EPTReps:
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ZvP Beating double gateway in their main?
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
Reps: Rep 1 Rep 2 | ||
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Q~Bert
United States663 Posts
I am not going to watch the reps and answer every possible scenario out there but if you'd like to edit your post and ask more specific questions I can answer accordingly. | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
Is Zerg your main race? I would really recommend using Overlord -> pool -> Expo in most games since it is a very well-rounded opener and gives you a lot of options versus whatever Toss throws at you. A lot of this comes down to simply having a strong opening since 2 gate Zealot rush is very lateral and dead simple to counter. | ||
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
On May 10 2019 12:39 GunSlinger wrote: Well since you took the time to post some replays, I did watch the first 4-5 minutes of each. I don't know a nice way to say this, so I will just say that [9 Hatch expo -> Pool] is not a viable BO against Toss, thinking long term and factoring higher levels of play here. I am not going to bother explaining why because that is not the topic. If you go [9 Pool -> Ling Speed], you have technically countered Zealot rush... taking the third base and all that was where things went wrong in the other rep. Is Zerg your main race? I would really recommend using Overlord -> pool -> Expo in most games since it is a very well-rounded opener and gives you a lot of options versus whatever Toss throws at you. A lot of this comes down to simply having a strong opening since 2 gate Zealot rush is very lateral and dead simple to counter. Yes, Zerg is my main. C-B level. 10 hatch, not 9. What it does is gets your hatchery finished early so you can plant a creep colony earlier if they 2 gateway from the middle of the map. It also is less likely/never blocked by a scouting probe, and harder to canon rush than a 12 hatch. Anyway, assume overpool. 1) What is your first gas timing? 2) When do you take a third? 3) Do you go for mutas or hydras? 4) Ling speed? Before Lair? The difficult thing about the match is that they can easily deny counter attacks and information by blocking their ramp and keeping tech/extra units far back from the ramp and out of vision. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2032 Posts
On May 10 2019 12:39 GunSlinger wrote: Well since you took the time to post some replays, I did watch the first 4-5 minutes of each. I don't know a nice way to say this, so I will just say that [9 Hatch expo -> Pool] is not a viable BO against Toss, thinking long term and factoring higher levels of play here. I am not going to bother explaining why because that is not the topic. If you go [9 Pool -> Ling Speed], you have technically countered Zealot rush... taking the third base and all that was where things went wrong in the other rep. Is Zerg your main race? I would really recommend using Overlord -> pool -> Expo in most games since it is a very well-rounded opener and gives you a lot of options versus whatever Toss throws at you. A lot of this comes down to simply having a strong opening since 2 gate Zealot rush is very lateral and dead simple to counter. Careful with feedback from TL, I believe 9 pool speed is the worst build zerg can have vs 2 gate zealot pressure. At the same time I agree that going 9 hath -> gas trick -> 10 pool -> gas is not the best ZvP build in general, but is probably the best counter to 2 gate zealot as you'll get so many lings with speed. Some high level protoss to confirm though. As for playing vs 2 gate: - keep on making zerglings non stop for as long as you can establish a sunken - make 1 or 2 sunkens (as one might have to be canceled if protoss targets it) as soon as you get creep in your natural, this of course depends on the micro battle. If you were able to kill 1 zealot for free you can probably hold without sunkens, but in general making 1 sunken is always a good idea as it will allow you to make 3 drones rather than 6 lings. - if you hold initial 3 zealots, care for 7 and 11 zealots pushes and adjust accordingly - your follow up should be either zergling speed or fast muta, as this is most painful for a 2 gate protoss. I don't recommened going 2 hath or 3 hath hydra as toss will most likely invest in 1-2 canons with a lot of zealots and that is a good defence vs hydra - get your 3rd as soon as he expands or you eat his zealots. It's ok to stay 2 base if protoss wants to tech up from 1 base | ||
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
On May 10 2019 17:39 kogeT wrote: Careful with feedback from TL, I believe 9 pool speed is the worst build zerg can have vs 2 gate zealot pressure. At the same time I agree that going 9 hath -> gas trick -> 10 pool -> gas is not the best ZvP build in general, but is probably the best counter to 2 gate zealot as you'll get so many lings with speed. Some high level protoss to confirm though. As for playing vs 2 gate: - keep on making zerglings non stop for as long as you can establish a sunken - make 1 or 2 sunkens (as one might have to be canceled if protoss targets it) as soon as you get creep in your natural, this of course depends on the micro battle. If you were able to kill 1 zealot for free you can probably hold without sunkens, but in general making 1 sunken is always a good idea as it will allow you to make 3 drones rather than 6 lings. - if you hold initial 3 zealots, care for 7 and 11 zealots pushes and adjust accordingly - your follow up should be either zergling speed or fast muta, as this is most painful for a 2 gate protoss. I don't recommened going 2 hath or 3 hath hydra as toss will most likely invest in 1-2 canons with a lot of zealots and that is a good defence vs hydra - get your 3rd as soon as he expands or you eat his zealots. It's ok to stay 2 base if protoss wants to tech up from 1 base Do you main as Zerg or Protoss? Either way do you happen to have any reps of Zerg winning in this situation? | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
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SCWes
Canada74 Posts
On May 11 2019 09:52 Dazed. wrote: i just continue with either my normal overpool or 11 pool, but i add a sunken and cut drone production. Any replays? | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
I believe 9 pool speed is the worst build zerg can have vs 2 gate zealot pressure. Lol... | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
Assuming Overpool, build Lings for as long as you see that your opponent is making Zealots. You have Ovies to scout; it is important to use them to get vision of the Toss base and keep an eye on Zealot production. If you see them building a lot of Pylons and Zealots, prepare for the all-in by making Sunken(s) while building Lings still. At this point a third Hatch won't really be an option unless you plan on delaying everything. Try to sneak a couple of Zerglings into the enemy base, as it is always a good thing to force at least one Zealot to stay home and defend, or they will lose mining time at the very least. These Lings can provide amazing harass by just staying alive in the enemy base. After your defenses have been tended to. Usually getting Lair tech and Zergling speed will be the way to go. But if the Toss throws away his army, then ending the game with Hydras becomes an obvious course of action. A decent player will not just throw all his Zealots away, and if they sit outside your main to contain you, do not waste time and start getting Lair tech. Hydras will not cut it in the mid-game and neither will staying on pure Ling. The ultimate goal is to get Mutas of course, but Lurkers can work just as well in certain situations. The big difference being that you will go for a contain on the Toss, rather than trying to harass with your Mutas and find easy pick-offs to slow them down as you work up to your killing blow. With all that being said, it is very important you see if they are still building Zealots. At any point you must be ready to fend off the Zealot attack. The next step for the Protoss will either be teching up or taking their natural expansion. Scouting information is valuable at this point, try to make sure your Overlords are in good spots to see these two things. If it looks like they are going for Corsair, then 3 Hatch Hydra is a very strong and safe answer. It will allow you to transition into a more modern style of play as well. Try to contain them in their one base, eventually their lack of gas will become a huge issue and they will starve. Taking a third base in this situation is not as pressing of a matter as it may seem. In the modern meta-game Zerg are used to being on 3 bases, but the Protoss only started on one base and did not tech in this scenario. The whole dynamic of one base Toss is different from a fast expanding Toss. The only reason you should really feel compelled to take a third is when the Protoss has taken a second base and it is clear that you will not be able to end the game on 2 base. This kind of decision-making will have to come from experience in playing against that type of BO specifically. EDIT - Sorry, I got a little carried away. Let me answer your questions: 1. The gas timing is not anything concrete as much as it is a reaction. You need to make an assessment of how safe you are at that point in the game. If you are safe (keeping in mind you should have Overlord watching their base as I mentioned) and have started building up your economy, take gas. If you see them either trying to setup for expo or taking their own gas, take your gas immediately. Taking your gas too soon and not having enough minerals to buy Lings can lose you the game. 2. Moot. 3 + 4. If the Protoss has thrown away Zealots without doing any real damage, a Hydra bust to end the game becomes an option. But I mean, they really have to fuck up to allow you that much breathing room. Generally, since you have so many Zerglings already, you can rely on them to be your fighting force as you go for Lair tech. I like to start Lair before I go for Zergling speed most of the time, and I will simply defend with the Lings until I see an opportunity. If you calculate that your Lings will do damage (maybe he greedily put down a Nexus with only a ball of Zealots to defend it) you can rush speed and start Lair after. The sooner you have Lair, the sooner you have Mutas, and those are what you want ideally. Something to keep in mind: dealing with Corsair in this scenario is a little more tricky than "standard play", since your Spire will be plenty behind a Stargate if the Toss chooses that route. But as long as Protoss is on 1 base and you are on 2, don't feel rushed and wait for them to show a vulnerability. Remember, they started with a rush, and naturally they will have to stop leaning on you at some point in order to stabilize themselves for the mid-game. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2032 Posts
? So you are saying that 9 pool speed is a great build vs 2 gate from main? :-) Your eco is dead, protoss can just wait for 5-9 zealots and you are super behind in everything. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: I'd like to add that if protoss has better micro than you, 2 gate can often win game even if you know how to hold so it's ok to lose to it occasionally. | ||
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Q~Bert
United States663 Posts
You are clearly a low level player since you believe that 2 gate is some type of all in - especially when the gates are placed in the main. In your defense, you may believe this because low level players lack the ability to transition effectively depending on gameflow. Regardless, to 'Lol' at a player's opinion who is most likely, at minimum, 700 mmr higher than you is the real Lol here. Koget is right to say 9pool speed is the worst build. You may effectively deal with the zealots in the early moments with ease due to your tech but in no way will you be able to efficiently transition out of it without becoming further and further behind economically. If any experienced protoss player saw you 9pool speed versus their 2 gate they would just expand while continuing to pump probes and zealots and once they have their expo secured they would send out their 10 zealots and crush you. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2257 Posts
u will have trouble with overpool vs scout first if the protoss gets lucky, he will deny ur hatchery and make it impossible to build sunkens at your exp but thats just how it is. 2gate is very micro intensive so DO NOT WASTE zerglings on narrow chokes and shit like that. protoss will try to expand at arround 9 zealots, keep an eye on his expo timing, most of the time protoss will get gas before forge so his sairs won't get delayed after the 2 gate openning, after 9 zealot -> expo, game becomes just normal for protoss but zergs will be delayed on tech, try to catch up. | ||
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GunSlinger
614 Posts
On May 13 2019 08:23 Q~Bert wrote: You are clearly a low level player since you believe that 2 gate is some type of all in - especially when the gates are placed in the main. In your defense, you may believe this because low level players lack the ability to transition effectively depending on gameflow. Regardless, to 'Lol' at a player's opinion who is most likely, at minimum, 700 mmr higher than you is the real Lol here. Koget is right to say 9pool speed is the worst build. You may effectively deal with the zealots in the early moments with ease due to your tech but in no way will you be able to efficiently transition out of it without becoming further and further behind economically. If any experienced protoss player saw you 9pool speed versus their 2 gate they would just expand while continuing to pump probes and zealots and once they have their expo secured they would send out their 10 zealots and crush you. I love that you are talking about me as if you know anything about me. Again, all I can respond with is "lol". If you cannot micro Lings and play aggressively while being intelligent about it, then don't 9 Pool Speed. | ||
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Q~Bert
United States663 Posts
On May 13 2019 10:59 GunSlinger wrote: I love that you are talking about me as if you know anything about me. Again, all I can respond with is "lol". If you cannot micro Lings and play aggressively while being intelligent about it, then don't 9 Pool Speed. MMR? | ||
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kogeT
Poland2032 Posts
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