EPTHydralisks in ZvZ
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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StaticNine
27 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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srj
Canada134 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3343 Posts
https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/335586-hydra-zvz-an-introduction | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2031 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7763 Posts
Maybe someone could try hydras in a serious zvz. I saw larva going hydras in a match , but only for fun. He won anyway  | ||
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kogeT
Poland2031 Posts
On April 11 2020 20:25 prosatan wrote: Nostalgia has no gas at the natural location. Maybe someone could try hydras in a serious zvz. I saw larva going hydras in a match , but only for fun. He won anyway But you need 2 gas for hydra anyway. Hydras are same as bio in TvZ, it is only good at bigger numbers. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
On April 11 2020 19:16 MeSaber wrote: Was just gonna say that. If you can get a hydra ball going its unstoppable until swarm/plague. Even just bumping armor +1 early can make a huge difference vs both lings/mutas. Actually lurkers would be a hard counter to mass hydra. But on subject, I also feel that you need the 2nd gas for hydras, at least for +1 carapace and range and speed upgrades. And yes, 2 gas muta will beat that on common maps. Is there anything to do on the map to change this? The point is that the change should not disbalance other matchups. For example: allied spore colony in the mineral line - no, PvZ and partially also TvZ would suffer distuption web between the assimilator and the hatchery - doesn't protect against air So, I don't have great ideas | ||
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Sonic_md
Moldova275 Posts
i want to see some VOD. it will be interesting)) | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Once you leave your base he will roll your main but you will also roll his whole base + bring drones. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7763 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
What we are looking is to imagine a map where hydra opening could be viable, and the map still up for tournament play. Arbiter field above the gas drone line to prevent muta snipes? It would still be possible to check whether gas was mined or not (for other matchups). | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
On April 13 2020 19:17 Rainalcar wrote: Nice game, but not a hydra opening, it was Zero incorporating them in a one-off hive zvz. What we are looking is to imagine a map where hydra opening could be viable, and the map still up for tournament play. Arbiter field above the gas drone line to prevent muta snipes? It would still be possible to check whether gas was mined or not (for other matchups). neutral arbs only cloak other neutral unit sprites, would be possible to just give the players arbs that can't move/attack with triggers but not in melee gametype. Dwebs also don't work as they only affect ground units. what you're probably looking for is neutral dark swarm, which is possible to place over mins ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ZenXFVg.png) You can't get a full coverage as you can't place unit sprites within an area of player starts, but it might be enough to stop you getting harrassed to death by mutas. ZvT would probably be the most affected by this as T would probably spend a lot less on turrets to hold muta harrass. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
Any other ideas or considerations? | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece721 Posts
This playstyle is more strategic (macro, decision making, timing), nullifying skill (micro, multitask) difference to an extent. Hence playing to my strengths maximizes my winrate. Pros don't use it because at an equal high level skill, its inferior. But at equal medium level skill, I find it actually superior. Vs pure muta ling you can add a few lurkers. Vs muta crack you are toast without lurkers. Vs mass muta (4 gas) you can crush it with 2 base hydra + devourers. Vs lurkers you need speed overlord. In general its important to create a much bigger eco (drone and hatchwise), else it fails. You do that the same way you would 4-5 hatch vs P. You start 3-4 hatch before gas, mass drones and spore up just in time. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19207 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece721 Posts
I can demonstrate with games, hard to fully explain just with theory. I'm open to challenges! I am not narrowly talking about a specific hydra opening btw, but about the option of transition to hydra at any time, even with a muta start. The basic strategic element is abusing hydras low gas cost, making it possible to combat enemy's air through superior crystal harvesting. Nostalgia is a nice "old" map, without gas at nat, naturally favoring hydra. "old" because to me anything after lost temple, dire straits and ashrigo still feels new, lol | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
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JakePlissken
55 Posts
On April 24 2020 00:11 Rainalcar wrote: As far as I see it, not having gas at the natural could disrupt the general balance a lot. So, ideally, we need a map where mutas are less attractive, but where the other matchups are not disturbed. I don't think that map shape could help with this a lot, so maybe some kind of worker protection or resource tweak? There will never be a map similar to Nostalgia again because it basically confines Protoss to one base. Terrans can stay on one gas for a while and be fine with Vultures and mines, which Protoss needs gas-intensive tech units to counter. Zerg can take three bases early versus protoss, pretty much anywhere they want. A mineral base only helps Protoss make Zealots which are hard countered by Hydras, Lings, Vultures, mines, all of which can be massed on one base for free control of the map. 1 base Protoss falls behind rapidly to 2 base Zerg or 1 base Terran, so a map where your only viable expansion is a mineral only base you don't want is too crippling to be considered for serious play. | ||
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g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
On April 23 2020 02:34 Rainalcar wrote: I've read your guides, they were very interesting. But in essence, on pro level hydra is not viable. Maybe you have map specific suggestions? if you will try to find some jaedong's games zvz. You can suddenly find that he used hydra sometimes. As i can remember properly last game i saw was vs maybe MISO or Shine on a map Gold Rush. That was not pure Hydra vs Muta but Muta vs Muta into Muta vs Muta/Hydra. Actually hydras have very good DPS and almost allways win mutalisks builds vs same eco, 2 vs 2 bases, 3 vs 3 bases etc. The problem of hydras is that it is slow and vulnerable to diffrent attacks so hydra player should invest a lot of money into good defence and eco. While pure muta player could ez harass and play on low eco. Because of that hydra is unplayable on maps like nostalgia or blue storm or peaks of baekdu etc. Many thin passages make muta harass very successive. For a hydra style you need to play a wide open map with a good mineral/gas spore defence. Like tau cross, longinus, circuit breakers may be, etc. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
On April 24 2020 05:15 g0rynich wrote: if you will try to find some jaedong's games zvz. You can suddenly find that he used hydra sometimes. As i can remember properly last game i saw was vs maybe MISO or Shine on a map Gold Rush. That was not pure Hydra vs Muta but Muta vs Muta into Muta vs Muta/Hydra. Actually hydras have very good DPS and almost allways win mutalisks builds vs same eco, 2 vs 2 bases, 3 vs 3 bases etc. The problem of hydras is that it is slow and vulnerable to diffrent attacks so hydra player should invest a lot of money into good defence and eco. While pure muta player could ez harass and play on low eco. Because of that hydra is unplayable on maps like nostalgia or blue storm or peaks of baekdu etc. Many thin passages make muta harass very successive. For a hydra style you need to play a wide open map with a good mineral/gas spore defence. Like tau cross, longinus, circuit breakers may be, etc. Agreed. But it still doesn't apply to pro play, nobody ever opened hydra to my knowledge. I have however seen some switches to hydra, as you say. Is there a map-specific way to prevent at least some of the drones from muta harass, while preserving balance of other matchups? | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece721 Posts
So the general plan is: Larvae advantage --> eco advantage --> defend with spores+grade up +1 range -> mass The way you put it, I think no map exists which would favor a pure hydra opening with same economy & hatch count. Lings are much cheaper and can easily take care until mutas come. If the map is too narrow for lings, so it is for hydras. | ||
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g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
On April 24 2020 20:15 Rainalcar wrote: Agreed. But it still doesn't apply to pro play, nobody ever opened hydra to my knowledge. I have however seen some switches to hydra, as you say. Is there a map-specific way to prevent at least some of the drones from muta harass, while preserving balance of other matchups? Generally if you want to open hydra the best way is to open a greedy build like 3x hatchery+speed lings and put your opponent under pressure with mass zergling - slowing his eco as much as possible while right after your push you still can ez drone up well. You defend with spores and now have 3 diffrent ways of play: timing push at 0/1 or 1/1 upgrades at tier1 with pure hydras, timing push with hydra/lurker or hydra/scourge, timing push with hydra/lurker/defiler or hydra/devourers. It is very dependable of the map and of your scouting, because muta zerg can do many diffrent things to answer your eco defence. He almost always prevents your early scoting, so he can counter hydras with a number of ways: 1) if your nat has a cliff he can just make guardians and defend himself with a ton of sunkens, he can just take 4 gases and make mass muta, he can make muta from 2/3 gases and make 1/1 mass lings from 4/5 hatcheries, he can make 10 lurers and push your natural, he can runby your main or nat with muta/ling while you out and defend himself with sunkes, he can just take highground bases and defend them with lurers of a cliff and himself with sunken/lurker. Everything need a proper preparation from hydra. That is the main weakness of the build. High level muta zerg will prevent hydra zerg from scouting at all. In that case there is NO universal build so muta has favor. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1526 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
True, Lings kill Hydras if they can use Swarm, but put one Lurker and Lings pop like popcorn. It may be due to rarity, but I consider ZvZ to be potentially by far the most interesting mirror in the game, except that late game is virtually unattainable. Opening hydras could offer a bigger chance to get there simply because lurkers allow fantastic turtling. | ||
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