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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
Lately I lost a few ZvT games on LT (sorry, no replays available, for I am at work) to early wraiths - I was surprised by them. My problem is I lose my scout in his base before I see terran going port, T blocks his ramp so I do not get anouther ling/drone through, and I do not want to sacrifice an OL (no speed upgrade!) to see T's tech. Perhaps my own tech (den, spire) was late (securing natural)? Suggestions welcome. | ||
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wXs.Havok
Argentina529 Posts
Early wraith is strong, so you might need to quickly switch to hydras or evo. Im a 3 hatch into spire. Sometimes wraiths arrive whne my spire is half done, some other times when its almost done. Its situational. I might wait for scourges and thats it. Since im confident with mutas i dont fell bad if i lose some seconds before attacking with mutas. Early wraiths is less units for him. | ||
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
with your initial drone scout, which should make it into the T's base for sure, there are 3 things i generally look for: a) the timing of his barracks. you'll develop a feel for what standard barracks timing is, and if you see one that's blatantly early, you can pretty much assume he's going to rush you, so get ready to pull those drones. b) the number of barracks. 2 is pretty standard, whereas 1 generally signifies an FE or some kind of tech strategy. if i see a terran building only 1 rax, sometimes i steal his gas so as to force a fast expand. a lot of nasty things can come out of a tech build, (acad rush, tank rush, vulture rush, proxy fact, fast wraith, fast drop) so sometimes it can help to just take his gas and eliminate the unknown variable. c) whether he takes his gas or not. if you see him take his gas quickly, you know off the bat that something tricky is coming your way and you can prepare for it. your ling scouts will also give you an idea of what he is doing if your drone scout didn't relay proper info back to HQ. place one of your initial zerglings behind his nat minerals to check if he is fast expanding, and use another one or two to run up his ramp and check his marine count. if he has a high marine count, it is likely that your zergling friends will die. however, you now can rest assured that he is not going to be doing some surprise vulture rush or super fast wraith. if he has a low marine count, then be wary. a) watch your sunken timing b) be ready to block your ramp with your nat drones if he tries to run vultures by c) be very careful of the dark corners of your base because he's sacrificing unit count for crazy tech, 2 hatch muta builds work pretty well. now, if you get the worst case scenario and really do get surprised by wraith, run hurt drones back and forth while your spire/den finishes and try to lose as little as possible, and most importantly, be mindful of the transition to fast droppp! if a group of m&m lands in your base after you chase off that pesky wraith, you are pretty fucked. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On September 27 2007 21:29 Metaspace wrote: Hi there - beware, noob post (and no replay). Lately I lost a few ZvT games on LT (sorry, no replays available, for I am at work) to early wraiths - I was surprised by them. My problem is I lose my scout in his base before I see terran going port, T blocks his ramp so I do not get anouther ling/drone through, and I do not want to sacrifice an OL (no speed upgrade!) to see T's tech. Perhaps my own tech (den, spire) was late (securing natural)? Suggestions welcome. Well if you scout him making a Starport + Control Tower but no Science Facility, then obviously you should be expecting either: a) Early Dropships to annoy you  b) Cloaked Wraiths to annoy you Either way, getting Hydralisks is the first thing you should go for, and then Spire + Scourge to deter Dropships, etc. Just a stupid noobie question: If T decides to go early Wraith/Dropship should I just go for Lurkling after I deter his drop? Or just go for Mutaling or something? | ||
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25977 Posts
On September 27 2007 21:29 Metaspace wrote: Hi there - beware, noob post (and no replay). Lately I lost a few ZvT games on LT (sorry, no replays available, for I am at work) to early wraiths - I was surprised by them. My problem is I lose my scout in his base before I see terran going port, T blocks his ramp so I do not get anouther ling/drone through, and I do not want to sacrifice an OL (no speed upgrade!) to see T's tech. Perhaps my own tech (den, spire) was late (securing natural)? Suggestions welcome. More annoying Chill trying to mould the strategy forum. This is an ideal OP for this kind of thread. It's concise and to the point. First, he let's you know his skill level so you aren't giving him advice that won't apply. Then he quickly introduces the problem. Finally, he takes a stab at answering the question himself. As you will see in the new guidelines (soon), this is pretty much the exact formula we want these kind of posts to follow. | ||
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
On September 27 2007 22:58 Chill wrote: More annoying Chill trying to mould the strategy forum. This is an ideal OP for this kind of thread. It's concise and to the point. First, he let's you know his skill level so you aren't giving him advice that won't apply. Then he quickly introduces the problem. Finally, he takes a stab at answering the question himself. As you will see in the new guidelines (soon), this is pretty much the exact formula we want these kind of posts to follow. Hooray for Chill! Why in the world did you say that first sentence in third person -_-;;; | ||
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yubee
United States3826 Posts
On September 27 2007 22:53 Equinox_kr wrote: if the Terran goes fast starport, his transition to normal play means he's going to have higher tech but very reduced unit count. his vessel will come out faster than normal, so if you try to muta harass like normal, it won't last very long (irradiate). my response would be to do what damage you can with your initial mutas and save the rest to take care of any raiding parties he sends out, that way you can take expansions safely since a full pushout is going to be significantly delayed, and you will have a much stronger economy than he will.Well if you scout him making a Starport + Control Tower but no Science Facility, then obviously you should be expecting either: a) Early Dropships to annoy you b) Cloaked Wraiths to annoy you Either way, getting Hydralisks is the first thing you should go for, and then Spire + Scourge to deter Dropships, etc. Just a stupid noobie question: If T decides to go early Wraith/Dropship should I just go for Lurkling after I deter his drop? Or just go for Mutaling or something? as for which units to power, check what his production facilities look like while you're muta harrassing. if you see a lot of raxes, hydralurk is the obvious transition. if you see 2 fact instead, get hive and lurkling with swarm. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28621 Posts
while I kind of agree that 2 hatch muta is a good anti-tech build, I do not at all think it's the ideal 2 port wraith counter. it's more like ideal against 1 wraith then drop builds. the ideal anti 2 stargate wraith build is building 1 spore in both main and nat, powering as long as possible and then going for a 3 hatch hydra lurker drop with ensnare rush thing. my timing was so godly for this years ago cause playing random, I got to face 2 starport wraith like 25% of my zvt games now i dunno how to time it anymore but i strongly believe that against 2 starport, getting ensnare, fast drop and mass hydra with a few lurkers is ultimate counter. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
Also thank you Chill for honouring the way I posted as such :-) (Spontaneous idea for posting guidlines title: "Zen and the art of posting strategy issues" *g*) | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On September 27 2007 22:09 yubee wrote: now, if you get the worst case scenario and really do get surprised by wraith, run hurt drones back and forth while your spire/den finishes and try to lose as little as possible, and most importantly, be mindful of the transition to fast droppp! if a group of m&m lands in your base after you chase off that pesky wraith, you are pretty fucked. Fucked, you named it...,the one time I got surprised and somehow managed to fend of the wraiths....I then put up quite a number of spores and made a bunch of mutas (no lings), just to be pulverized by about two groups of m&m dropped in my main :-) | ||
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ZerG~LegenD
Sweden1179 Posts
On September 27 2007 21:29 Metaspace wrote: and I do not want to sacrifice an OL (no speed upgrade!) to see T's tech.. That's like saying "I don't want to kill or in any way 'hurt' my opponent" and then asking "How do I win the game". Sacrefice that damn ol or lose the game, that's it. If you're going to guess what he's doing you'll be fooled far more oftenly than you'll make the right choice. Also, I think daze is horribly wrong. Wraiths will arrive before the spire is done, even when quick teching. Then they'll proceed with killing a few ols, deleying the hatching of any anti-air defense. Once your muta scourge is succefully out the terran will have researched cloak (preventing you harassing him) and have a good pump/an expo running. Of course a 'straight to air rush' might work if the terran for some strange reason aren't teching at full speed, like if he can't wall, but I don't see anyone trying that without beeing very very deceivious. Better sacrefice the ol and go 3 hatch drones/hyds-->Lurk+scourge if it turns out he's wraithing. Consider the idé of hitting his wall with some lings at the same time as you move in the ol, just in case it dies before anything is revealed. You'll need ol speed anyway (detection), so getting drop can be a good idéa. Spores is always the way to go if you're catched off-gaurd. Spores don't require supply and therefore can't be deleyed, which is why they're best. | ||
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kewlsunman
United States131 Posts
In which case, all you have to go on is the knowledge that he's not fast-expanding and so he's either fast-teching to wraiths/dropships, tanks, or acad. So as Daze said, in the situation that you don't know what the T's doing, and you want to play it safe, you can go 2-hatch muta as a general all-purpose counter to T fast-tech/non-FE. With double gas you're going to be able to pump significantly more mutas than he'll have wraiths, and (I'm not sure of the exact timing) but I think you will have the mutas soon enough that he won't be able to do that much damage and in the end you should be slightly if not a decent ways ahead. However, I think if you are at cross positions and he can't reinforce/repair so easily, it can also be fairly safe to go 3-hatch. The advantage here is that you'll have an incredible economy while he's going to be trying to play catch-up off of 1-base fast tech. That means you can sacrifice the minerals to drop a spore at both min-lines while you wait for your spire to morph in, knowing that he can't do much damage and most likely won't be able to set you back far enough to get him back into the game. In my opinion, the counters to fast wraiths are numerous and simple, and really if you're losing to the build it's probably just because your opponent is significantly better than you. | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On September 28 2007 00:27 ZerG~LegenD wrote: That's like saying "I don't want to kill or in any way 'hurt' my opponent" and then asking "How do I win the game". Sacrefice that damn ol or lose the game, that's it. If you're going to guess what he's doing you'll be fooled far more oftenly than you'll make the right choice. I was a bit unclear. I meant I did not want to sacrifice an OL early (i.e. before natural running)...but after some things others pointed out, I seem to power to much when I should have realized something is fishy (only one Baracks, few units, early gas..) I think kewlsunman also made a good point! | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
you could face fast tank rush, and you only need to snipe the tank with hydras while making mass lings to kill all the rines. if you face wraiths, you can just tech normally and you'll have very strong eco so you can deny his expand with your overwhelming numbers | ||
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decafchicken
United States20008 Posts
I prefer to leave a few hydras unmorphed (i like to open lurks) and use them to chase off wraith. If he's persistant with the wraiths, i'll usually switch to full on hydralurk. Since he went wraith he spent gas on them instead of tanks, so it wont be much of a problem for the time being. It also means he'll already be well on his way to vessels, which hydras are excellent at killing. You can eiether take map or tech to defilers, or some happy combination of the two. Attack when you get defilers if you cant take him w/ your initial hydralurk. If the douche bag did go tank heavy, stop w/ hydra and go ultra if you have the econ. This post felt more like a bunch of thoughts that run through my head when i see wraiths instead of actual help, but yea  | ||
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Chodorkovskiy
Israel459 Posts
I actually tried this a few times. Seems pretty fun, but the other guy just sucks it up and steamrolls me with expos. I can't even drop freely, because now he has AA everywhere.  Okay, I'm exaggerating. I did get a bunch of Overlords, Drones and even Scourge, with cloaking. But is it worth it? Edit: and just to get the strategic juices flowing... This is what a Zerg could do when faced with a Wraith. It may come at the expense of tanks, SCVs and expos, but... beware my uber micro!  | ||
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sprawlers
Norway439 Posts
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w3jjjj
United States760 Posts
in most cases 3 hatch works fine, and u don't need to sacrifice an ol, u just need to be prepared to defend everything, good news its not very hard. when i open a 3 hatch build and noticed terran going gas early, i put down a creep colony at 18 supply, have lings check on fast academy units near his choke, it also protects against the 1 vulture that might precede other tech units. lair at 100 gas, ling speed with the next 100, den with the next 50, and make 1 hydra per mineral line when den finishes to defend fast wraith. while spire is going up, u should have 2 group of lings protecting ur base from dropships (follow the dropship with lings under so he can't unload without getting killed), when mutas are out u'll be safe. u need to understand the terran's objective, fast tech is not an all-in rush, because terran can transition easily with cloaked wraith while taking the natural and pump marines like they normally do. a fast tech terran does not assume he can kill u immediately, his build is meant to slow u down a bit by forcing u to defend while he gets the macro going first. compared to normal 3 hatch build, if u have to defend fast tech, u'll have 8 less drones before muta production, but good thing a tech terran doesn't have that much of an econ either so u are fine. only thing annoying is u can't expo before mutas since u lack the cash and ur priority is on mutas. u also need to understand the downside of tech terran, what changes the game dynamic a bit is the gas factor. if terran goes for the clocked wraith transition (i think that's the only way to take his natural fast) then he is severely limited on gas, and what is not in his unit combo is tanks. what i usually do is take my third gas with mutas and whore drones to get the econ back up and go for a transition to hydra/lurker. personally i find SK terran to be the most logical follow up of teching, and tank strategies will delay his push by quite a bit, and that's never a good thing for terran. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28621 Posts
also kewlsunman what you do is, have your zerglings in front of his base when you run in with overlord if he sends every marine he has to kill the overlord, lings run in. if he only sends a couple, overlord survives long enough. if he has enough rines to both stop lings and overlord, this means he didn't go super fast wraith and you don't need to worry about it and can play pretty normally. if he sends away all rines cept 2 and puts scvs there to help, this means he worries so much about you finding out what he's doing, that he is doing a 2 starport wraith build order. if you, as the zerg is smart with unit movement to scout, you'll figure out what he is doing 95%+ of the time, regardless of the terran trying to hide it, as long as you actually try. (for example say, if you are zerg at 12 and he is terran at 9, almost every terran fast teching builds his tech buildings next to his gas, thus you should scout with the overlord that was hovering above his natural, through moving it as far to the left as possible and just going straight downward as this lets you notice what he's up to. (it's not in view of his wallin / rines on cliff then.) ) if he's at 6, you move the overlord above his natural as far to the bottom as possible, then move left. (first you may try to sneak a peak with the other lord to determine whether he actually did hide ports or not, but go back before it's possible for rines to kill it. ) it's _always_ possible to scout with zerg. the only problem you might have is if you only see 1 starport, go slightly too slow muta without spore and face 2 starport wraith (muta is the ideal counter for tank drop and rine drop, but not 2 starport), or if you don't scout at all and end up running into a fast tank drop or 1 wraith followed by rine drop. | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
Another 90% indicator is terran walling in general. if he does this I always expect some kind of fast vulture / wraith shit. Very rarely will a terran walll and play a normal 2-3 rax MnM or FE build. Check your base and surrounding areas for proxy. Terrans usually let their SCV run around your base until you kill it with lings. if it all the sudden runs away/vanishes, follow it with a drone (if you don't have ling yet) or check around for stuff. PS- On temple it is easy to wall 9 spot so always send your scout drone there first regardless of where you are on the map. Sniping his gas can be all you need to fuck his strat over. As far as handling it when they do have wraiths already. Mutas/scoruge are usually too slow build, and they don't come fast enough rate to overwhlem the wraiths in the air. Not to mention they are more evenly matched than hydras vs wraiths. Also If you get air they tend to use cloak and snipe overlords much easier because muta DPS isn't fast enough then proceed to rape your scourge and mutas. Spores need to be crucially placed near gas/minerals/drones and overlords around them. I usually end up with at least 2-4 on a tpyical FE zerg build. (since you can most likely skip sunkens) Play it like you would against reaver/sair build. Defensive overlord speed, mass hydras with 1-1 ups etc. But don't forget that terrans often use this build just to secure an advantage and meanwhile harassing you they amass a huge MnM army and steamroll you. So get some lurkers. I have a really nice rep at home that is perfect for what I am describing. | ||
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