EPTZvT guy goes mech
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ItchReliever
2489 Posts
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TeRRan`UseR
Canada692 Posts
Harassing with drops is the most important thing to do I think. Gol + tank is VERY gas heavy and the less gasses he has the better. Plague is also your friend; lots and lots of plague. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
Otherwise you can try hydra-ling against pure goliaths but the micro is a bit harder. Late game, either hydras with swarm, or ultra-ling. (again, hydras are harder to micro well) | ||
alffla
Hong Kong20321 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=4518 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41421 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=40291 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=9980 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=53133 good luck | ||
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Pads
England3228 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
If he is going mines into expansion think about 2hat muta and start expanding around the map or going straight to hydra with no lair and push in with range first + overlord clearing mines. Try to end it early or at least put enough pressure to keep him honest so that you can get a lot of econ going for the inevitable defiler/hydra/ling you will want to get to. in the end game I tend to get every tech(triple evo later than normal instead of starting with 1/1 melee before hive goes up or something).. Its important to get drop for mobility in a timely manner and keep your attack upgrades up. A good mech player with econ backing him can at least push back defilers for a while with mines+tanks. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
the first and most important thing to note is that playing vs mech is completely different than playing against MnM. Just as you consider ZvZ different from ZvP, its absolutely critical you don't follow some of the other standard "vsT" mindsets. bad mindsets include 1) relying on hive tech 2) relying on lurkers in mid game 3) protecting expansions the way you would vs mnm. that said, allow me to actually describe what the hell you should be doing. **disclaimer** - i always focus on long term solid effective strategies. i will NEVER say something like "try to get drop really fast after 3 bases and just drop him until GG" or something. So, keep in mind, although there are some nice spots to enter all-in mode, long term gameplay is best against mech **end disclaimer** Expanding: First, note that the terran player has significantly decreased mobility and ability to pressure you in the early-mid game stages. MnM can actually deal a ton of damage vs anything, so you always have to be wary of tossing down a hatch w/o lurkers or muta/ling nearby. However, terran pretty much only has vultures to prevent you from expanding in the early and midgame stages. Moreover, late game, terran can pretty much only attack you with a direct, slow moving push (gols+tanks, vults for support too or so). So, feel free to expand WAY more than you would vs mnm. Terran simply cannot stop you from doing so. Moreover, when you get those new expansions, focus on getting minerals instead of gas. remember, gas is good vs mnm, but not so much vs mech (onto next section!) Overall Unit Makeup: vs MnM, the zerg force relies largely on finesse: cutely positioning lurker+ling flanks, sexy defiler control, that "oh so just right" mutalisk snipe etc. However, mech is slow and has alot of hit points and won't crumble to some "sexy control". You should be focussing on just ALOT of STUFF. Keep it low tech. Getting lots of hydra+ling w/ plenty of hatcheries (remember you CAN expand alot) is by far the most effective way to deal w/ all those vultures+gols+tanks. Definitely don't get ultras late game. Tanks deal a fuckton of damage, so why let those tanks maximize their utility? With all the extra gas you have though (remember, you are focussing on expanding and making a heavy mineral type army) you can focus on getting a ton of guardians (or even mutalisks) with all your excess gas. Tossing in a bunch of mutalisks if you have the opportunity can severely fuck w/ terran's unit composition. Gameflow: i'm going to assume you are aware he's meching fairly early on. you should be scouting correctly to see this. early game, focus on clogging your choke (build a den at your front to make sure vultures can't get by). THREE HATCH FOR GODS SAKE. do NOT do anything cute w/ 2 hatch or you'll get absolutely smashed by someone who knows what he's doing. your choice is now to get hydralisks or mutalisks. once you get those mutalisks or hydralisks, your goal is to start expanding a ton. mech will tend to REACT more to your unit combinations than FORCE you to make certain units. So, just fuck w/ your opponent alot. expand a bunch w/ hydras, and if he seems to be making too many tanks w/o vultures, then start churning out some zerglings and extra hatcheries. if he's trying to expand a bunch himself w/ tanks, get a ton of mutalisks. if he's making too many goliaths make more ground etc etc etc. eventually, your terran opponent will feel like he has JUST barely enough to defend himself at the current game state, but you will soon overtake him w/ all those expansions you were able to take in the meantime. Again, remember that there is no cute, finesseful, effective way to deal w/ mech. You are simply going to focus on HAVING MORE STUFF. so many zerg users have the mindset that, vs terran, you should be able to get 12 of the "correct units" to hold off any type of army possible. while this is true vs mnm (defiler+lurker eh?), mech simply operates too differently. At the same time, note mech's shortcomings and strenghts. Mech sucks at being mobile, doing strong harassment type attacks (dropships will always be better than vulture raids), and at forcing zerg to make a certain type of unit (mech MUST react more, ie making more tanks vs ground or gols vs air). However, mech IS very strong at taking expansions, being defensive, and producing a really strong "one big attack win" type army. So, let him expand a ton, and harass him like you would a protoss late game, or wait until you have a GREAT seige-tank busting type unit (guardians! definitely NOT defilers. if you've experienced alot of success w/ defilers against a mech player, that player simply sucks and the defilers had little impact on the game). i've been rambling a WHOLE bunch, and i'm not going to re-read what i wrote. so, i hope this was very useful. cliff notes: just expand and stay low tech! lots of hatcheries, lots of mid-tier units! (hydra/ling/muta ftw) | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
another alternative that's very straightforward and easy to explain get mutalisks and then EXPAND EXPAND EXPAND A FUCKTON and get more mutas and more mutas. you literally only have to make mutas+sunken colonies and counter attack the terran if he ever tries to leave his base only confront his army if you have sunken colony support. for reference, watch boxer vs savior on monty hall. HOWEVER, don't be a fucking idiot like savior and fight boxer's gollies w/o sunkens. (and if there are NO sunkens, just go kill all of terran's expansions happily. remember, you are expanding a fuckton. you can afford to lose 2-3 of em) | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7222 Posts
Muta opening has a lot of advantages over hydra, the most important of which is that it forces T to make goliaths much faster than he would like. Because he has to worry about your harass, he has to use the factories to make goli instead of vultures which are the only harassment tool mech has in the early/midgame making it that much easier for you to take extra bases. Once your eco booms almost any combo of ling/hydra/muta en masse can win the game. A key change from typical ZvT openings is that you stay on lair much longer than normal because the hive tech units defiler and ultralisk are much worse against metal than they are vs. mm. Defiler's power vs. metal is more like ZvP it's kind of nice to have but not required. By the time you can get ultras a metal terran usually has a lot of tanks and even 6 armor is nothing. Since you are staying at lair level longer and have a lot of economy from unmolested expansions you can use some spare resources to get upgrades to match the terran. This is especially important for the mass of mutas you're making. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
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ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
Anyways, as I said, reading any mech thread will answer this for you. MutaLing with +1 Carapace on both and a very expansive midgame. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Otherwise speaking, play for the long term. Mech is strong, but it's slow to get and slow to manuver (well, except vultures, but you can deal with them if you throw down enough sunkens). You simply need to establish yourself to the point where he can't rebuild as quick and he's spreading himself thin trying to deal with your many bases. The last thing you want is to wind up in a direct face-off with a 200/200 blob of 3-3 metal. Chill: As soon as Day answered, it was over. T_T GI: Defilers are still okay, but tank splash damage as well as spider mines will still screw you over if you try to use defilers to ram mass ground down his throat, meanwhile you're eating up gas on not only the defilers, but the main ground army which basically MUST include gas eating units, otherwise darkswarm doesn't really have a purpose. Defilers are still good, but only plague is useful IMO, so use them a bit more sparingly. DS won't do shit for ling unless he's got no vults, it can help for hydras, but if he manages to get too many tanks (and unless he's crazy/stupid/emo, he WILL make tanks in response to hydras), even then... and it STILL will not make ling/lurk or ling/ultra a worthwhile expenditure. Defilers become a purely supporting unit rather than a crutch as they are in the styles of fast hive Zerg players and you use them more on a case-by-case basis rather than at every opportunity. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
Which might be true though it is situational. If you try to go straight hydras, it will probably not work well vs mines/tanks (ive beaten a lot of zergs who tries to go hydra first). I think the main opening is the muta/lings. And you can safely make mass mutalisk for a good time (unless he gets valkyries and you fail to scourge) them. Mutas are good to prevent terran from leaving base. Because normally a terran who went one base mech, usually wont have that many goliaths by the time your mutas are out. And he will have spend heavily on turrets, upgrades, or air units. Goliaths do half damage vs mutas, and are clumsy walkers. They will start fighting more effectively once charbon buster is researched and + 1 weapon, plus they must have a large number of goliaths (takes a bit of time), or has valkyries/vessel (hard on the gas from 1 base). In either cases it all takes a while to outnumber a large mutalisk force. This will allow you to expand safely. If you can prevent the terran from expanding while you got a 3rd gas, I think u can win with mutalisks alone (but again situational) Watch: Iloveoov vs Savior (Rush Hour III) - Cant find video T.T Boxer vs Savior (MontyHall) - + Show Spoiler + Boxer wins that one though Boxer vs Yellow (Jungle Story) - - part 1 - Part 2 | ||
thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
 Anyyways I still think plagues are useful useful useful. | ||
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Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
Try to harass or so.. build 2 evos and hydra den, upgrade 1-1 on hydras and start massing them as well! Important: upgrade ol speed if he makes mines and so that you can see most of the map and make really good flank-attacks once he decides to move out with his entire force! He will always make 1 attempt to attack and win once his exp is up, his facts are up and he is starting to macro like a bitch. If you succeed in stopping his attack, you should be fine, just expand more and hive should be on its way (so should the 2-2 hyd).. After this just keep massing ^_^; The most important thing though, is your mutas in the beginning.. dont stop producing them... they pwn gols and no terran will have enough gas to make vessel that early (at least not if he makes some tank, siege mode upgrade+gol range, plus, most ppl wanna upgrade their units to 1-1 coz that is really important when you mech!). Just remember to upgrade all your units you are using vs mech, you dont wanna stand in lategame with 1-1 when he has 3-3 or 2-2, coz then you are fucked up big time whether you tons of units or not.. Grade on all units!^^! gogo Also, if you feel like you have the game you can start to make weird units such as queens and shit:p | ||
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
some ppl suggested lurkers..........let me tell u lurkers are no good against mech, don't waste resources on them. plague can be very valuable in late game. its not possible for terran to repair too many tech units, and unlike the protoss who still have their shield, mech units drop to 1 hp = 1 hit kill.^^ the reason people say defilers are no good is because u can't get in siege range to plague freely, and swarm is useless indeed.......... but if terran wants to attack he has to unsiege and move sometime, u plague him when he's on the move, and don't worry about losing precious defilers, even one good plague on the terran will recover u the cost of the defiler. imagine a mech blob with 2-3 plagues on it........well, lol to his push. | ||
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red.venom
United States4651 Posts
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32622 Here is me vs Slog in a fairly recent game doing this vs mech. Lurkers are also ownage under swarm even vs mech. The idea is you dont even have to get many lurkers down.. 2-3 deep in tanks/gols is enough to force T to do a ton of work to unsiege and pull all back. Hmm and although defilers are not particularly amazing vs mech, their ability to help defend is valuable as mech with the right tank numbers can sometimes just pound the shit out of your units. Plague on defense is also great and because vs mech games can so often be mass money games I think its just a good idea to get defilers in them regardless. Just keep 2-3 at key points on the map to do their thing. Even 2-3 good plagues in a game and a few swarms should be worth the 800-ish gas and few minerals. They are also great to add in drops. : d | ||
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Tangsta
Australia68 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On December 04 2007 21:11 Tangsta wrote: sorry haven't read everything, but what if the T starts massing vessels? Vessels cost 225 vespene and most Terran players won't dare making Vessels because it brings their Tank + Goliath count wayyyyy down -_- If he's massing Vessels his army is probably not there; kill him quickly. | ||
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Zergraptor
Canada54 Posts
One way of going at it would be if he produces many goliath you could counter with hydralisks and If he produces many tanks, you could counter with mutalisks. Find an opening you are comfortable using and try to mix up your techs if what your doing does not work and watch the terran's game play carefully, maybe find some weaknesses in the terran's style. It would take forever to name a counter to everything, and so much of it would be useless to say because everyone plays so different. There is usually a way to come out ahead has long as you build correctly, so keep trying. Good luck! | ||
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Diggity
United States806 Posts
I mentioned neo-terran mech v zerg in another post (anticipating a shift in pro-league play towards mech on larger maps). A few players attempted this shift following shudders win over ggplay however they ultimate came up short. You might examine these games for some insight, specifically 910 v raid (and I think luxury as well but I don't recall) http://teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/7904_910_vs_raid I cant actually watch vods from the office so let me know if that is in fact correct. I believe lomo and hery also attempted to copy the mech build but also failed. | ||
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montblanc
United States7 Posts
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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StRyKeR
United States1739 Posts
http://www.battlereports.com/downloadreplay.php3/32712_zvt MECh.rep?replaynum=32712 | ||
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Sarja
Sweden5 Posts
But eh, yeah, anyways, been a while since I've been playing BW so .. Yeah. :| | ||
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FieryBalrog
United States1381 Posts
On December 05 2007 22:49 Sarja wrote: Why shouldn't you go ultra/ling? :O As the humble noob I believe I am, the combo seems imba. Ultra tanks while ling go scratchy scratchy. But eh, yeah, anyways, been a while since I've been playing BW so .. Yeah. :| I suspect because mass tanks and spider mines really kick the crap outta ultra/ling. Ultras go down pretty fast vs massed 70 damage tanks and the splash owns the lings. And of course the mines, they can really totally rape your ground force. Goliaths also do quite well against lings. | ||
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Brutalisk
794 Posts
I had mixed success with that (as usual). But recent pro games have made me doubt if there's really a definite answer to T metal. I mean, Savior went mass muta vs. Boxer on Monty Hall, then ultra/ling vs. Flash on Baekmagoji or how the map is called. GGPlay used it in one game on Katrina too. I've also seen mass hydra with a few lurkers being used in a pro ZvT on Monty Hall SE. That leaves me wondering if there's really one perfect unit combination against T metal. All these things have strengths and weaknesses. Maybe they're all viable against T mech, it just depends on the situation which one you should choose. For example, if T gets vessels very early, it's probably a bad idea to go muta heavy, so get hydra instead. If he doesn't have many tanks in late game, you could try ultra/ling. If he has many tanks and mines, stop using ultra/ling. And so on... defilers are always good, of course. Not sure though, and my own experience vs. T metal is very limited. Just something to think about. There has to be a reason why the pros don't always use muta/ling which is supposed to be the "standard" vs. T metal. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On December 06 2007 01:36 Brutalisk wrote: But recent pro games have made me doubt if there's really a definite answer to T metal. I mean, Savior went mass muta vs. Boxer on Monty Hall, then ultra/ling vs. Flash on Baekmagoji or how the map is called. GGPlay used it in one game on Katrina too. I've also seen mass hydra with a few lurkers being used in a pro ZvT on Monty Hall SE. These are map-specific problems. Monty Hall is a strange map that allows many expansions for Terran while allowing little room for Zerg maneuvering. Metal isn't unbeatable here, but certainly stronger than on other "standard" maps. Baekmagoji is just shit. Terran cannot lose there. Flash might as well have gone Ghosts from 27 Barracks, because with the amount of minerals in a two-screen width, Terran cannot lose. Have you seen many metal games on standard maps (That wasn't sarcastic, I don't want many pro games)? | ||
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dybydx
Canada1764 Posts
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
Just another question. How do you fight a Terran Mech that fights you like a P except he has SV or Valks? He has tanks and mines and slowly pushing towards you. He has Valks to kill your Overlord so that you can't kill mines. | ||
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