disagree;
mass units vs 6reavers + decent size protoss army?
you're going to get munched and be severely behind =/
you really need to take an approach which revolves around long term gains and gradually wearing down his army to a point where even if you get munched, your macro can replace your army quickly and munch him back

im hungry >.>

i agree with plexa here. As a protoss player, what would hurt more the invincible toss mass would be guerrilla tactics. Maybe losing few units along the way and being unable to reinforce, so when it reaches destination it would be cracked by a good flank of hydra ling.

But the best bet you can do against an army so diverse, is having a diverse army of your own. The more units you mix, the more effective it will be. hydra lurk ling ultra guard maybe if gas allows. He'll have to prioritize on one target first, letting the rest deal the damage.

EmeraldSparks

United States1451 Posts

February 16 2008 04:00 GMT

#23

Add queen.

FakeSteve[TPR]

Valhalla18444 Posts

February 16 2008 04:39 GMT

#24

okay so like i said in the other thread which i immediately closed

what the fuck are you doing attacking an army like that head-on? you should be countering

TheFoReveRwaR

United States10657 Posts

February 16 2008 05:08 GMT

#25

You basically just have to outresource him and spread your units/flank well. 3/3/3 ling/hydra/lurk + defilier for plague. Use smaller defilier/ling/hydra strikes on unguarded expansions using swarm. Keep his army busy. If you're pressuring him constantly, its very difficult for him to launch an effective offensive even with a superior army.

This is of course, very difficult to do and requires great multitask. But it should be your goal. You CANNOT directly engage a full teched/upgraded protoss army with archons/temps/and reavers. Theres no unit combo that will be effective unless hes significantly outnumbered and you flank from at least 3 directions.

Once again, focus on hurting his econ until you gain enough of a resource advantage to wear him down until your army is much much larger.

stanzzz

United States15 Posts

February 17 2008 21:34 GMT

#26

don't attack.... get back and get more units.... or counter his base, get a couple scourages for the shuttle to shut off his mobility even more..

and get hydras if you're not gonna have swarm (but I don't understand why you don't have swarm, if you're that behind in tech, then I don't think being able to counter his unit mix is the problem)

5HITCOMBO

Japan2239 Posts

February 18 2008 10:26 GMT

#27

In much the same fashion as you don't engage a m/m ball, you don't engage a reaver mix. Not until you can decimate it with mass flanks, at least.

LastWish

2015 Posts

February 19 2008 18:07 GMT

#28

Revears have few vulnerabilities :
1. cannot attack air
2. flank attack owns them(as probably every toss unit in PvZ, but storms are better)
3. aren't very good vs lings if you send wisely (a few at a time)

If there are no sairs, hydra+ling+guardian is probably the best.
Spread guardians vs storm.
Defiler's plague is a good choice too.

Just don't build ultras, they suck vs goon+archon, they do even more vs goon+archon+reavers.
Lurkers aren't good vs that combo too, same goes for mutas . That leaves us with the units I have mentioned previously.

KissBlade

United States5718 Posts

February 19 2008 18:28 GMT

#29

You attack his base instead with your inferior teched army because you don't have a single hive unit when you should've. I have a feeling your opponent outplayed you BEFORE it got to this stage because I'm picturing a 140 ish supply toss army vs a 100 ish Zerg one which is gg for you since he has tech and you don't.

The ideal counter to this is hydra/guardians btw. Everything else Zerg will pretty much melt. (Even defiler backed ultralings)

BluzMan

Russian Federation4235 Posts

February 19 2008 18:48 GMT

#30

Treat it like a terran push, just even slower. He'll take ages just to crawl to your base, so doom drop him, eat his expansions, kill observers to delay, intercept reinforcements and at some point those reavers will find themselves without support in hostile territory. Unless you feign death for like 10 minutes, it's impossible for toss to get a full orchestra (with reavers) until you hit hive, so first prep him with plague, then, if his archon/goon count is high, flank with ultra/ling under swarm. Remember that toss invested a literal shitton of shittons of gas into this, so he's not gonna recover fast. If it's primarily zealot/reaver, you're better off with hydra/ling/lurker/plague, but low archon count is really easier. Also make sure to do some damage before he hits both +3 shields and scarab damage, zerg has the momentum when he enters hive tech, but, as shield upgrade number grows, toss units become harder and harder to kill.

Aux1

United States780 Posts

February 20 2008 00:23 GMT

#31

If his attack came early like you said, and he does not have high templars mixed into his army, then i think that the best counter to this build is mass hydra and attacking from differnet directions. the key is to be able to scout that he is going reavers because if you dont scout it and you go something like lurker ling you will get raped. Hydras do well vs reavers, fairly well vs goons, and also do well vs archons i think that they are your best bet. Also, if he is waiting for reavers to move across the map he will be extremely immobile and you can proceed tot ake as many expos as you want.

Plexa

Aotearoa39261 Posts

February 20 2008 00:56 GMT

#32

im tentative to suggest hydralisks

Relatively easy to spot the tech change
Protoss can react by not morphing archons
Reavers still hurt hydra alot
Keep in mind most Zerg don't upgrade spines, so you'll be 0-3 against his 3-0-3

I really think that ultra/ling/defiler is the best bet - because it is the most resistant to any tech changes Protoss does. Of course you just have to play somewhat differently to normal wearing the protoss down exploiting his lack of mobility.

Aux1

United States780 Posts

February 20 2008 02:10 GMT

#33

On February 20 2008 09:56 Plexa wrote:
im tentative to suggest hydralisks

Relatively easy to spot the tech change
Protoss can react by not morphing archons
Reavers still hurt hydra alot
Keep in mind most Zerg don't upgrade spines, so you'll be 0-3 against his 3-0-3

maybe i should have clarified what i meant better, i meant to say that if he scouts reavers earlier or sees that a reaver/goon combo is going to occur then the easiest counter to this is to upgrade hydras(i would get on three evos so you can be 3-3-3 incase he tech changes and you need to switch tech) with as many hatches as possible, while exping anywhere he can since protoss mobility is so horrendous with this unit combo. Defiler usage is always critical when facing a goon heavy army, but i think that defilers coupled with hydras will be more effective then defiler/ultra/ling simply because reavers/archons along with heavy goon count can rape that so hard with decent goon micro. I'm not saying that it couldnt work, I just think that hydra/defiler would be more effective if he notices that the protoss is going to mix reavers into his army.

I think that the real key to stopping this protoss army though is taking any and all exps you can. He will be so immobile that you can grab the entire map and even if a couple of expos go down it is inconsequential. If you get enough gases, and have the eco to do so some kind of defiler/ultra/hydra would surely rape (however this is usually unrealistic).

axel

France385 Posts

February 20 2008 11:33 GMT

#34

IT's all about your micro and the way u flank him. I remember some vods pusan vs savior i i think, he had a big army of reavers (5/7)+ goons + zealots archon and savior made a mix of upgraded zerlings / hydra / lurks , it was very close but little by litle he could reduce pusan army.

U did not provide the replay and of course if u had not about the same army of the protoss it would be impossible. Advicing defilers mm kay but why not advicing mass gaurdians 200/200. I mean i guess it was very close game and u could not really afford thoses defilers in the good timing.

edit : i found the vod and its a very good game :

http://video.google.fr/videoplay?docid=-636836913959237770&q=savior pusan reverse temple&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

caution.slip

United States775 Posts

February 23 2008 14:01 GMT

#35

if the toss doesn't micro his reavers, 12 hydas can take out 3 reavers, you have to line them up first, and try to make all 3 reavers target the one hydra, then you have to purposefully move up hydras one at a time so the AI automatically targets it (it picks the closest threat)

if not...try to utilize zerg mobility, don't force a confrontation until you have the appropriate tech