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ZvT Replay/Help beating 5 factory +1 Goliath?

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SCWes Canada74 Posts February 19 2019 09:39 GMT #1 I am having a really difficult time dealing with mass goliath play. There are several varations of it like, 11Rax expand into 5 factory, factory expand into mass goliath, 1-1-1 into mass goliath. Basically they show up at 9-10 minutes with 12x-15x +1 plating goliaths. Sometimes it's a mix of goliaths and valks. I lose every time. I feel like I have experimented with several combinations of units, but I can't hold. I even tried using ensnare, only to find out it doesn't affect a goliath's rate of fire (bummer). I could use some major help.

Highgamer 1470 Posts February 19 2019 12:43 GMT #2 People can help you best if you provide a replay. Otherwise it always ends in general theorycrafting and not in detailed, useful advice for you. (But if that is not an option for you: ) Do you know about the search function? It's at the top right, right above the Live Events. See what I found at first try by typing in "mass goliath": https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/525298-how-the-fuck-do-i-beat-mass-goliath L_Master answered in that thread among others, you might want to check it out. All the general advice you need is in there. You can beat it with mutas, hydras - and most of all good macro.

kogeT Poland2042 Posts February 19 2019 15:03 GMT #3 It all comes down to scouting in right time what your opponent is doing. Assuming you know that he is doing it 100%, you can go any kind of abusive stuff like: 1) Mass hydra, i mean really like 4-5 hath hydra with a 3rd with very late lair 2) Sunkens are very good vs goliaths and mutas are very good to counterattack at the same time 3) Hive rush, swarm + hydra or swarm + lurker etc is really good 4) Lurkers are supprisingly good vs goliaths, ofc not in the middle of the map with no support (especially good that 5 fact goliaths delays scans and vessel A LOT, so you can buy a lot of time with single lurkers) 5) Use counter attack tactics as much as you can. Goliaths army is immobile and ineffecient in low numbers. You can't defend with 3-5 goliaths same as with few marines and medic on a ramp. 6) You can also try mass muta, especially if you have a good opening where you get your 3rd gas very fast 7) If you have some lings left, it may be good to research burrow. They are great for scouting as terran won't have any detection for ages At the same time, really avoid: 1) Fighting this army in the open (unless with mass hydra adventage), as you'll always bleed a lot of units due to range and AI of goliaths 2) Avoid zerglings before hive/swarm 3) Avoid overaggresion, as goliaths are really good at defending 4) Avoid overproducting units too early, healthy economy with lots of drones is key vs this

Dazed. Canada3301 Posts February 19 2019 16:40 GMT #4 my usual response against mech is to go muta and drone whore up to about 7-8 hatcheries and switch hard hard hard into hydras. Obviously your mutas should see factory and unit count and if the push is coming too quickly for that, just cut drone and hatchery production and start hydras earlier. Ya gotta remember 2 base mech timings are semi all in against zerg.

iFU.pauline France1722 Posts February 19 2019 17:14 GMT #5 The nice thing about mech is that there is no standard way to beat it, really anything can work, from early mass ling, to mass hydra, I like to make muta ling with +1 carap air until I secure third base then you can transition to whatever is needed, I think what is important is to not let terran guess your army count too easily (thinking you don't produce anything else than muta would incite him to go out while in fact you have 3 groups of lings waiting), for example try to rally point your units in a place where he is less likely to scan. Trick him by making some hydralisk so he makes tank but then you make muta stuff like that.

Anc13nt 1557 Posts February 21 2019 01:50 GMT #6 I don't have very much good advice since I don't play against mech very often but I would say if you are going 3 hatch muta against mech, do not commit too heavily to muta harass because mech terran has very good anti air. You might be able to kill some stray goliaths and SCVs early on when goliath/turret count is low but eventually they will have enough anti air to the point where harassing will not be cost effective. This is even more true if they're going valkyrie. Also, if they are making valkyries, I think it is better to mass hydra than mass muta to make since mass muta will get owned by a few valkyries. Otherwise, mass muta is fine if they're just making factory units. Also, when it comes to engaging against mech with mass hydra, it is very important to attack them with a large arc because one bad engagement can cost the game when it comes to fighting mech. You can prepare for the push by spreading out the hydra army in to the shape of an arc to make this easier. Lastly, I think off 5 hatches, it is possible to have control group of muta and around 30 hydras at 9-10 minutes which is enough to beat the 12-15 +1 goliath even with a few tanks and valkyries. If they have valkyries, unstack your mutas to make the valkyries less effective. If you win the fight, expand and try to take over the map while attempting to deny their third if possible. It's usually a bad idea to try to finish off the terran player after beating their push because high ground tanks are very strong against hydras.

Ej_ 47656 Posts February 22 2019 12:49 GMT #7 ZerO made a guide on how to beat 5fact gols (KR obv)

koreasilver 9109 Posts February 23 2019 16:51 GMT #8 I came here just to post Zero's guide. The summary of his guide is: 1. Once you scout that the Terran is going straight-mech, do the standard 3hatch muta variant against mech (early sunken, hydra den sim city, 2-3 hydras). 2. After your first 9 mutas, start air carapace +1 and take your third (air carapace +2 should be started immediately after +1 finishes). 3. Zero says to take your fourth quickly, and that this is the standard response against mech. Zero doesn't actually get this done because some well-placed vultures keep assassinating the drones he sends, and only manages to plant his fourth after defending against the first goliath push. 4. The key role of your first mutas is not to fight the Terran's units, but to harass and force the Terran into a defensive position to contain their units while you drone up. Watch how Zero only uses his gas on mutalisks and pretty much spends all of his leftover minerals in drones and sunkens. When he brings his mutalisks into the Terran's base he doesn't fight the goliaths at all, and only snipes at SCVs while avoiding damage as much as he can. 5. After fending off the first goliath attack on his third, Zero goes into the Terran's main partly to take advantage of winning a battle and having a superior army, but also to scout. What he particularly is looking for is whether or not the Terran has built a starport to tech into a science facility. Why? Because if the Terran is teching in such a way, that means the Terran is planning to go into a heavier upgrade route looking to take the match into the lategame. But the Terran is not teching and instead building more factories, signalling that he is trying to go for an all-in timing attack. 5.a) Zero notes: one should begin to prepare for a hydra tech-switch if you see the Terran teching with the starport. He says that it's fine to stick with only mutas if the Terran is sticking with a goliath timing attack. Nevertheless, as his third becomes saturated and his fourth finishes, Zero adds on macro hatches and begins hydra upgrades and ranged +1. 6. Knowing that he is in an advantageous position, and the Terran is going for an all-in, Zero just keeps making mutalisks with his gas, drones + sunkens with extra minerals, and attacks the Terran's main. Seeing that the Terran's army has already left to attack him, he sacks the main, builds more sunkens, and lets the Terran kill his fourth (which didn't have drones anyway). 7. He swings back his attacking muta force, and when the Terran presses an attack into his nat sunkens Zero simply covers the all-in goliath army with the mutas. The Terran GGs. 8. Supplementary note: in response to a question from his chat, Zero says not to bother making lings at all against mech in the early stages because without good upgrades zerglings are useless--"like hitting a rock with eggs". He says its better to just drone up and make sunkens.

GunSlinger 614 Posts February 23 2019 17:17 GMT #9 I just want to say thank you for translating!

Jukado 805 Posts February 23 2019 19:55 GMT #10 Thats how you do a 4 year comeback... koreasilver, good to see you Zero confirming what I wrote in my guide here: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/513900-zvt-how-to-play-vs-pure-mech

Zaibakk 101 Posts February 24 2019 18:45 GMT #11 Remember that, in theory, pure hydra is the best counter to pure goliath IF you engage perfectly (that is if all hydras can attack). But yeah, muta are good from a strategic point of view to harrass his base and keep his liaths at main while you macro a lot and take 3th/4th/5th exps. I think 11 muta are enough, then just macro and pump hydra nonstop. Eventually make queens/lings later into the mix to handle tanks.

burbont Poland2 Posts March 28 2019 01:44 GMT #12 If you go pure hydra early, tanks and you're dead

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