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SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;;
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this is way too specific lol
you should try to break it down into a way that one can actually follow, rather than expecting people to memorise 50 different points at which they should build things.
ex)
you fast expand and tech quickly stargate and templars. add gas to your natural very early as well then begin corsair pump. more corsairs if your opponent opens muta, less if den. fly around killing things with your sairs and get a dt out and try to kill things with that
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51454 Posts
I'd have to agree with SMB there.
Generalise it more so it can be varied for various situations, maps, players etc.
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
On November 05 2007 19:10 SuperJongMan wrote:
SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;;
Yeah, same here :D I still have issues when it comes to pylon/forge placement at nat...
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this thread would be 1000x better with just a link to the mentioned replay
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Sorry but these kind of bo's are just stupid to try to memorise. It helps nobody. It's much better to go something in the lines of:
Try to get as few cannons at your expand as possible, but enough to fight it's forces, that's why keeping the probe alive is essential. Be 100% sure that Bisu doesn't have this memorized, but instead is playing by what his probe sees.
Anyway, the key elements to this strat are getting the second gas earlier than usual, soon after CyberCore, keeping scouting alive, see how many drones he's getting, how many expos. This is crucial, since you'll have an idea of what his army will look like in a few minutes. That way you can't be surprised by mass lings or fast hydra or such. You see no lair tech? Search for expos and worry about hydra/lings. You see a faster lair that you're wishing? Maybe one cannon in the main mineral line won't hurt, and so on.
What if he 9pools? What if he doesn't pool at all and just expos all over the place? Are you still going to be adding cannons and getting just one zealot and one goon? Bisu has a strong feel about the game flow, and he can get minimalistic defenses in order to get his tech up as fast as possible. This can (and most of the time will) prove fatal to someone who just goes by the BO without reacting properly to his opponent.
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This build was used against 12 hatch 11 pool -> 3 hatch before gas with minimal lings? And on what map? Even if you don't generalize the build, at least state the context it was used in.
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8748 Posts
The reason why it's so vague is because of the reasons CubEdIn just listed. It's best described as following up a FE with corsair/dt as your first major investment. This is opposed to a fast +1 and speed zealot attack, to corsair/reaver, to 6+ gates zealot/goon/temp/obs power, and to goon/reaver. As odd a combo as corsair/dt is compared to the power of those alternatives, Bisu has demonstrated that it works best against the most common and most powerful zerg builds.
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United States42695 Posts
How is it not 13 nexus? I can always 13 nex without cutting probes.
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if you scout then its 14 
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On November 05 2007 20:25 Taiche wrote:Show nested quote +On November 05 2007 19:10 SuperJongMan wrote:
SS's would be very nice.
I still don't know how to FE.
... ... -_-;; Yeah, same here :D I still have issues when it comes to pylon/forge placement at nat...
I try to block the shortest path to my main so that people can't run past and attack my probes. I make the forge a bit closer to the outer side of the build so that I can fit a cannon behind it and the pylon. Basically watch how Bisu does it - his cannon is always contained so that it's harder to attack from all sides.
To the OP, as others have said, that was just one game on one map. This build is obviously very weak against any kind of fast pool or small map or close potion map. Even a map like LT makes any Nexus-first FE hard because many of the nats have wide entrances and if you have close positions with a skilled Zerg you could lose quickly. Although, it is interesting to write down the absolute timings of this one variation.
I'd also include supply meter, so that it's not just a number like 8 pylon, but eventually like 51/58 pylon or whatnot. This way you can see the logic between 2 pylons being made in a row, for example. Also maybe a timer? Like, the game time at which it occurs. But that's for really detailed stuff.
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On November 05 2007 23:36 sperY wrote:if you scout then its 14
I'm with kwark on this one. Even when I scout after 8 pylon, I can obtain 400 minerals before reaching 14 population. Perhaps it depends on how well you mine (splits, closest mineral patches) or on how many mineral patches you start with (most maps these days have 9-10 as opposed to 8).
EDIT: Actually, after considering the chronology of 8 mineral patch maps having been obsolete for a long time, I can't be sure...
Perhaps you build at 14 just for timing's sake or that extra second for mining time with all your probes?
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Share the replay
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Watching Bisu vs. Savior I can tell you he adds more gateways a lot quicker. Especially the first game. Because while he's DT sneaking and killing ovies hes getting zealot/ht ready to attack.
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Ty very much for this information. I kind of had a general idea of the Bisu build before this, but never something set down in stone. Also, if its not too much to ask. Could you add a small section on unit controlling/harassment? I found this is one of my greatest problems PvZ.
And was this rep a FPVOD? Because an FPVOD of Bisu is definetily a must-have (I was only wondering because how else would you get the exact numbers)
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On November 06 2007 04:21 xBTx wrote:
And was this rep a FPVOD? Because an FPVOD of Bisu is definetily a must-have (I was only wondering because how else would you get the exact numbers)
It was just a normal replay.
Also basically the cliff notes for Bisu's build is as follows:
14 nexus
KEEP YOUR SCOUTING PROBE ALIVE.
Take your natural gas relatively fast, basically a little after cyber is warping.
Stargate asap, citadel asap.
2nd gate before you start temp archives.
Temp archives asap.
Constant sairs.
Obviously you keep the scouting probe alive to know if hes linging, teching expoing etc. If you don't keep him alive, it's going to be a lot harder to pull this off, as it requires to skimp on cannons initially.
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As previously stated this BO is the response to a Zerg going 12 hatch. It's important to note that should the Zerg decide to go 9 pool instead, the Protoss should make a forge before he makes a nexus. Getting this info is one reason why Bisu likes to scout so early. If he sees hatch first then he goes nexus first. If he sees pool first then he goes forge first. This fork in the BO could be the difference between a standard PvZ game...and probe genocide. 
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I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build.
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Progamers memorize builds up to 100? I find that hard to believe with all the variables that can pop up in a game.
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On November 06 2007 05:10 YinYang69 wrote:
Progamers memorize builds up to 100? I find that hard to believe with all the variables that can pop up in a game.
these are guys that can play the game at 400 or even 500 APM, show that to any regular person and theyd say its hard to believe too and argue that the thing is sped up or that the game is all about spam clicking.
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thanks for the build order!
pretty precise, but maybe the timing or where he positioned some of his pylons depends on the game that savior was playign against him? if you can find another rep + maybe some SS i will love you
<3
:D
edit : can you give a link to the rep?
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the "problem" with the Bisu build is that Bisu adapts it so well considering circumstanses. Don't know if you're going to be more successfull if you follow the build as it stands here rather than going more conservative FE build...
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On November 06 2007 05:10 YinYang69 wrote:
Progamers memorize builds up to 100? I find that hard to believe with all the variables that can pop up in a game.
Well, if you do it enough you start memorizing when your stargate is up, when you get your third zealot, etc. Imagine doing the same build over and over on the same map, you'd memorize a lot of things.
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I don't look at my supply enough to memorize it them. Also it changes so fast that means you are just reguritating something for every second -_-. Playing in a rhytm is much better.
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i really don't understand.. if i make corsair and dt the z goes idra and simply kick my ass...he put 1 spore on natural and keep all the ovie there.. what is the point of going mass cors and dt at fast game?
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On November 06 2007 14:40 LuDwig- wrote:
i really don't understand.. if i make corsair and dt the z goes idra and simply kick my ass...he put 1 spore on natural and keep all the ovie there.. what is the point of going mass cors and dt at fast game?
dude. if he keeps all of his ovies at his natural, just sneak drop a couple of dts in his main and start raping. if he tries to bring his ovies to his main, just massacre them with your sairs.
also, if he only has 1 spore, then at least like 6 corsairs should be able to kill most of the ovies before you lose like 3 corsairs.
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strange, it double posted. i don't know why it did that...
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eh... where's the replay you speak of :D Or is it a vod? Also, if you 12 nexus instead of 14, which means you do have to cut probes a bit, you don't need a second pylon before it finishes, slightly more efficient.
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Info:
1: Yes, it may be too specific.
I just wanted to provide people with one of the Bisu Builds that he does that's so famous since people seem to be looking for these.
2: It's not a FPVOD, it's a replay, that's how I got the numbers.
3: For those of you looking for the specific replay, I've edited my post so the link to it is now included.
4: Taking Screenshots now for the win
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one thing i don't get- why dont zerg players start blocking their ramp with 2 drone until ling if the scouting probe is so important? Wouldn't that make things much harder for bisu to read before his sair pops out? Could pave the way for a surprise all-in build, or a fake all-in build, or a number of things... It seems like fast expanding into triple tech is extremely reliant on information, theres no other way it would be viable, right?
On November 06 2007 15:19 goldenkrnboi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2007 14:40 LuDwig- wrote:
i really don't understand.. if i make corsair and dt the z goes idra and simply kick my ass...he put 1 spore on natural and keep all the ovie there.. what is the point of going mass cors and dt at fast game? dude. if he keeps all of his ovies at his natural, just sneak drop a couple of dts in his main and start raping. if he tries to bring his ovies to his main, just massacre them with your sairs. also, if he only has 1 spore, then at least like 6 corsairs should be able to kill most of the ovies before you lose like 3 corsairs.
One spore in main and nat, put 3-4 hydras with the ovies at nat, and spread them- it'll take more than 6 to take them down without severe losses.
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Screenshots up for great justice
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Show nested quote +On November 06 2007 15:19 goldenkrnboi wrote:On November 06 2007 14:40 LuDwig- wrote:
i really don't understand.. if i make corsair and dt the z goes idra and simply kick my ass...he put 1 spore on natural and keep all the ovie there.. what is the point of going mass cors and dt at fast game? dude. if he keeps all of his ovies at his natural, just sneak drop a couple of dts in his main and start raping. if he tries to bring his ovies to his main, just massacre them with your sairs. also, if he only has 1 spore, then at least like 6 corsairs should be able to kill most of the ovies before you lose like 3 corsairs. One spore in main and nat, put 3-4 hydras with the ovies at nat, and spread them- it'll take more than 6 to take them down without severe losses.
i was saying that assuming that you wouldn't be stupid to not be constantly moving your sairs.
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Although quite specific, I like it
I still like my weirdo FE + DT drop PvZ BO better haha
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On November 06 2007 17:50 -orb- wrote:
Screenshots up for great justice
Very justice-tastic! I like them
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I love your comments at the end. If this build makes Savior leave the game I will use it religiously ^^
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On November 13 2007 13:51 strongwind wrote:
I love your comments at the end. If this build makes Savior leave the game I will use it religiously ^^
Don't be too religious, remember you always have to craft your build in response to what your enemy is doing.
GL ask for a match vs sAviOr, you're totally ready :D
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Afaik, the genuine Bisu build involves probe cutting.
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On November 14 2007 01:00 BluzMan wrote:
Afaik, the genuine Bisu build involves probe cutting.
Definitely not since I got this build from an actual replay of Bisu. GG
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
The WWI replays you mean? Bisu went different builds there than he used vs Savior at MSL finals.
Possibly hints that there isn't such thing as THE Bisu build, they are all map-specific.
EDIT: I've watched game 1 of the MSL series, there was no probe cutting, but that game relied more on Savior's crucial mistakes rather than some innovating build order. Watching game 2 this very moment, iirc, Bisu went Sair/Reaver there.
EDIT 2: Game 2 is indeed Sair/Reaver with standard build-up.
Game 3, though is stargate -> 4 gate -> sair/DT harass -> +1 speedlot timing attack and DOES involve probe halt after second corsair. Imo, the most efficient build of all three, Savior was helpless in that game.
WWI:
Game 1 Hitchhiker - 1 gate sair/DT into expo. Irrelevant.
Game 2 Blitz X - FE Sair/DT starts cutting probes after his first sair comes out to get stuff faster. Probe production completely halted after the third sair. Probe production resumed at around 80 psi after second expo is started.
Game 3 RLT - 2 gate proxy zealot rush. Irrelevant.
Dunno how to comment on that, you only listed the very early stages of the build, but imo the core of Bisu's builds is the timing of the second expo and follow-up timing attack with zealots. Saying "build probes all the way" is wrong imo.
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On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote:
I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply
Hmm that seems highly unlikely.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
That seems perfectly likely with macro-oriented build orders. If you play it 200 times, you really start getting it down, especially considering the fact that most builds have been formulated up to 30-40 supply years ago and it's wide known info.
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I like specific BOs. Obviously I dont follow them exactly, but its a fast way to get a baseline.
Like if everything goes right, I can nexus here, if he three hatches, I should send out my zealot around here...
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Yes this is a lot, but you can kinda skim it to get the general idea. I think people are missing the point. I appreciate the work and thanks.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
This thread.... fails, to put it nicely. Sorry Orb but you should stick around and observe TLnet more before making threads like these.
Now why do I say the thread fails? Because the reason Bisu's Bisu build is so successful is NOT because of the build order. It's because of his understanding of PvZ... something that one needs to experience, not memorize.
Bisu's PvZ is so good because of his ability to predict and forsee the game before it happens, and change his build according to it. For example. If Savior opened with a 9 pool, you think he would have gated before cannon? If savior went 2 hatch hydra rush, or 3 hatch mass lings with no drones, you think he would have gotten stargate after only 1 cannon? No, Bisu does not create a build order and execute the exact same thing each time, he watches his opponent carefully with his probe, and tweaks his own build accordingly.
Now I know you stated specifically at the beginning,
So here it is. Keep in mind this is just one instance, I'm sure he does it slightly differently every time depending on the enemy's actions.
Yet you state build orders up to 51 supply... which is only harming the ones learning the Bisu build, and not help.
When making threads like these, you can't just say "do this, do that". You have to give a REASON and PURPOSE to each action. WHY do you build gateway at 17? WHY do you a zealot instead of a cannon? WHY do you make a corsair at this point?
For example,
17 - Gateway at nat: You can build your gateway at this point because your scouting probe saw a 12 hatch, and not a pool-first build. Thus, you can rush your tech instead of building a couple of cannons that aren't needed this early.
24- Zealot: Your scouting probe, which should still be alive, should be watching how many lings and drones he has. Since he only has 4~6 lings chasing your probe, and all of his larva keep turning up drones, and he's gotten gas and hasn't retreated drones after the first 100, and his nat and main have plenty of drones, you can assume your base will not need additional defense. Instead, building a zealot will work as a counter attack, because his lings are still chasing your drone, thus his 2nd expansion is vulnerable to a zealot attack. And even if you missed a few more lings he created, having a zealot will work as a defensive and an offensive unit.
Obviously if Bisu's scouting probe saw the zerglings speed upgraded, and saw 4~8 more lings pop out Bisu would have built a couple of cannons instead of the zealot... or built the zealot with the cannons and cut probe or tech.
Each building built by Bisu is a decision arrived upon a carefully observed and calculated decision... not a memorized timing Bisu just uses every game. And THAT is the secret to Bisu's success.... NOT his build orders, and THAT is why this thread fails.
EDIT: One more thing. I'm not saying memorizing build orders is bad. It does help you generate a basis to work on. But to attempt to memorize bo's into 51 supply, without understanding the mechanics of it, is a very bad idea.
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This is very nice, thank you.
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On November 14 2007 14:37 Dromar wrote:
This is very nice, thank you.
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On November 14 2007 10:51 Live2Win wrote:
.. AMEN ..
And this is the reason why—ultimately—this thread delivers.
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instead of learning BO by supply count, i find it better to remember the BO by general steps. for example, when i learn a zerg BO (yea go zerg!) i DO remember the supply count for hatcheries and key techs, those say a lot about the BO and its concept, but i don't bother with how many hydras or lings or sunkens cuz it won't help much (except in low eco builds), instead, memorizing that may be u make a hydra den when lair is half way, or put down a spire and a 4th expo at the same time, or oh i have XXX amount of hatches and units, time to make a queen's nest and put down more chambers. etc.....knowing these steps allow u to stick to the BO and the concept behind it even if ur BO was disrupted by ur opponent at some point in the game, u can go right back to it if u know what u are doing and not just 31 stargate. ^^
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Live2Win:
I think you missed the point of this thread entirely.
Those steps were not meant to be phrased or written like suggestions. I was not trying to say this is what you do.
Instead, I was trying to say, this is what Bisu did in this one game! That's why I included the step for scouting the 2nd hatch.
I wasn't trying to say, "guise this is how u do t3h bisu build lol do it now"
No more like I was trying to say this is what Bisu did in a game vs sAviOr since replays of Bisu are hard to come by.
Sorry if I came off as trying to teach people. I only put [G] at the beginning of the title because nothing else fit. I'm not asking a question, I'm not asking for help, and this isn't an idea. So guide was the closest.
While it's not actually a guide, although it could be considered as a guide for the bisu build in that specific instance of what the zerg player does.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Keke. No need for guide since the build is very simple and fluent exactly before the point you end it at. Saying "expand as fast as possible, build core as fast as possible, get a stargate, a goon and a citadel as soon as core finishes in that order" then applying it to zerg's actions (12 hatch, no lings, thus 14 nexus and core before zealot with 1 cannon) results in the same build. The only thing that differs from "fluent" is the slightly later upgrade timing and slightly earlier second assimilator.
This is of course still helpful because some people still don't know the build order for generic FE, but the sad thing is that the BO vs 12 hatch is the easiest.
I'd love someone writing down the BO for FE as a response to 9 pool, overpool and 12 pool respectively. There are actually several branches, while I tend to do it with probe cutting, there might be other ways.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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On November 05 2007 19:31 SoMuchBetter wrote:
this is way too specific lol
you should try to break it down into a way that one can actually follow, rather than expecting people to memorise 50 different points at which they should build things.
ex)
you fast expand and tech quickly stargate and templars. add gas to your natural very early as well then begin corsair pump. more corsairs if your opponent opens muta, less if den. fly around killing things with your sairs and get a dt out and try to kill things with that
actually no buddy u need exact for perfection, why do you think koreans bo is better? cus they play by psi early game its obvious..
watch those how to videos with that london voice he talks about it according to psi on each video.
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In many game PvZ zerg starts with 9 pool so toss can't make a 14 nexus . Actualy Bisu build is very hard to be make
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Nice read.
Sinse you are not, as you say, trying to teach anyone anything, but rather inform about exactly what "the bisu build" could look like: maybe the thread would be better of in the broodwar forum?
Also the problems with finding a tag could be taken as a sign that you're in the wrong forum.
Anyway, I enjoyed. I'll go and rewatch some bisu FPVods now!
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No I don't think this would fit in the Brood War forum rather than the strategy forum.
The thread is clearly about a very specific protoss strategy of play (aka build order) versus zerg.
It's not like general discussion of the game, it's very specifically strategy.
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building order is okay up to maybe stargate, then it really depends...
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On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote:
I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build.
Thats funny, since a study shows (XellOs 2004), ProGamers don't memorize food or money, they play completly on instinct and feeling, as typing is to a typist. So either the person you read was an amateur trying to go pro, in which he would need to memorize things, or your just completly pulling this out of your ass.
Seeing how you said Pro, I'm assuming your lying.
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On November 15 2007 16:47 lastshadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote:
I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build. Thats funny, since a study shows (XellOs 2004), ProGamers don't memorize food or money, they play completly on instinct and feeling, as typing is to a typist. So either the person you read was an amateur trying to go pro, in which he would need to memorize things, or your just completly pulling this out of your ass. Seeing how you said Pro, I'm assuming your lying.
o_O
I seriously doubt that they learn up to 100 supply BO too. But wtf with lies he may have read it he didn't say it is official source or anything. -_-
I feel like it's like people thinking that chess players study each possibility 10/12/15 strokes in advance.
I am quite a noob but apart from 5 first minutes were you could be facing cheese and need to execute everything the fastest way possible, adapting to the other strat >> following anything strictly.
I liked the topic anyway, still interesting.
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On November 06 2007 05:10 YinYang69 wrote:
Progamers memorize builds up to 100? I find that hard to believe with all the variables that can pop up in a game.
up to 100 is too much. but the way bisu makes his final moves is incredible.
to say the least it requires A LOT of practice to know when and especifically how to do it(in the right moment).
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On November 15 2007 16:47 lastshadow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2007 05:03 himurakenshin wrote:
I read that most progamers memorize builds into almost 100 supply, so I think it is great that he wrote down the build like this. Of course you should have an understanding of what to do in case your build gets messed up, or you have to adjust your build based on your opponent's build. Thats funny, since a study shows (XellOs 2004), ProGamers don't memorize food or money, they play completly on instinct and feeling, as typing is to a typist. So either the person you read was an amateur trying to go pro, in which he would need to memorize things, or your just completly pulling this out of your ass. Seeing how you said Pro, I'm assuming your lying.
Actually that "study" said that progamers use the part of the brain that handles instincts more than the "reasoning" part. You decided to draw the conclusion that they lie COMPLETELY on instict and feeling.
No, they don't. Proof? Nada, Hwasin, Midas, any many others: players who just choked at one point or another. Nada was completely unable to adapt to Savior's style for example. I remember the matches on Luna where Nada was running around like an idiot with his m&m force unable to kill any of the expansions that savior had (mains). He was just too used to his style and offensive lurkers that Savior just blew him away. Same goes for Midas, choke artist. Or Hwasin's extremely straight forward, very slightly flexible play style. Yes, it works, but it's way more practice than instinct. Players like Boxer, Ra, Reach, Bisu, Savior and many many others have a creative side to them that you HAVE to turn over to instincts. But saying that they rely completely on that is stupid. Then what the hell is all the training for?
You just like to boss people around don't you? The guy said he 'read somewhere', you're saying he pulled it out of his ass. I remember an article about oov where someone was saying that he has the 2 expo, fast limit strategy planned down to the smallest detail. (The one with no pushes, just minor vulture harass until he reaches limit (somewhere around 12-13 minutes into the game) and then pushes out tornado style).
Either way, I think you're acting like you're above everyone else here, that's why you get flamed a lot. Just try not to insult people with your posts please.
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I like it, good job. Supported with pictures, it looks almost like a scientific research
Even though some argue that the exact-case is vague, you may find reasoning behind.
For example when you play, this reminds you at some point in the game that bisu was making cannon... so you might do it as well saving yourself from early ling defeat for example.
Exact timing knowledge is very important in PvZ since if your probe dies, you are out of opponent info until sair, or even further.
Imo scouting probe alive keeping is still a gamble, you may never tell if you succeed, good ling control and it is over...
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so if the first base you scout isn't zergs should you still go ahead with nexus first or should you forge first for 9pool?
and if you do scout zerg first and he didn't FE should you go forge first?
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Forge first if you expect some lings, and prepare to use your probes in defense.
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On December 07 2007 16:48 caution.slip wrote:
so if the first base you scout isn't zergs should you still go ahead with nexus first or should you forge first for 9pool?
and if you do scout zerg first and he didn't FE should you go forge first?
If you don't scout the Zerg out on the first try you should opt for the Forge. At this point usually it's safer to make the Forge first and put up a Cannon before expanding because of the possibility of a 9 Pool.
If you scout first you see what's he's going for; if you see a Spawning Pool in its 400s or so then build a Forge. If he makes a Hatchery at his natural you build the Nexus right after your first Pylon.
edit: Building Nexus first if you don't scout him first is pretty gutsy but doable if the distance between bases is large.
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EPT
Bisu made famous that involves an early stargate and templar archives.
sAviOr replay (courtesy of Taiche and his wonderful thread) in which ![[image loading]](http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/2760/scscrnshot110607025035rc0.jpg)
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