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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
1. Pylon Walling slows mech advances. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/yPzfAdz.jpg) 2. Creating multiple cannons surrounding Nexus to kite vulture run-bys. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2cKn8Ga.jpg) 3. Create 8 Gateways per base to soak up tank damage as well as ring up gateway units production. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/YlxrZCu.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/qkn9GkG.jpg) 4. Psi Storm is often overlooked in favour of Stasis, Recalls or Carriers. - Psi Storm provides AOE damage and comes as an added tank-busting option to the Protoss ground arsenal before Arbiters or Carriers arrive. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/iDGrZDo.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/UOjDhU1.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/UXIEf7k.jpg) Thanks, and awaiting feedback from the community. Cheers. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
With these 4 simple tricks you, too, can play like JangBi! Haha, but in all seriousness, JangBi seems like one of the few Protoss players who can take on Flash or Fantasy and had an 80% PvT winrate during his prime. | ||
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chozen86
United States60 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8266 Posts
On September 04 2019 23:15 Ej_ wrote: With these 4 simple tricks you, too, can play like JangBi! Ha, nice post ! It made me think at something like : terran players hate him! 4 simple tricks to always win at pvt Good analysis! I like sometimes to go for high templars, but often they are sniped by vultures because they are slow and always in the back of my army  | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 05 2019 06:09 prosatan wrote: Ha, nice post ! It made me think at something like : terran players hate him! 4 simple tricks to always win at pvt Good analysis! I like sometimes to go for high templars, but often they are sniped by vultures because they are slow and always in the back of my army Hi, thanks for your feedback. Dragoons are a perfect counter to vultures and they do provide some cover to your high templars when you mix them in between them as you can see in the clips above, whereby Jangbi uses his dragoons as a cover while storming the tanks. | ||
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
On September 05 2019 06:34 WilliamBlue wrote: Hi, thanks for your feedback. Dragoons are a perfect counter to vultures and they do provide some cover to your high templars when you mix them in between them as you can see in the clips above, whereby Jangbi uses his dragoons as a cover while storming the tanks. That's not quite right. If you go for templars PvT you absolutely need to put them in shuttles, there's no other way around it. If they are not on shuttles they can get killed by vultures, even if surrounded and/or EMP'd as T will have science vessels to counter arbiters. | ||
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yubo56
688 Posts
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InDi
Spain90 Posts
On September 05 2019 13:35 yubo56 wrote: Also, the mass gateways game was a pretty unique scenario, Jangbi was able to secure 2 mains on a 3 player map and get a serious bank started. I don't have a great understanding of TvP, but (1) getting some gateways up on a second main is a common tip for PvT, and (2) 25 gates is not tenable even with 6 (almost 7) bases, you can see Jangbi's bank burn from 2.5k mins to 0 with just 2 remaxes, so it's not sustainable. In PvT lategame you need 20+ Gates, as you need to remax faster than the T, quite a common scenario and a common mistake of many lower level players! | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 05 2019 11:57 InDi wrote: That's not quite right. If you go for templars PvT you absolutely need to put them in shuttles, there's no other way around it. If they are not on shuttles they can get killed by vultures, even if surrounded and/or EMP'd as T will have science vessels to counter arbiters. Yes, you are right in that shuttles are absolutely needed. But I would also like to point out that unless you manually target the high templars with your vultures, the army surround of dragoons and zealots will draw fire away from the templars. | ||
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yubo56
688 Posts
On September 05 2019 19:20 InDi wrote: In PvT lategame you need 20+ Gates, as you need to remax faster than the T, quite a common scenario and a common mistake of many lower level players! I don't think you can usually make it up to 20+ so quickly though no, at least not in time for the 2/1 push? I feel like at least back when I was following the game, the 2/1 push doesn't actually give the P much time to take so many bases and add gateways, felt like it was closer to 18 gates w/ ~6-7 @ the second main. Jangbi was exceptionally rich this game lol, though I don't rmr exactly what happened. I do think that once you survive the 2/1 timing push, if you have a bit of breathing room and are maxed again, more gates can't hurt. | ||
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RWLabs
Korea (South)273 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2277 Posts
On September 06 2019 04:11 yubo56 wrote: I don't think you can usually make it up to 20+ so quickly though no, at least not in time for the 2/1 push? I feel like at least back when I was following the game, the 2/1 push doesn't actually give the P much time to take so many bases and add gateways, felt like it was closer to 18 gates w/ ~6-7 @ the second main. Jangbi was exceptionally rich this game lol, though I don't rmr exactly what happened. I do think that once you survive the 2/1 timing push, if you have a bit of breathing room and are maxed again, more gates can't hurt. You can totally have arround 16-20 gate when the 2-1 push comes. In fs, natural and 3rd are taken quiclky by p and t, so if p ,with his observer, scouts 3ple command and armory, the most common response is to delay gates + take 4th, optimally another main and add gates there asap. So u will be like 8-10 gate + starport in ur main, and something like 6-8 gate in your 4th by the time the push comes. If you delay his push or can recall succesfully you can add more gates while taking the whole map. | ||
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yubo56
688 Posts
On September 08 2019 16:28 XenOsky wrote: You can totally have arround 16-20 gate when the 2-1 push comes. In fs, natural and 3rd are taken quiclky by p and t, so if p ,with his observer, scouts 3ple command and armory, the most common response is to delay gates + take 4th, optimally another main and add gates there asap. So u will be like 8-10 gate + starport in ur main, and something like 6-8 gate in your 4th by the time the push comes. If you delay his push or can recall succesfully you can add more gates while taking the whole map. Right, 16-20 sounds reasonable for a 2/1 push, but not 25. I guess Jangbi got one recall off as well, which is probably how he made it up to 25. I guess that ordering makes sense then. I know I'm fixating a lot on that magical 25 number, but that was 10 extra zealots in the two remaxes he did (maybe it was 3 remaxes? so 15 zeals?), plus 750 extra minerals for the gates themselves, so it's a big commitment rather situational. I think a lower level player trying to copy the mass gates at second main could easily over commit, and I wanted to make sure we knew the right nunbers for the initial big 2/1 push. But thanks for the correction | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
Besides I would rather have a shuttle full of zealots than 2 HT anyway. anyone else agree? | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 10 2019 01:48 fefil wrote: Yeah honestly I never get storm in PvT in favor of more arbiters or zealot shuttles. Microing minedragging, zealot bombs, statis, dodging emps, saving observers is already enough. I don't need storm on top of all that, not that i've tried. Besides I would rather have a shuttle full of zealots than 2 HT anyway. anyone else agree? It depends on the level of your Terran opponent in TvP and his ability to mind read the game. Top Terran players will attempt an initial big push of tanks+vultures once they scanned the fleet beacon or arbiter tribunal and stargates and/or that the stargates just undergo production. That is the timing window that the Terrans will try to exploit, like for example, in game 3 of the recent Flash vs Snow match in the ASL 8, Flash attempts a push once he scanned Snow's main that he was going for carriers and that carriers are not that effective especially when their count is low. On the other hand, you can get storms out before the arbiters or carriers arrive and that may be an option to halt the terran timing push by storming the tanks just like in the Jangbi vs Flash clips in the above. Another reason is that the dragoons+zealots+storms+carriers/stasis combo is more deadly than the dragoons+zealots+carriers/stasis combo in the late game. You can say that storms are not needed due to having to micro the shuttles and templars on top of all that is required in PvT, but in my opinion, it further adds variety to your game, for instance, having a storm+stasis combo, the science vessels have an extra work of having not only to EMP the Arbiters, but having to EMP the High Templars as well and especially when they are well spread or flanked. | ||
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
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prosatan
Romania8266 Posts
On September 10 2019 09:00 LG)Sabbath wrote: Has JangBi completely retired at this point? Yeap, i read that he works with his family now | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 08 2019 15:43 RWLabs wrote: Plastering cannons around your Nexus isn't something you do voluntarily, it's something you're forced to do. But I don't see it done often in PvT, even in pro matches, perhaps only in PvZ (where cannons are plastered at the entrance of the second main together with gateway,forge to form a blockade). I mean the players would rather pull the probes and send in reinforcements to counter the vultures rather than to sacrifice some minerals to fortify the base with cannons based on my observation. Perhaps, they (the players) feel that it is a waste of resources to plaster cannons around the Nexus? | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2277 Posts
On September 10 2019 01:48 fefil wrote: Yeah honestly I never get storm in PvT in favor of more arbiters or zealot shuttles. Microing minedragging, zealot bombs, statis, dodging emps, saving observers is already enough. I don't need storm on top of all that, not that i've tried. Besides I would rather have a shuttle full of zealots than 2 HT anyway. anyone else agree? if you want to fight the 3/2, 3/3 terran army, you will need some storms. But 2/1 push can be dealt with good positioning, good recall timing, backstabs attempts or stasis, basically they way you deal with terrans first big push is the main difference between bad and good PvT players imo. Is at this point where advantages or disadvantages are taken. if you learn how to unload 4 ht off a shuttle (ideally after 1st tank shot so terran doesnt snipe your hts) and storm groups of clumped tanks quickly, then your PvT is going to improve drastically. + Show Spoiler + Also korean fangirls gonna scream for you just like this | ||
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fefil
92 Posts
On September 10 2019 07:36 WilliamBlue wrote: On the other hand, you can get storms out before the arbiters or carriers arrive and that may be an option to halt the terran timing push by storming the tanks just like in the Jangbi vs Flash clips in the above. wouldnt it just be more reliable if you had 3 shuttles of zealots rather than psi storm before arbiter tech? | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 11 2019 01:19 fefil wrote: wouldnt it just be more reliable if you had 3 shuttles of zealots rather than psi storm before arbiter tech? It depends on your preference. Storms destroy clumped units faster than zealot bombs. It would be better if you can add the leg enhancements upgrade to zealots and storm drop clump of tanks in my opinion. | ||
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On September 10 2019 16:16 WilliamBlue wrote: But I don't see it done often in PvT, even in pro matches, perhaps only in PvZ (where cannons are plastered at the entrance of the second main together with gateway,forge to form a blockade). I mean the players would rather pull the probes and send in reinforcements to counter the vultures rather than to sacrifice some minerals to fortify the base with cannons based on my observation. Perhaps, they (the players) feel that it is a waste of resources to plaster cannons around the Nexus? the problem is that vultures kills probes really fast, so you might end up loosing a lot of probes even if you have some cannons. Also vultures with upgrades can fight some cannons. That is why some players prefer to try to fight it with no or just 1-2 cannons per base | ||
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 11 2019 16:03 Qikz wrote: I think the old major push timing was 3/2 - now people are pushing at 2/1 which comes out a lot quicker. It is one way to catch the Protoss off-guard and unprepared. | ||
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ArcadePlus
United States44 Posts
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WilliamBlue
26 Posts
On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote: The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from? Well, there are two reasons here. One reason is to quash the talk on Tesagi (Terran being overpowered) in that Top Terrans like Flash and Fantasy can be beaten in a best of series, when Jangbi beat them both en route to the OSL' 11 title. Another reason is that high-end Protosses like Snow and Rain could learn a thing or two from Jangbi when facing a top terran in players like Flash, like opting for storms in key decisive battles. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/frMQDbm.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ec2fKU7.jpg) You can see the contrast in the above where in decisive key moments, psi storms can really turn the tide of the battle. | ||
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lifef
4 Posts
On September 16 2019 13:13 ArcadePlus wrote: The question here is, for me, what about this is unique to Janbgi? Is there something here that the other dragon's weren't doing at the time? or is there something here for contemporary high-end protoss to learn from? honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys. | ||
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Jealous
10174 Posts
On September 18 2019 07:22 lifef wrote: honestly his direction of expanding was fairly unique at the time. at least in the aforementioned series, he expanded to another main pretty much every time for his fourth base. this is to allow gateway spamming, also putting cannons at a ramp make it much easier to defend against vulture runbys. I just want to clarify that taking another main is definitely not unique. | ||
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mrfefil
3 Posts
On September 20 2019 00:15 Jealous wrote: I just want to clarify that taking another main is definitely not unique. definitely was at the time. i remember a lot of P (bisu, best, etc) were going for 2 base arb and trying to thin out the terrans tank line by making science vessels etc. only "recently" around 2009 did P start doing the style of making gateways in every corner of the map possible so you can flank/remax more reliably. i think that is less to do with a metagame shift and moreso the changing map pool, though. | ||
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Jealous
10174 Posts
On September 20 2019 03:58 mrfefil wrote: definitely was at the time. i remember a lot of P (bisu, best, etc) were going for 2 base arb and trying to thin out the terrans tank line by making science vessels etc. only "recently" around 2009 did P start doing the style of making gateways in every corner of the map possible so you can flank, remax more reliably Sorry, no. Protoss taking another main, regardless of what build they opened with, had been common for years prior to that. In fact, one of the most infamous matches of all time, fOru vs. NaDa from 2002 is known specifically for the fact that fOru built ~55 gates on the map, taking both of the other mains. This was already a known and accepted approach to PvT back then. Anyway, don't you have more important things to be doing right now? | ||
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
I don't see many tricks that makes Jangbi different from the rest. I agree with quiz that he is the best PvT ever but not because of any trick in particular. I 'm not sure the ones listed are tricks he discovered and he used that none else was aware of. What sets him appart from the rest is that he is(was) just better at the every important apsect of the game: a crafty player, a mechanical monster with incredible eco/macro managment, superior game sense and micro, I mean, he is The Almighty aaamrite, nothing cartoonish about his nickname. Storm like the above is not a trick (!!), it's a prowess, anyone who can attack like that constantly may very well be able to completely replace arbiter tech with "that", I'm not sure tho, but it sounds logical to me right now. If can't do "that" (you, me and everyone else), it seems that storm should be later aided with Arbiter or Carrier, and that's where things get complicated. The way I see it, it's just hard to pull off. But recently I've been thinking I should practice it because pre stasis pushes are very deadly sometimes, 4 zealot shuttle is just not enough. Overall a very nice debate we are having here My conclusion on the matter: Jangbi is awesome | ||
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