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On September 10 2019 07:36 WilliamBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 01:48 fefil wrote:
Yeah honestly I never get storm in PvT in favor of more arbiters or zealot shuttles. Microing minedragging, zealot bombs, statis, dodging emps, saving observers is already enough. I don't need storm on top of all that, not that i've tried.
Besides I would rather have a shuttle full of zealots than 2 HT anyway. anyone else agree? On the other hand, you can get storms out before the arbiters or carriers arrive and that may be an option to halt the terran timing push by storming the tanks just like in the Jangbi vs Flash clips in the above.
wouldnt it just be more reliable if you had 3 shuttles of zealots rather than psi storm before arbiter tech?
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On September 11 2019 01:19 fefil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2019 07:36 WilliamBlue wrote:On September 10 2019 01:48 fefil wrote:
Yeah honestly I never get storm in PvT in favor of more arbiters or zealot shuttles. Microing minedragging, zealot bombs, statis, dodging emps, saving observers is already enough. I don't need storm on top of all that, not that i've tried.
Besides I would rather have a shuttle full of zealots than 2 HT anyway. anyone else agree? On the other hand, you can get storms out before the arbiters or carriers arrive and that may be an option to halt the terran timing push by storming the tanks just like in the Jangbi vs Flash clips in the above. wouldnt it just be more reliable if you had 3 shuttles of zealots rather than psi storm before arbiter tech?
It depends on your preference. Storms destroy clumped units faster than zealot bombs. It would be better if you can add the leg enhancements upgrade to zealots and storm drop clump of tanks in my opinion.
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
JangBi is the best PvT player of all time (imo) even if I hate hbim for beating FanTaSy I've gotta respect the hustle. The lack of gateways is honestly something I see even from a lot of current pros, it never used to be a problem but maybe it's just the timing of the push has changed. I think the old major push timing was 3/2 - now people are pushing at 2/1 which comes out a lot quicker.
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On September 10 2019 16:16 WilliamBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2019 15:43 RWLabs wrote:
Plastering cannons around your Nexus isn't something you do voluntarily, it's something you're forced to do. But I don't see it done often in PvT, even in pro matches, perhaps only in PvZ (where cannons are plastered at the entrance of the second main together with gateway,forge to form a blockade). I mean the players would rather pull the probes and send in reinforcements to counter the vultures rather than to sacrifice some minerals to fortify the base with cannons based on my observation. Perhaps, they (the players) feel that it is a waste of resources to plaster cannons around the Nexus?
the problem is that vultures kills probes really fast, so you might end up loosing a lot of probes even if you have some cannons.
Also vultures with upgrades can fight some cannons.
That is why some players prefer to try to fight it with no or just 1-2 cannons per base
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On September 11 2019 16:03 Qikz wrote:
I think the old major push timing was 3/2 - now people are pushing at 2/1 which comes out a lot quicker.
It is one way to catch the Protoss off-guard and unprepared.
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The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from?
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On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote:
The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from?
Well, there are two reasons here. One reason is to quash the talk on Tesagi (Terran being overpowered) in that Top Terrans like Flash and Fantasy can be beaten in a best of series, when Jangbi beat them both en route to the OSL' 11 title. Another reason is that high-end Protosses like Snow and Rain could learn a thing or two from Jangbi when facing a top terran in players like Flash, like opting for storms in key decisive battles.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/frMQDbm.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ec2fKU7.jpg)
You can see the contrast in the above where in decisive key moments, psi storms can really turn the tide of the battle.
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On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote:
The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from?
honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys.
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On September 18 2019 07:22 lifef wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote:
The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from? honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys.
I just want to clarify that taking another main is definitely not unique.
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On September 20 2019 00:15 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 07:22 lifef wrote:On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote:
The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from? honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys. I just want to clarify that taking another main is definitely not unique.
definitely was at the time. i remember a lot of P (bisu, best, etc) were going for 2 base arb and trying to thin out the terrans tank line by making science vessels etc. only "recently" around 2009 did P start doing the style of making gateways in every corner of the map possible so you can flank/remax more reliably. i think that is less to do with a metagame shift and moreso the changing map pool, though.
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On September 20 2019 03:58 mrfefil wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2019 00:15 Jealous wrote:On September 18 2019 07:22 lifef wrote:On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote:
The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from? honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys. I just want to clarify that taking another main is definitely not unique. definitely was at the time. i remember a lot of P (bisu, best, etc) were going for 2 base arb and trying to thin out the terrans tank line by making science vessels etc. only "recently" around 2009 did P start doing the style of making gateways in every corner of the map possible so you can flank, remax more reliably
Sorry, no. Protoss taking another main, regardless of what build they opened with, had been common for years prior to that. In fact, one of the most infamous matches of all time, fOru vs. NaDa from 2002 is known specifically for the fact that fOru built ~55 gates on the map, taking both of the other mains. This was already a known and accepted approach to PvT back then.
Anyway, don't you have more important things to be doing right now?
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Uh I like the idea of analysing Jangbi PvT
I don't see many tricks that makes Jangbi different from the rest. I agree with quiz that he is the best PvT ever but not because of any trick in particular.
I 'm not sure the ones listed are tricks he discovered and he used that none else was aware of.
What sets him appart from the rest is that he is(was) just better at the every important apsect of the game: a crafty player, a mechanical monster with incredible eco/macro managment, superior game sense and micro, I mean, he is The Almighty aaamrite, nothing cartoonish about his nickname.
Storm like the above is not a trick (!!), it's a prowess, anyone who can attack like that constantly may very well be able to completely replace arbiter tech with "that", I'm not sure tho, but it sounds logical to me right now.
If can't do "that" (you, me and everyone else), it seems that storm should be later aided with Arbiter or Carrier, and that's where things get complicated. The way I see it, it's just hard to pull off. But recently I've been thinking I should practice it because pre stasis pushes are very deadly sometimes, 4 zealot shuttle is just not enough.
Overall a very nice debate we are having here
My conclusion on the matter: Jangbi is awesome
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EPT
