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Hi~ I'm a P user, rank C+ ~ B- in iCCup.
(I watch korean progamers' streams almost everyday, but since they usually play/practice with those standard build-orders, I cannot figure out the answer myself.)
Usually my PvZ game is opened with a Forge Fast Expansion, into +1sair/+1speedlot, to pressure a "3-Hatch spire into 5-Hatch Hydra" (Neo Sauron) Zerg. And if the Zerg holds (or does not take much damage), I'll go HT and then observer, and prepare to go into a mid~late game.
But I am wondering, if my Zerg opponent decides to go greedy after seeing my forge_FE opening, such as 4-Hatch then lair, or even 5-Hatch into hydra-den (without lair for quite a long time), is there a way for me to punish such greediness?
Currently, my thoughts and experience are:
1. If I still do my regular build order (+1sair / +1speedlot), then the zerg's greediness is not punished, and he will have better economy and more army than a Neo Sauron would have when I push out.
2. should I build 2nd Stargate for more/faster corsair production? but since the Zerg would still have some hydras protecting his overlords (both at his 2nd and 3rd base, on Fighting_spirit), I don't find this method effective either.
3. ......
Any thoughts? Thanks~
One other related question is:
There was once when my Zerg opponent went 3-base 5-Hatch without gas, (with only some lings and a few sunkens, then mass drones before going any tech). But my zealots still cannot punish him... I feel there must be something wrong...but I can't tell 
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+1 4 gate speedzealot without corsair
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Corsairs are always great when overlord speed is late and there are no spire. But I think 2 stargates works better when zerg has invested to lair and spire. Obviously zerg is keeping most his overlords with his hydras at 2nd and 3rd base, but you can keep the air clear of ovos from pretty much everywhere else with one stargate and create routes for shuttle harrass. Many zerg prepare for DT drops by building a spore in their main when playing this style, so you can try to elevate few zealots as well to snipe the spore.
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A zerg with a good simcity is going to be difficult/impossible to punish with a +1 speedlot timing. Use your sairs/probe to scout the situation and once you've identified the lair/gas are later than normal you need to switch your build up. Keep in mind while he's massing drones he isn't massing units, so you can use this time while you have map control to take a faster 3rd instead of trying (and failing) to do damage. Against hydra/ling psi storm is a must so don't forgo teching towards it quickly. Cut some units to get a faster 3rd and use the sairs you have to pressure overlords and keep the zerg in the dark.
TL;DR I think your focusing too much on needing to damage the zerg. If he looks able to defend your aggression it's better to sit back, save your army, and play the economy game against him instead of fighting a battle you will lose.
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Corsair DT, take free expand. Then just standard play, zealot/dragoon/high templar. If he skips spire at lair, do plenty of drops.
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On May 15 2017 04:06 Bakuryu wrote:
+1 4 gate speedzealot without corsair
how do you handle the muta threat later on then (providing u dont kill zerg outright which i think its hard if both around similar level)?
transit into double stargate? or maelstorm i guess could work.
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On May 15 2017 04:06 Bakuryu wrote:
+1 4 gate speedzealot without corsair
This ~
but don't do it to me, plz
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On May 15 2017 07:13 B-royal wrote:
Corsair DT, take free expand. Then just standard play, zealot/dragoon/high templar. If he skips spire at lair, do plenty of drops.
I play 5 hatch before gas quite a bit, and honestly I almost always kill protoss that try and do this. Taking a third super quick leaves protoss with precious few units to defend when a boatload of hydras show up at 8:00. I'd be curious to hear how protoss should defend that.
On May 15 2017 04:06 Bakuryu wrote:
+1 4 gate speedzealot without corsair
Yea, this seems pretty strong against that. I assume the reason this isn't as good against standard 3 hat spire is because muta is a common response?
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On May 15 2017 11:30 HaFnium wrote:how do you handle the muta threat later on then (providing u dont kill zerg outright which i think its hard if both around similar level)? transit into double stargate? or maelstorm i guess could work.
the same way like you always do it, but if the "muta threat" comes later, then your "anti muta strat" also comes later.
On May 15 2017 14:21 L_Master wrote:Yea, this seems pretty strong against that. I assume the reason this isn't as good against standard 3 hat spire is because muta is a common response?
you normally dont see a +1 4 gate speedzeal build against 3 hatch spire because if zerg defends the zealot attack, the protoss is not in a position to combat the muta - lurker tech switches, because he delays the 2nd gas to get the 4th gate going. against 3 hatch spire you can play +1 3 gate speedzeal, the earlier 2nd gas allows for an easy 2 star or archon/cannon followup (your zealot attack is weaker than the 4 gate version, but less "all in" because you can catch up in tech units).
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As L_Master said, corsair DT into quick 3rd rarely works. Your giving up the map control for long time and even if you get your third running up, by the time you're ready to move into the map again, zerg has lurkers and got you pretty much contained untill your main and natural are mined out.
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Russian Federation382 Posts
listen bakuruy, he is 4hatch build master 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Qo7wVzY.jpg)
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Going straight into robo is another option. Shuttle speed + reaver harass to abuse late spire/no spire and reavers to defend any bust attempt by the zerg. Transition based on what you see with harass.
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1st though : abuse dt/sair since there is no overlord speed/+1 air armor/spire. It's probably the safest (not the ''strongest'') play.
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any +5 gateways counter late lair.
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Great meme idegelchik. And bakuryu is gosu so listen to him.
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this does not work if zerg takes 3rd on a natural expo
open sair/dt, do not lose sairs, trasition into 6 gate zea/ht, then skip 3rd, and add goons/ob. keep him on 3 bases, contain him outside his bridges, now he can't break out, so u take 3rd and quick 4th... take care of drops and scout with sair for hidden expos, then starve him to death. this works for me cause my pvz strategy is to never let zerg take 4th gas, if i let him do that i just quit, no point in playing vs 4 gas zerg late game, unless i have a big lead.
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I think as Bakaryu stated it would be best to just 4gate +1, although I would just take a fast 3rd and outmacro the Zerg and build extra cannons. The Zerg taking late gas means you can take a really easy 3rd and just outmacro the Zerg easily.
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On May 24 2017 15:36 XenOsky- wrote:
this does not work if zerg takes 3rd on a natural expo
open sair/dt, do not lose sairs, trasition into 6 gate zea/ht, then skip 3rd, and add goons/ob. keep him on 3 bases, contain him outside his bridges, now he can't break out, so u take 3rd and quick 4th... take care of drops and scout with sair for hidden expos, then starve him to death. this works for me cause my pvz strategy is to never let zerg take 4th gas, if i let him do that i just quit, no point in playing vs 4 gas zerg late game, unless i have a big lead.
That's an odd thing to do.
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Thanks for all the advice above~!
I think I'l start with Bakuryu's "+1 4 gate speedzealot without corsair" route first.
(I don't think corsair+dt harass will do any good, since the Zerg could just hold his 5~6 hydra with 2~3ovs at his 2rd and 3rd base, while gaining the eco advantage.)
But then, to switch to the "without corsair" build, I suppose I would have to make sure my scouting probe stay alive for long enuf (at least 'till the point that I make BY, and see if the zerg doing Lair at that time or not?)
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Mass units on 2 base by adding more gates. Dont expo because the zerg can wreck you since he has more money for the army because he didnt tech.
Then see if hes going for a huge army allin. If he is, wait for a few ht and mass zealots, then push out. Storms own this type of zerg play.
If hes not producing that many units you can slightly delay templar archives in favor of more gates and zealots, and do an earlier push like Bakuryu suggested.
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EPT
