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http://www.geocities.com/brattsunami/strats/zvt/content1-base.html
http://www.geocities.com/brattsunami/strats/zvp/content1-base.html
Those are Tsunami's old Zerg guides. I'm just curious if (other than that one JulyZerg game on Longinus) anyone has some goofy (and more or less recent) one base Zerg replays they could share. I really like them because it forces the Zerg to think for a change and play smart, rather than this macro whore style most people can't seem to get away from. I won't say one-base Zerg is entirely viable, especially at higher levels, but they're certainly fun to see when they do happen.
Feel free to discuss anything you like about one-base Zerg BOs as well  IMO one-base Zergs have the most options as far as misinformation and doing basically whatever the shit floats their boat
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Can you post JulyZerg's 1 base replay?
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you can think for a change and play smart without having to play a jerk-off one base strategy. if you want to 1 hatch muta, all the power to you
play a 2 hatch strategy if you want to have to micro and use your units well, but 1 base strategies are just ridiculously bad
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He's not saying 1 hatch builds yubee, he's talking about 1 base.
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On August 25 2007 05:19 caveman:caveman wrote:
He's not saying 1 hatch builds yubee, he's talking about 1 base. 1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win
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I can point you in the direction of some games. Maybe you can find them on Youtbue (VOD's).
Chojja vs Iris on Peaks of Baekdu from 2006 1st ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague
Yellow[name] vs IloveOov on 815-3 from 2006 1st ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague
Sir@Soni vs NaDa on Peaks of Baekdu
http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=825
All these are examples of ultra low eco Zerg from the highest level of gameplay. It's *still* viable, but not nearly as much as it was years ago. Needless to say though, original Peaks is a really good map for this style. Lurkers on the cliff can disrupt Terran mining too easily, meaning that he can't really abuse the cliffs as much as he'd like early game.
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On August 25 2007 05:26 yubee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2007 05:19 caveman:caveman wrote:
He's not saying 1 hatch builds yubee, he's talking about 1 base. 1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win
Not true. The viability of 1 base Zerg all depends on the map. On original Peaks, it was incredibly viable. It's what you know is *OBVIOUSLY* coming and yet it is still very difficult to block. In fact, it's the ONLY way you can really play that map. Yet, it's map history...
July > Iris
Savior > Sync
Luxury < Xellos
Child < Cuteboy
Luxury > NaDa
Chojja < Casy
Hazin[sam] > UpMagic
Shinhwa < Midas
Stay < Kuni
Yellow > Casy
Zergman < Casy
Chojja > Iris
Yarnc < Sea
Shinhwa > Boxer
Calm < Sea
July < Casy
Stay < Casy
Chojja < NaDa
July > Sync
Jju < Boxer
That's a whole lot of Zerg killers on the Terran side. I don't think I have to point out how skilled Casy, NaDa, Boxer, Sea, Iris, Xellos and SynC are in TvZ. Of them, Iris and SynC are the weakest against Zerg. If that's not scary, I don't know what is. Only 3 matches from the Terran side featured a gamer not very noteable (Cuteboy, Kuni and UpMagic), yet even then, Cuteboy is decent against Zerg (just shitty overall) and UpMagic is currently #14 ranked on KeSPA.
From the Zerg side, Zergman is somewhat weak ZvT (IMO he's under rated in that match-up as he's faced an impressive arsenal of Terrans, thus his shitty ZvT record), Shinhwa has panned out into a non-entity, Stay has panned out into a non-entity, Hazin is downright terrible, Child's ZvT is incredibly unimpressive, and Calm seems unable to win outside of proleague, and even there his record is not that inspiring (though recently he's been a surprisingly reliable ace).
All said and done, that list of Terrans is definitely more mind-blowing than that list of Zergs, and yet the Terrans only had a 12-8 record against Zerg on that map.
Seeing as how Zerg CAN SURVIVE on a map where 1 base is by far the most viable option, I think it goes without saying that 1 base is a viable strategy as more than just a gimmick to be used a couple times and forgotten.
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On August 25 2007 05:50 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2007 05:26 yubee wrote:On August 25 2007 05:19 caveman:caveman wrote:
He's not saying 1 hatch builds yubee, he's talking about 1 base. 1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win Not true. The viability of 1 base Zerg all depends on the map. On original Peaks, it was incredibly viable. It's what you know is *OBVIOUSLY* coming and yet it is still very difficult to block. In fact, it's the ONLY way you can really play that map. Yet, it's map history... July > Iris Savior > Sync Luxury < Xellos Child < Cuteboy Luxury > NaDa Chojja < Casy Hazin[sam] > UpMagic Shinhwa < Midas Stay < Kuni Yellow > Casy Zergman < Casy Chojja > Iris Yarnc < Sea Shinhwa > Boxer Calm < Sea July < Casy Stay < Casy Chojja < NaDa July > Sync Jju < Boxer That's a whole lot of Zerg killers on the Terran side. I don't think I have to point out how skilled Casy, NaDa, Boxer, Sea, Iris, Xellos and SynC are in TvZ. Of them, Iris and SynC are the weakest against Zerg. If that's not scary, I don't know what is. Only 3 matches from the Terran side featured a gamer not very noteable (Cuteboy, Kuni and UpMagic), yet even then, Cuteboy is decent against Zerg (just shitty overall) and UpMagic is currently #14 ranked on KeSPA. From the Zerg side, Zergman is somewhat weak ZvT (IMO he's under rated in that match-up as he's faced an impressive arsenal of Terrans, thus his shitty ZvT record), Shinhwa has panned out into a non-entity, Stay has panned out into a non-entity, Hazin is downright terrible, Child's ZvT is incredibly unimpressive, and Calm seems unable to win outside of proleague, and even there his record is not that inspiring (though recently he's been a surprisingly reliable ace). All said and done, that list of Terrans is definitely more mind-blowing than that list of Zergs, and yet the Terrans only had a 12-8 record against Zerg on that map. Seeing as how Zerg CAN SURVIVE on a map where 1 base is by far the most viable option, I think it goes without saying that 1 base is a viable strategy as more than just a gimmick to be used a couple times and forgotten. that's the dumbest reason for 1 base still being viable. a map sucks so it's viable? why the fuck do you think they updated the map?
is 1 base hive a viable strategy because it works on a map that has 10 gasses in the main?
1 base builds suck because your opponent can just play safe and overpower you. it's the same reason 2 hatch builds aren't used very much anymore, because they don't allow the same amount of flexibility that a 3 hatch does. if a terran covers his ass and minimizes all harass options, and you don't have amazing unit control, larva management, and macro timing, you will be pretty far behind. with 1 base, it's the same idea, but even LESS flexible than 2 hatch.
also, don't cite pro matches as reasons why 1 base builds can work, pro zergs have good enough micro and management to create their own windows to harass. the next time i see anyone take down a terran with 1 hatch muta on battle.net, i will post the replay, but until then, it's not viable.
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United States37500 Posts
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United States20661 Posts
YellOw vs Casy on that map wasn't one-base XD
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yubee, one base zerg is a purely reactional strategy. Whether you go lurks, muta, drop, speed/burrow etc. is up to what you think your opponent is either.
1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win
It's actually 11 hatch, 10 pool, 11 or 12 gas. Which means you have many lings early on if you want, and because the Terran will have a hard time guessing what you're doing you can even get fun things like Queens as the game progresses.
I think the main downfall of one base strats is that Terrans have simply learned to micro better. But at low levels, it's worked fine for me, not to mention being a lot more fun.
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On August 25 2007 07:26 PsycHOTemplar wrote:yubee, one base zerg is a purely reactional strategy. Whether you go lurks, muta, drop, speed/burrow etc. is up to what you think your opponent is either. Show nested quote +1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win It's actually 11 hatch, 10 pool, 11 or 12 gas. Which means you have many lings early on if you want, and because the Terran will have a hard time guessing what you're doing you can even get fun things like Queens as the game progresses. I think the main downfall of one base strats is that Terrans have simply learned to micro better. But at low levels, it's worked fine for me, not to mention being a lot more fun. no, terran won't have a hard time guessing because they can scout you. no, you can't get one base queens and win that's the dumbest shit i've ever heard of
and no, one base zerg isn't reactional wtf, you're putting your hatch down before you even scout him
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You don't even need micro when facing a one-base zerg. All you need to do is just defend properly, mass and attack.
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no, terran won't have a hard time guessing because they can scout you. no, you can't get one base queens and win that's the dumbest shit i've ever heard of
Yes, if you're turbo newbie you won't be able to kill the scout with the speedlings a one base strat affords you. I didn't say fast tech to queens, I mean later in the game you feel like you have a lot more opportunities with them because they game is so small scale.
Anyway, I played a one base Zerg strat just now, so I'll upload the replay. Neither myself nor the guy I was playing are very good, but for the sake of showing low level effectiveness of it (and the epicness of the games it can produce). And I just realised how nice it would have been to have Queens for Broodling. They are SO cost effective in low econ games. Too bad I forgot 
[url blocked]
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Holy crap these replays are awesome :O
So much different than the "macro and kill" methods of modern Zergs
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iG.Bruce vs MYM.4Leaf @ tau cross was pretty good, toss blocks the zerg's choke with a pylon and cannons while teching to corsair/reaver, zerg wins by massing hydras off 1 base and dropping in toss main.
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On August 25 2007 09:21 PsycHOTemplar wrote:Show nested quote +no, terran won't have a hard time guessing because they can scout you. no, you can't get one base queens and win that's the dumbest shit i've ever heard of Yes, if you're turbo newbie you won't be able to kill the scout with the speedlings a one base strat affords you. I didn't say fast tech to queens, I mean later in the game you feel like you have a lot more opportunities with them because they game is so small scale. Anyway, I played a one base Zerg strat just now, so I'll upload the replay. Neither myself nor the guy I was playing are very good, but for the sake of showing low level effectiveness of it (and the epicness of the games it can produce). And I just realised how nice it would have been to have Queens for Broodling. They are SO cost effective in low econ games. Too bad I forgot [url blocked] hey wow i'm totally converted, that was truly inspiring play on both sides! a one base lurker build? no, what's this, a one base slow lurker drop build? who could've guessed!
what i found really great was how protoss's response to a 1 base build was the old "try to leave as many openings as possible" strategy. 1 cannon at the front? sure! no cannons in main? sounds good to me! send out a probe to scout him? hell no!
protoss had 2 bases to your one. if he wasn't the least talented protoss i've ever seen, he would've steamrolled you easily.
ps, it was cute how even with robo and observatory, he refused to pump any observers to clear the two lurkers that destroyed his whole main. now that's what i call "playing smart and using units effectively"
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First of all, I said it we were low level gamers, so there's no need to be an asshole. Second, he's not the worst Toss ever =/ He kept his money low for the most part, and when he knew his expo was lost, he didn't hesitate to attack my base which would likely be empty because of my pre occupied army. It takes more than a total noob to recognise that opportunity.
I think his downfall is that he tried to copy what he'd seen pro gamer VODs, only obviously not nearly as well as them. Unfortunately for him, you almost never see one base Zerg in VODs, so he just pretended it didn't matter and went ahead with plans.
If he had prepared for everything, had cannons in his main, obviously I wouldn't have tried the Lurk drop. I would have assumed that he'd spent so much money on defence he didn't have much of a standing army, so I'd double expo and try to catch up in economy that way. The way it was though, I saw an opportunity to do damage, so I took it. If he had had one or two cannons in his main, I might still have gone for it. Those 8 lings I dropped with the lurks aren't totally useless you know.
Now look. All I'm saying is that it's fun for low level gamers like myself. It's not the best way to go, but it isn't complete suicide at my level either.
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On August 25 2007 13:49 PsycHOTemplar wrote:
First of all, I said it we were low level gamers, so there's no need to be an asshole. Second, he's not the worst Toss ever =/ He kept his money low for the most part, and when he knew his expo was lost, he didn't hesitate to attack my base which would likely be empty because of my pre occupied army. It takes more than a total noob to recognise that opportunity.
I think his downfall is that he tried to copy what he'd seen pro gamer VODs, only obviously not nearly as well as them. Unfortunately for him, you almost never see one base Zerg in VODs, so he just pretended it didn't matter and went ahead with plans.
If he had prepared for everything, had cannons in his main, obviously I wouldn't have tried the Lurk drop. I would have assumed that he'd spent so much money on defence he didn't have much of a standing army, so I'd double expo and try to catch up in economy that way. The way it was though, I saw an opportunity to do damage, so I took it. If he had had one or two cannons in his main, I might still have gone for it. Those 8 lings I dropped with the lurks aren't totally useless you know.
Now look. All I'm saying is that it's fun for low level gamers like myself. It's not the best way to go, but it isn't complete suicide at my level either. you think you have the opportunity to "catch up in macro" when his expansion is online before yours have even started? no dude, no, your strategy sucks. when a protoss sees high ling counts, he should add more cannons. the protoss just sucked horribly at reading the signs, don't think that your strategy is some mysterious never-before-seen ace in the hole
edit: ok ok go ahead with your sweet strats, i will keep out :p
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
i used to 1 base zvt all the time o-O called it the "Gay RUsh"
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don't think that your strategy is some mysterious never-before-seen ace in the hole
I linked to Tsunami's guides to one-base in the first post... Are you completely dense? He did it ALL the time. Infact, the fucking topic of the thread is asking for replays of people who've ALREADY done it :@
I just got done playing 2 one-base zvt's with a friend who is normally even skill with me (and I just got off a few days ago from a month er so hiatus), and really ruined his shit But I guess I won't post the replays since I know you'll just flame me again.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
yubee have you never heard of zergstory_namoo
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Valhalla18444 Posts
and shit dude what the hell crawled into your cunt you're like a one-man gay pride parade up in here
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On August 25 2007 15:02 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
yubee have you never heard of zergstory_namoo zergstory 2 bases, u suck fakesteve
update: fakesteve and i settled this in a grudge match. check the replay to see why a 1 base zerg build is definitely not viable
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32523
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Valhalla18444 Posts
You're here! You're queer! Get used to it!
why on earth did you go to the trouble of making a fake replay
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I mean, it's not like 1 base isn't viable, it's that there's ONLY ONE BUILD that works, and as soon as they see you going one base, they know lurks are coming. Then a slow drop. Then a fast drop. Then 2 expansion attempts.
ZvZ is all about one base builds, though.
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i guess this rep is ok use of 1 base, i was way behind in everything aswell.
i got loads of more 1base zerg games, usually 1 base 2 hatch lurker/ling is very good against zealotrush http://www.speedyshare.com/687805833.html
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
yubee's behavior is strangely reminiscent of that of my own.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
back on 04 during GoRush's rise he use to use 1base ZvT strats a lot.
Of course now it's not nearly as viable as ppl say, but it can be useful still.
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Yeah, anytime you just know the person is gonna try to do a gay proxy gate/rax this build completely ruins it. Trouble is that almost everyone today FE's because you know, all the pros do it
I mean, it's not like 1 base isn't viable, it's that there's ONLY ONE BUILD that works, and as soon as they see you going one base, they know lurks are coming. Then a slow drop. Then a fast drop. Then 2 expansion attempts.
Well, in one of my TvZ's he saw me going one base, I killed his SCV and started building Spire, when he sent his SCV to scout me I was able to stop it before it got in my main, (while I also in progress of building my nat's hatch now). He just scanned me though and saw the Spire. At that point I figured it'd be useless to try and harass him with 4 mutas against whatever ungodly number of turrets all Terrans build because they're used to being scared of regular 3 hatch 9 mutas. So I just built up a nice little speedling muta army to keep him from going out of his base. He hadn't expoed too quickly, so I think I ended up being 2:2 in bases anyway. Anyway, his decision making failed him when he sent out a few guys, ran them back to his little group of m'm at his nat that I raped with my muta ling. Had he been very smart he'd have had a bunker with some Firebats and the m'm behind it to kill the muta, but he didn't so I didn't mind taking the bull by the horns and killing off his nat while I expanded myself and teched.
EDIT: That was a GG Trek, thanks for sharing
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
ONE HATCH LING DROP GOGOGO
also, one hatch muta anyone? one base zerg is pretty shitty in general but not much worse than any other all-in cheese
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Hey Yubee, calm down douchenozzle
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as I have seen one base zerg it's more or less always cheese.. rushing tech or speedlings.. I used to do it a lot myself, but now I'm a lot more confident in a straight up zvt game so I stick with my macro style..
Anyway, it's viable. But it's do or die imo.
Didn't yellow do some one base muttalisk vs an FE terran and win? heard something about it.. link pls?
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Almost every one-base Zerg game I've ever seen has been like 20 minutes long o.o I guess that's cheese ;P
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welll, my strat was usually lurk rush->slow drop. Often I would fail to kill the T, but deal enough damage to justify it, continuing in a normal game afterwards, but with me ahead. At least vs good Ts.. but still a cheese opening..
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United States37500 Posts
On August 26 2007 02:25 Auspicious wrote:
Hey Yubee, calm down douchenozzle
Says the angriest person alive on TL.
Pot kettle black.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
aaaaaanyway
ZergStory_NamoO used to cruise op 30dom and op hyo- when those channels were full of amateurs and pros, i watched him play quite a bit and he used a 1base strategy in most of his zvts. it sure wasn't burrowed lings though
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On August 25 2007 06:29 yubee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2007 05:50 Mortality wrote:On August 25 2007 05:26 yubee wrote:On August 25 2007 05:19 caveman:caveman wrote:
He's not saying 1 hatch builds yubee, he's talking about 1 base. 1 hatch or 1 base, it doesn't matter, they are gimmicky builds that rarely work against anyone. besides, if you're gonna 12 hatch in main, why don't you just hatch at your expo so that you have better options if you don't score a 5 minute win Not true. The viability of 1 base Zerg all depends on the map. On original Peaks, it was incredibly viable. It's what you know is *OBVIOUSLY* coming and yet it is still very difficult to block. In fact, it's the ONLY way you can really play that map. Yet, it's map history... July > Iris Savior > Sync Luxury < Xellos Child < Cuteboy Luxury > NaDa Chojja < Casy Hazin[sam] > UpMagic Shinhwa < Midas Stay < Kuni Yellow > Casy Zergman < Casy Chojja > Iris Yarnc < Sea Shinhwa > Boxer Calm < Sea July < Casy Stay < Casy Chojja < NaDa July > Sync Jju < Boxer That's a whole lot of Zerg killers on the Terran side. I don't think I have to point out how skilled Casy, NaDa, Boxer, Sea, Iris, Xellos and SynC are in TvZ. Of them, Iris and SynC are the weakest against Zerg. If that's not scary, I don't know what is. Only 3 matches from the Terran side featured a gamer not very noteable (Cuteboy, Kuni and UpMagic), yet even then, Cuteboy is decent against Zerg (just shitty overall) and UpMagic is currently #14 ranked on KeSPA. From the Zerg side, Zergman is somewhat weak ZvT (IMO he's under rated in that match-up as he's faced an impressive arsenal of Terrans, thus his shitty ZvT record), Shinhwa has panned out into a non-entity, Stay has panned out into a non-entity, Hazin is downright terrible, Child's ZvT is incredibly unimpressive, and Calm seems unable to win outside of proleague, and even there his record is not that inspiring (though recently he's been a surprisingly reliable ace). All said and done, that list of Terrans is definitely more mind-blowing than that list of Zergs, and yet the Terrans only had a 12-8 record against Zerg on that map. Seeing as how Zerg CAN SURVIVE on a map where 1 base is by far the most viable option, I think it goes without saying that 1 base is a viable strategy as more than just a gimmick to be used a couple times and forgotten. that's the dumbest reason for 1 base still being viable. a map sucks so it's viable? why the fuck do you think they updated the map? is 1 base hive a viable strategy because it works on a map that has 10 gasses in the main? 1 base builds suck because your opponent can just play safe and overpower you. it's the same reason 2 hatch builds aren't used very much anymore, because they don't allow the same amount of flexibility that a 3 hatch does. if a terran covers his ass and minimizes all harass options, and you don't have amazing unit control, larva management, and macro timing, you will be pretty far behind. with 1 base, it's the same idea, but even LESS flexible than 2 hatch. also, don't cite pro matches as reasons why 1 base builds can work, pro zergs have good enough micro and management to create their own windows to harass. the next time i see anyone take down a terran with 1 hatch muta on battle.net, i will post the replay, but until then, it's not viable.
What, are you expecting me to tell you to use it on a macro map like Arcadia? How fucking stupid are you? Obviously it works better on smaller maps; however, it would be far better on Sin Peaks if the second base entrance didn't have that mineral patch there. Even so, you can still stick a lurker there and fuck with the other player's ability to get shit down his ramp and you can even use a lurker there to support an advancement into his base, but it's more risky than on the original since he can more easily defend with the high ground and you can't do as much about his mining. Even so, 1 base Zerg is perfectly viable on LT.
Who the fuck said anything about 1 base Hive? Anyone who actually knows anything about 1 base Zerg knows that if you slow your opponent down adequately but fail to defeat him upfront (a highly plausible outcome considering you are focusing on early game pressure), then you go for gas more heavily than minerals. You aren't going to play a mineral rich game, but you don't need to because your opponents numbers are going to be substantially reduced. However, none of that matters since gas is what you will really need. Simply by virtue of having drones spread out adequately you will accumulate minerals at a surprising pace (or have you never seen July play? His drone counts are shockingly low given how much he mines -- his style epitimizes a proper distribution of drones for a high pressure game).
So it works on Peaks because that map sucks? You realize that most people say T > Z on that map, right? According to most people, it sucks for you when you are the Zerg, yet 1 base play is extremely viable becauser the map sucks for Zerg? Your argument is completely nonsensical.
Get a clue: it sucks for you because YOUR micro is shitty. Don't lob that title on everyone else. In fact, it doesn't even require particularly amazing micro, just clever tactics that involve duping your opponent into making mistakes and highly utilizing any and all terrain assets (cliffs, chokes, using held lurkers, etc). This much would be obvious if you knew what incontrol was referring to when he commented that it is his "gay rush" build.
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Calgary25998 Posts
You're more likely to lose with 1 base than any expansion (Pool first or otherwise) build. Does that make it viable? I'd say no, but by definition I suppose it is "viable". I'm not sure why everyone's defending it so vehemently; it's a cute build that is bad.
There's a reason you never see anyone 1 base. It's a bad build. You can go on and on and name the players who win with it and the strengths of the build, but you are more likely to lose with it.
I didn't want to side with yubee because he's terrible, has no strategic sense, has somewhat of a foul odour and oily skin, but he's right. One base Zerg is a bad build.
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IMO you are terribly underrating it. Most of the maps we play are more macro oriented to begin with and yes, on those maps, it is bad. But on any map that is more micro/strategy or even a very netural map (like LT), 1 hatch builds are perfectly viable, and particularly on smaller maps, its viable as more than just a quick cheese.
Don't underestimate the power of the 9 pool.
I must also point out that while you act like non-progamer level players can't pull it off, I'd argue that many modern Terrans are equally bad at defending against it since it is a highly uncommon strategy.
Why do I advocate it so heavily? It's a good build to have in your arsenal, especially for when you're confronted with maps that standard style ZvT has trouble fitting on. When tfeign hyped up Chojja so heavily, I firmly dismissed all his arguments that Chojja was the best ZvT player in the world (already at that time Savior had truly pulled ahead of the pack), but I must point out the strength Chojja brought to the table that earned him 2nd place in an OSL: he is a macro player who is perfectly comfortable switching to low eco (including 1 base) play. That well-roundedness is important to have, and while Chojja lacks the cohesion of style that Savior and July demonstrate, he has the advantage of more than one bag of tricks to draw from and use effectively (and I'd argue that he's extremely well known for that; he's a macro player known for his 1 base Zerg and 9 pooling abilities). Even if you never play on maps like Peaks and Cultivation Period where the normal kinds of 12 hatch or similar builds are not very viable, having the well-roundedness of being comfortable with poor Zerg in your arsenal provides you with a distinctive bag of tricks that can come in handy even on macro based maps. Is it any wonder why Chojja dominated on Rush Hour, where the exact same terrain features that would normally benefit a Terran would be thrown right back at them by Chojja's superior use of tactics that, I argue, benefit greatly from his experience with low eco Zerg? He is, after all, known as the king of 1 base Zerg, yet the map that stood out the most to me from his recent hot streak as being "his map" was Rush Hour.
That is why I argue it so vehemently. It's a great trick to have that IS viable, and even if it's not up your alley, familiarizing yourself with it comes with added advantages that would help your gameplay regardless.
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Here's one of me going 9pool speedlings -> 1 hatch lurk and winning zvp against 2 gate toss i played today on iccup and saw this thread so i figured i'd post it.
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32530
I wouldn't say its a bad build, its just more situationally dependent. Its better vs some builds than 2 base, and can be more effective than 2 base, but 2 base is moderately viable against almost all openings.
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Calgary25998 Posts
Mort it's viable. It just isn't as good as the alternatives. It's like playing a sport where you can use equipment from 1924 or modern equipment. Using the old stuff is viable, but that doesn't mean it's not bad.
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Of course you will lose more than you win with it. Otherwise everyone would do it. But as Mort says, it's good to have in your arsenal. Especially in series of games it can work well if your opponent know that you MIGHT do a 1base build instead of classic 12hatch 11pool. I would say that is it's greatest asset, psychology. Also, it catches many player off guard since they are not used to face it at all..
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you can 1 hatch lurker or if you know the terran is gonna 1 rax cc on longinus, 9 pool to 1 hatch muta.
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Mortality, I think that had more to do with Chojja's defiler build than 1 hatch play.
If you remember, it was a lot of zergalingaglings and hydraliskalisk and defilers that made Chojja RH gosu.
1 base does sorta suck. I guess it can be surprising early game with a big # of lings or something but... why not just get the 2nd hatch at the nat or just fuckn 5 pool if you are gonna seriously go 1 hatch lair. The longer the all in build takes, the easier it is to generally read and stop. Still, it's nowhere as useless as Yubee made it sound, that was ignorance.
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I recall Chojja's ability to use the terrain, and particularly the bridges, effectively in both ZvT and ZvP as being an integral part of his success on that map.
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isn't one base zvt the only way to play 3-12 positions on LT? anyone knows something different cuz i have trouble in those positions.
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If Zerg is at 3, then 2 hatching is perfectly viable as well. You'll just have to be extra careful if he goes for a rush. Mainly though, unless he goes 8 rax (which is pure luck since he shouldn't know that you are at 3 by the time he commits to that build), you should be able to handle a bunker rush. Harder to handle would be a timed rush Like Oov did to Savior in those same spots or like Midas did to Chojja on Azalea at WCG Korea 2006 (it's a 2 rax rush where you cut SCVs after I think 15, not 100% sure on the number, and power off 2 rax and launch a timed assault, hard as hell to stop).
If Zerg is at 12, then on many versions of LT, a tank on the Terran's ledge can smack your third hatch if you place it below your ramp. Some of the "more recent" (yet still very old) versions of LT have been changed so you can't do that, but I know that on the oldest versions you could. Basically, that means that 1 base really is the only option.
However, just because a map forces you to 1 base doesn't mean it's ideal. On Peaks, it is ideal since lurkers are incredibly devastating there and speedlings are also more difficult to be rid of. A good Z player on that map can force the Terran onto the defensive and use that to get the gas expo in the corner. If the Zerg can do his job, the game starts looking good for him pretty fast.
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EPT
