eith 4, 5 or even 6 reaver packing about 500-750 damage each volley your army won't last very long. Its a matter of restricting the protoss econ/unit production and trying to get him to divert funds elsewhere (as opposed to beefing up his army with zealots/archons). Drops could be very viable here (unlikely that he'll be archon, reaver AND sair heavy.. no enough gas for all three) especially when the protoss army is walking about. Taking out gateways hurt alot - especially when you constantly need that shield for your reavers.
So to keep things short, you can't outright beat him you have to wear him down over time with plague + restricting his econ until you have a monster econ or are able to make him gg.
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Flank, and defilers.
Swarm vs arch/goon/reaver is heavenly. Yes reavers and archs still do splash, but swarm abuses the ranged damage and it also forces the toss army out of formation (easier to catch reavers too).
meanwhile, flank.
Also, the more gas he has in goon/arch/reaver, the less storm he has. Adjust by making more hydra, and less ultraling. Ultraling dies pretty horribly to that unit mix unless youre quite far ahead economically.
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hmmmm, so flanking is the key here, yea i can see that, only that when we went head on he was the one that engaged me while i was still rallying my forces in one spot
but i suppose with good reflexes i can pull off a flank
on a slightly related topic, i was watching some ZvP replays yesterday where the protoss went reaver + corsair and he was winning start to finish, my god, it's such a dominant build if you have decent micro
anyways, i think i have the answer i was looking for, thx for the help everyone!
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IMO, you will need a sufficient Lurker/hydra/ling ground force to take on the goon/zealot front. (usually, the reavers are transported by shuttle(s) so if you can pick off/ harass the shuttles with your scourges prior to his push, you can slow him down, or if lucky, kill the reavers in 'em.
Remember to have a control group with the sole mission of killing the reavers, no matter what. your front will only serve as a distraction/ soakers to the fire. there must be a flank of hydras dedicated to kill the reavers and the shuttle it uses to ferry. Flanking is the key.
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basically there is no "omgwtfbbq" counter to that army. You've got to mass shitload of units and roll it over. !!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 15 2008 18:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
basically there is no "omgwtfbbq" counter to that army. You've got to mass shitload of units and roll it over. !! disagree;
mass units vs 6reavers + decent size protoss army?
you're going to get munched and be severely behind =/
you really need to take an approach which revolves around long term gains and gradually wearing down his army to a point where even if you get munched, your macro can replace your army quickly and munch him back
im hungry >.>
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On February 15 2008 19:07 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2008 18:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
basically there is no "omgwtfbbq" counter to that army. You've got to mass shitload of units and roll it over. !! disagree; mass units vs 6reavers + decent size protoss army? you're going to get munched and be severely behind =/ you really need to take an approach which revolves around long term gains and gradually wearing down his army to a point where even if you get munched, your macro can replace your army quickly and munch him back im hungry >.>
Make a guide based on munching your opponents army. I'd read it.
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Mix Hydra in your army oo;
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On February 15 2008 19:07 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2008 18:09 evanthebouncy! wrote:
basically there is no "omgwtfbbq" counter to that army. You've got to mass shitload of units and roll it over. !! disagree; mass units vs 6reavers + decent size protoss army? you're going to get munched and be severely behind =/ you really need to take an approach which revolves around long term gains and gradually wearing down his army to a point where even if you get munched, your macro can replace your army quickly and munch him back im hungry >.>
i agree with plexa here. As a protoss player, what would hurt more the invincible toss mass would be guerrilla tactics. Maybe losing few units along the way and being unable to reinforce, so when it reaches destination it would be cracked by a good flank of hydra ling.
But the best bet you can do against an army so diverse, is having a diverse army of your own. The more units you mix, the more effective it will be. hydra lurk ling ultra guard maybe if gas allows. He'll have to prioritize on one target first, letting the rest deal the damage.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
okay so like i said in the other thread which i immediately closed
what the fuck are you doing attacking an army like that head-on? you should be countering
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You basically just have to outresource him and spread your units/flank well. 3/3/3 ling/hydra/lurk + defilier for plague. Use smaller defilier/ling/hydra strikes on unguarded expansions using swarm. Keep his army busy. If you're pressuring him constantly, its very difficult for him to launch an effective offensive even with a superior army.
This is of course, very difficult to do and requires great multitask. But it should be your goal. You CANNOT directly engage a full teched/upgraded protoss army with archons/temps/and reavers. Theres no unit combo that will be effective unless hes significantly outnumbered and you flank from at least 3 directions.
Once again, focus on hurting his econ until you gain enough of a resource advantage to wear him down until your army is much much larger.
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don't attack.... get back and get more units.... or counter his base, get a couple scourages for the shuttle to shut off his mobility even more..
and get hydras if you're not gonna have swarm (but I don't understand why you don't have swarm, if you're that behind in tech, then I don't think being able to counter his unit mix is the problem)
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In much the same fashion as you don't engage a m/m ball, you don't engage a reaver mix. Not until you can decimate it with mass flanks, at least.
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Revears have few vulnerabilities :
1. cannot attack air
2. flank attack owns them(as probably every toss unit in PvZ, but storms are better)
3. aren't very good vs lings if you send wisely (a few at a time)
If there are no sairs, hydra+ling+guardian is probably the best.
Spread guardians vs storm.
Defiler's plague is a good choice too.
Just don't build ultras, they suck vs goon+archon, they do even more vs goon+archon+reavers.
Lurkers aren't good vs that combo too, same goes for mutas . That leaves us with the units I have mentioned previously.
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You attack his base instead with your inferior teched army because you don't have a single hive unit when you should've. I have a feeling your opponent outplayed you BEFORE it got to this stage because I'm picturing a 140 ish supply toss army vs a 100 ish Zerg one which is gg for you since he has tech and you don't.
The ideal counter to this is hydra/guardians btw. Everything else Zerg will pretty much melt. (Even defiler backed ultralings)
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Treat it like a terran push, just even slower. He'll take ages just to crawl to your base, so doom drop him, eat his expansions, kill observers to delay, intercept reinforcements and at some point those reavers will find themselves without support in hostile territory. Unless you feign death for like 10 minutes, it's impossible for toss to get a full orchestra (with reavers) until you hit hive, so first prep him with plague, then, if his archon/goon count is high, flank with ultra/ling under swarm. Remember that toss invested a literal shitton of shittons of gas into this, so he's not gonna recover fast. If it's primarily zealot/reaver, you're better off with hydra/ling/lurker/plague, but low archon count is really easier. Also make sure to do some damage before he hits both +3 shields and scarab damage, zerg has the momentum when he enters hive tech, but, as shield upgrade number grows, toss units become harder and harder to kill.
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If his attack came early like you said, and he does not have high templars mixed into his army, then i think that the best counter to this build is mass hydra and attacking from differnet directions. the key is to be able to scout that he is going reavers because if you dont scout it and you go something like lurker ling you will get raped. Hydras do well vs reavers, fairly well vs goons, and also do well vs archons i think that they are your best bet. Also, if he is waiting for reavers to move across the map he will be extremely immobile and you can proceed tot ake as many expos as you want.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
im tentative to suggest hydralisks- Relatively easy to spot the tech change
- Protoss can react by not morphing archons
- Reavers still hurt hydra alot
- Keep in mind most Zerg don't upgrade spines, so you'll be 0-3 against his 3-0-3
I really think that ultra/ling/defiler is the best bet - because it is the most resistant to any tech changes Protoss does. Of course you just have to play somewhat differently to normal wearing the protoss down exploiting his lack of mobility.
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On February 20 2008 09:56 Plexa wrote:im tentative to suggest hydralisks - Relatively easy to spot the tech change
- Protoss can react by not morphing archons
- Reavers still hurt hydra alot
- Keep in mind most Zerg don't upgrade spines, so you'll be 0-3 against his 3-0-3
I really think that ultra/ling/defiler is the best bet - because it is the most resistant to any tech changes Protoss does. Of course you just have to play somewhat differently to normal wearing the protoss down exploiting his lack of mobility.
maybe i should have clarified what i meant better, i meant to say that if he scouts reavers earlier or sees that a reaver/goon combo is going to occur then the easiest counter to this is to upgrade hydras(i would get on three evos so you can be 3-3-3 incase he tech changes and you need to switch tech) with as many hatches as possible, while exping anywhere he can since protoss mobility is so horrendous with this unit combo. Defiler usage is always critical when facing a goon heavy army, but i think that defilers coupled with hydras will be more effective then defiler/ultra/ling simply because reavers/archons along with heavy goon count can rape that so hard with decent goon micro. I'm not saying that it couldnt work, I just think that hydra/defiler would be more effective if he notices that the protoss is going to mix reavers into his army.
I think that the real key to stopping this protoss army though is taking any and all exps you can. He will be so immobile that you can grab the entire map and even if a couple of expos go down it is inconsequential. If you get enough gases, and have the eco to do so some kind of defiler/ultra/hydra would surely rape (however this is usually unrealistic).
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IT's all about your micro and the way u flank him. I remember some vods pusan vs savior i i think, he had a big army of reavers (5/7)+ goons + zealots archon and savior made a mix of upgraded zerlings / hydra / lurks , it was very close but little by litle he could reduce pusan army.
U did not provide the replay and of course if u had not about the same army of the protoss it would be impossible. Advicing defilers mm kay but why not advicing mass gaurdians 200/200. I mean i guess it was very close game and u could not really afford thoses defilers in the good timing.
edit : i found the vod and its a very good game :
http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-636836913959237770&q=savior pusan reverse temple&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0
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if the toss doesn't micro his reavers, 12 hydas can take out 3 reavers, you have to line them up first, and try to make all 3 reavers target the one hydra, then you have to purposefully move up hydras one at a time so the AI automatically targets it (it picks the closest threat)
if not...try to utilize zerg mobility, don't force a confrontation until you have the appropriate tech
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EPT
