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On September 21 2024 03:57 Biff The Understudy wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8iD9Dn9d1rYMtcn, here is a game where a Guardian build almost takes out Flash. Also please watch that game and find a moment where 6 mutas could have spent 15 seconds hitting at a CC without getting wiped out. It wouldn’t be 15 seconds since the scvs would repair but nevermind. It seems to me that you are theorizing without all that much knowledge of the matchup and the meta. That’s fine, but you can trust someone like FlashFTW who really, really knows his stuff when he tells you something doesn’t make sense.
I am trying to find the game. In case that is the zelot vs flash, I watched it if that is what you mean.
Again, I won't mention things until they have happened. That is still a game falling flat on its face. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a big time JD fan and he doesn't talk big. You wouldn't find another person who roots more for guardian play, it is just not there yet. I'm trying to point out why.
I'm okay you discussing your points, just don't be unreasonably dismissive. Mutalisks have been played at the highest levels with success and I'm not discussing the meta. I'm just pointing out what makes it so successful when it happens to. You might be stuck on the 6 muta rush - all I'm saying is anything is better than early game zerglings and mutalisks are the alternative unless you want to gg with hydralisks against ZvT.
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On September 20 2024 23:13 mtcn77 wrote:
Mutalisks can choose to avoid incoming fire and spice things up.
On May 19 2005 23:13 Anakin Skywalker said:
Is it possible to learn this power?
You are clearly overestimating the freedom Mutas have in the matchup. One does not simply choose to avoid incoming fire. Avoiding incoming fire is a huge part of the Muta micro learning curve. It takes months (if not years) of deliberate practice to learn to navigate around Terran's defenses with your Mutas. Even as a player who averages ~180 APM on a good day, my APM easily goes up to 300 when I'm flying around a Terran's base looking for a weak spot to harass.
The time-to-kill in this matchup is incredibly short. The Mutas must keep moving for them to have a chance of being effective; any downtime where the Mutas are idle is often exploited by a group of Marines.
The 750 damage you're asking for is already a pretty large ask. In a normal game, dealing 750 damage would be roughly equivalent to killing, for example: 5 SCVs, 4 Marines, and 2 Turrets. That is an pretty darn good amount of damage! If I reliably do that in a game without losing my Mutas, I consider myself firmly in control of the game. In fact, that's an extra-challenging practical goal right there: "deal at least 750 damage with your Muta harass".
Most importantly, in a normal game, there are 2 key points that your proposal fails at completely:
1) the "minimum required damage" for every Muta strike is short and limited (40hp and 60hp). Significant damage be dealt in single maneuvers that only take a second or two each, which is important because Mutas don't have a fast attack speed;
2) the "payoff" of dealing that damage collected incrementally. Zergs can "cash in" victories in small increments, because every Marine or SCV you kill is a win. Medics do not have time to heal, and SCVs have very little time to react and repair. As such, there is a range of successes that can be had (1 kill, 2 kills... 10 kills).
To emphasize, you're asking to engage in a manner where:
1) the minimum required damage is seven hundred and fifty. Even if you had twelve fully upgraded Mutas, doing this would require 5 full attacks to achieve. Nothing is achieved in the first attack. Nothing is achieved in a second attack. Nothing is achieved in a third attack. Nothing is achieved in the fourth attack. Victory is *finally* achieved on the fifth attack. And all throughout, SCVs can be repairing.
2) the payoff is entirely binary. You either *infest* the command center, or you don't. Conversely, your Queen lives, or it dies. It wouldn't matter how many Mutas are alive at the end.
Please produce a replay where your strategy works at a similar in-game time. For your information, Muta harassment usually takes place around 6:00 or 7:00. You can find willing practice partners of all skill levels at https://cplbw.com .
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On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote:
Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant.
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high.
Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this.
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On December 28 2024 23:35 QRCode wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote:
Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant.
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this.
Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did!
Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians.
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On January 01 2025 06:44 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2024 23:35 QRCode wrote:On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote:
Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant.
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this. Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did! Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians.
Hey sorry for the late reply! It was actually a proleague game you can watch here (timestamped). However upon rewatch, I totally misremembered what happened, and it didn't quite go the way you described it. It was not after a muta harass and it happened to his third. Still, it was a good play that cut into Flash's lead, and I think it's good to keep thinking about new and creative ways to push the meta.
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I mean there is nothing wrong with using a manner Queen to infest a command centre in a situation where you are like, 30 supply ahead and double the worker count like in that game. Especially if the Terran for some reason can’t repair a CC after a drop or something.. It’s a fun way to say « get out of my game ».
It’s extreeeeeemely situational. It’s not at all a build or a strat or anything meta. There are some builds these days that involve queens for ensnare, against wraith strats or before transitioning to guardian. Of course if you are steamrolling the Terran base in one of those situations there is no reason not to infest if the occasion presents itself, but of course in that situation you have obviously won already.
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On January 06 2025 04:47 QRCode wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2025 06:44 mtcn77 wrote:On December 28 2024 23:35 QRCode wrote:On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote:
Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant.
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this. Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did! Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians. Hey sorry for the late reply! It was actually a proleague game you can watch here (timestamped). However upon rewatch, I totally misremembered what happened, and it didn't quite go the way you described it. It was not after a muta harass and it happened to his third. Still, it was a good play that cut into Flash's lead, and I think it's good to keep thinking about new and creative ways to push the meta.
Sir did you watch today's artosiscast? I thought you covered that since it could be uploaded later than the korean cast. It was a hit, too. I read someone called Saiyan recommended it to Artosis for stream. Gosh, I have to expand my starcraft correspondence. I don't know any of these new casters.
here
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On January 07 2025 11:57 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2025 04:47 QRCode wrote:On January 01 2025 06:44 mtcn77 wrote:On December 28 2024 23:35 QRCode wrote:On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote:
Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant.
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this. Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did! Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians. Hey sorry for the late reply! It was actually a proleague game you can watch here (timestamped). However upon rewatch, I totally misremembered what happened, and it didn't quite go the way you described it. It was not after a muta harass and it happened to his third. Still, it was a good play that cut into Flash's lead, and I think it's good to keep thinking about new and creative ways to push the meta. Sir did you watch today's artosiscast? I thought you covered that since it could be uploaded later than the korean cast. It was a hit, too. I read someone called Saiyan recommended it to Artosis for stream. Gosh, I have to expand my starcraft correspondence. I don't know any of these new casters. here
Nope, I didn't! Thanks for sharing! I wonder when this was played. Queen seems to be on a mission to incorporate the queen whenever he can, and he's been playing phenomenally lately.
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EPT
