EPTOn November 14 2007 01:00 BluzMan wrote:
Afaik, the genuine Bisu build involves probe cutting.
Afaik, the genuine Bisu build involves probe cutting.
Definitely not since I got this build from an actual replay of Bisu. GG
[G] Generalized Bisu Build (BO) - Page 3
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
Definitely not since I got this build from an actual replay of Bisu. GG | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Possibly hints that there isn't such thing as THE Bisu build, they are all map-specific. EDIT: I've watched game 1 of the MSL series, there was no probe cutting, but that game relied more on Savior's crucial mistakes rather than some innovating build order. Watching game 2 this very moment, iirc, Bisu went Sair/Reaver there. EDIT 2: Game 2 is indeed Sair/Reaver with standard build-up. Game 3, though is stargate -> 4 gate -> sair/DT harass -> +1 speedlot timing attack and DOES involve probe halt after second corsair. Imo, the most efficient build of all three, Savior was helpless in that game. WWI: Game 1 Hitchhiker - 1 gate sair/DT into expo. Irrelevant. Game 2 Blitz X - FE Sair/DT starts cutting probes after his first sair comes out to get stuff faster. Probe production completely halted after the third sair. Probe production resumed at around 80 psi after second expo is started. Game 3 RLT - 2 gate proxy zealot rush. Irrelevant. Dunno how to comment on that, you only listed the very early stages of the build, but imo the core of Bisu's builds is the timing of the second expo and follow-up timing attack with zealots. Saying "build probes all the way" is wrong imo. | ||
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grobo
Japan6199 Posts
On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote: I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply Hmm that seems highly unlikely. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
Like if everything goes right, I can nexus here, if he three hatches, I should send out my zealot around here... | ||
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
Now why do I say the thread fails? Because the reason Bisu's Bisu build is so successful is NOT because of the build order. It's because of his understanding of PvZ... something that one needs to experience, not memorize. Bisu's PvZ is so good because of his ability to predict and forsee the game before it happens, and change his build according to it. For example. If Savior opened with a 9 pool, you think he would have gated before cannon? If savior went 2 hatch hydra rush, or 3 hatch mass lings with no drones, you think he would have gotten stargate after only 1 cannon? No, Bisu does not create a build order and execute the exact same thing each time, he watches his opponent carefully with his probe, and tweaks his own build accordingly. Now I know you stated specifically at the beginning, So here it is. Keep in mind this is just one instance, I'm sure he does it slightly differently every time depending on the enemy's actions. Yet you state build orders up to 51 supply... which is only harming the ones learning the Bisu build, and not help. When making threads like these, you can't just say "do this, do that". You have to give a REASON and PURPOSE to each action. WHY do you build gateway at 17? WHY do you a zealot instead of a cannon? WHY do you make a corsair at this point? For example, 17 - Gateway at nat: You can build your gateway at this point because your scouting probe saw a 12 hatch, and not a pool-first build. Thus, you can rush your tech instead of building a couple of cannons that aren't needed this early. 24- Zealot: Your scouting probe, which should still be alive, should be watching how many lings and drones he has. Since he only has 4~6 lings chasing your probe, and all of his larva keep turning up drones, and he's gotten gas and hasn't retreated drones after the first 100, and his nat and main have plenty of drones, you can assume your base will not need additional defense. Instead, building a zealot will work as a counter attack, because his lings are still chasing your drone, thus his 2nd expansion is vulnerable to a zealot attack. And even if you missed a few more lings he created, having a zealot will work as a defensive and an offensive unit. Obviously if Bisu's scouting probe saw the zerglings speed upgraded, and saw 4~8 more lings pop out Bisu would have built a couple of cannons instead of the zealot... or built the zealot with the cannons and cut probe or tech. Each building built by Bisu is a decision arrived upon a carefully observed and calculated decision... not a memorized timing Bisu just uses every game. And THAT is the secret to Bisu's success.... NOT his build orders, and THAT is why this thread fails. EDIT: One more thing. I'm not saying memorizing build orders is bad. It does help you generate a basis to work on. But to attempt to memorize bo's into 51 supply, without understanding the mechanics of it, is a very bad idea. | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
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CapO
United States1615 Posts
On November 14 2007 14:37 Dromar wrote: This is very nice, thank you. | ||
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alpskomleko
Slovenia950 Posts
On November 14 2007 10:51 Live2Win wrote: .. AMEN .. And this is the reason why—ultimately—this thread delivers. | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
I think you missed the point of this thread entirely. Those steps were not meant to be phrased or written like suggestions. I was not trying to say this is what you do. Instead, I was trying to say, this is what Bisu did in this one game! That's why I included the step for scouting the 2nd hatch. I wasn't trying to say, "guise this is how u do t3h bisu build lol do it now" No more like I was trying to say this is what Bisu did in a game vs sAviOr since replays of Bisu are hard to come by. Sorry if I came off as trying to teach people. I only put [G] at the beginning of the title because nothing else fit. I'm not asking a question, I'm not asking for help, and this isn't an idea. So guide was the closest. While it's not actually a guide, although it could be considered as a guide for the bisu build in that specific instance of what the zerg player does. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
This is of course still helpful because some people still don't know the build order for generic FE, but the sad thing is that the BO vs 12 hatch is the easiest. I'd love someone writing down the BO for FE as a response to 9 pool, overpool and 12 pool respectively. There are actually several branches, while I tend to do it with probe cutting, there might be other ways. | ||
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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GMer[TOp]
Canada118 Posts
On November 05 2007 19:31 SoMuchBetter wrote: this is way too specific lol you should try to break it down into a way that one can actually follow, rather than expecting people to memorise 50 different points at which they should build things. ex) you fast expand and tech quickly stargate and templars. add gas to your natural very early as well then begin corsair pump. more corsairs if your opponent opens muta, less if den. fly around killing things with your sairs and get a dt out and try to kill things with that actually no buddy u need exact for perfection, why do you think koreans bo is better? cus they play by psi early game its obvious.. watch those how to videos with that london voice he talks about it according to psi on each video. | ||
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morfyy
Romania593 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
 Sinse you are not, as you say, trying to teach anyone anything, but rather inform about exactly what "the bisu build" could look like: maybe the thread would be better of in the broodwar forum? Also the problems with finding a tag could be taken as a sign that you're in the wrong forum.  Anyway, I enjoyed. I'll go and rewatch some bisu FPVods now! | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
The thread is clearly about a very specific protoss strategy of play (aka build order) versus zerg. It's not like general discussion of the game, it's very specifically strategy. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
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lastshadow
United States1372 Posts
On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote: I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build. Thats funny, since a study shows (XellOs 2004), ProGamers don't memorize food or money, they play completly on instinct and feeling, as typing is to a typist. So either the person you read was an amateur trying to go pro, in which he would need to memorize things, or your just completly pulling this out of your ass. Seeing how you said Pro, I'm assuming your lying. | ||
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