I know there was another thread on this, but that was more or less just a bunch of players sharing their hotkey system.
I've been having problems with my hotkey system lately, and so I'm trying to find a good way to revise it.
I hotkey my main nexus to 0, then my scout to 9. This way I can switch between the two without moving my whole hand (a lot of players use 1/2 for their scout).
I then use 5-8 for my first few gates, and I used to use 9 for my robo as it's right next to o for obs, but I'm finding that it's more important to hotkey my nat nexus to 9 so I can keep probe production up.
Later on, I end up overwriting my gate hotkeys with units, as the way I hotkey units results in me having many groups not totally full. I think it's more important to have a good unit spread across the middle of the map than to have full groups to save on hotkeys. This results in me not being able to double-tap a hotkey to go back to my gates, not to mention rallying lots of gates late game when I'm adding my 10th+ gates and need to rally them all somewhere I run out of hotkeys to use.
So, I've gotten so frustrated trying to figure out a new system on my own, so I'm looking for some input.
Do I need to hotkey my robo? Should I hotkey my first three nexuses (sp.?)? Or is hotkeying my first two just fine?
I like to hotkey my robo for PvP and in some PvT games, but not for PvZ.
I like to hotkey all my nexus if I'm going to make a lot of probes, but otherwise I only hotkey 1 or 2 of them.
When I need to mass rally, I usually just use hotkeys temporarily. For example, with 5 free hotkeys and 12 gateways, I'll hotkey 5 gates, rally, hotkey another 5 gates, rally, hotkey last 2 gates, rally.
So do you overwrite other hotkeyed units and buildings, mass rally, and then re-hotkey the other things? Or do you really have that many hotkeys free during the game? I think I use almost all of my hotkeys.
I'm going to start trying to use shift+F2-4 for gate clusters.
i would advise you to build your robo next to your nexus, so you can double hit your nexus and easily build an observer. (i could be mistaken, but for me it works quite well). In lategame i like to to use all my hotkeys for units (except 2-3 nexus, depends) with execption of only one which is hotkeyed to a pylon or a gate because i always try to have as many gates as possible on one screen in order to save time. due to his fact i always try to build one centre pylon which works quite well for me
During this stage, the most important thing is for you to get warmed up. 0 for nexus is good, but I suggest you fill ALL of your blank hotkeys with nexus, just to get started. A few professional gamers used this system; I know Midas[gm] had. Now, when you send your probe out to build / scout, I suggest you hotkey probe to a "far" hotkey such as 1 or 2. The reason for this is to get a feel for moving your hand around the keyboard which I find necessary for later game. also, if you use a separate probe for building instead of sending it to scout (I.E. scouter after 8), then hotkey THAT builder probe to 3 or 4, just so it's easier to switch screens. hotkey gateway wherever you feel you'll start using buildings. I personally use 4-8 because I use 1-3 for units and important observers. The choice is up to you, but make sure you use a hotkey that will NOT interfere with units (I.E. hotkey a gateway to 2 while using 1 and 3 for units). Also, I recommend using 9 and 0 for nexus because it's CRUCIAL to keep a constant probe production early game and switch screens to send workers to mine. Later when you get a robotics, replace 0 with robotics, because I find it's also necessary to make observers at a constant rate.
Summary of Early/Mid game hotkeys: Separate your units and buildings wisely. Example: 1-3 units, 4-8 gates, 9 nexus 0 nexus, switch 0 robotics.
Late Game
At this point, you'll need more hotkeys for units. Most likely, you'll have slots 1-4 or 1-5 for the necessary control of mass units. Make sure, however, that you separate wireframes according to units. Sometimes, it's ok like mixing goons with temps, or if you're at that stage where you're fighting your opponent at a rapid pace playing micro/macro wars. ideally, you wanna keep your zeals / obs separate from goons / temps however. One exception I find to this rule is playing against a vulture-harass opponent where you'll need to use an obs with your goons occasionally and quickly. Do not neglect to macro too, though! I'd use whatever spare hotkey down to 0 for gateways for quick 6z7d8z9d0z etc..
Summary of Late game hotkeys: Remember, unit management becomes important, but macro is as well!. Example. 1 Goon/temp 2 goon 3 goon 4 zeal 5 zeal 6-0 gateways.
When I play protoss I copy Reach's hotkeys. They might seem really strange, but they work fairly well. They're pretty common, I guess.
He puts his nex on 890, and uses most of his hotkeys for gateways. Army is partly mouse controlled - emphasis on macro.
I think the majority of progamers prefer hotkeying production buildings over hotkeying entire army lategame, and instead rely on their superior mouse speed and accuracy to control their armies.
i used to do 0 nexus 1234 units 567 gates and then 9 as my scout which later becomes second nexus and 8 as 3rd nexus or scout when i do double nex, but its a really inferior setup try starting: 12 units 3 scout 4 nex 567890 gateways (who really needs to hotkey anything else)
then later 123 units 4 nex and f2 - f4 for other nexuses 567890 gateways
then in late game 1234 units 567890 gateways, heck maybe even 12345 units, but with so many gateways hotkeyed you should be focusing alot more on fighting and thus being maxed all the time wont be as likely
when i use a shuttle i like to hotkey it to 3 or 4
On March 17 2007 15:10 ilovezil wrote: Here is my suggested hotkey system for protoss:
Beginning Game - Mid game
During this stage, the most important thing is for you to get warmed up. 0 for nexus is good, but I suggest you fill ALL of your blank hotkeys with nexus, just to get started. A few professional gamers used this system; I know Midas[gm] had. Now, when you send your probe out to build / scout, I suggest you hotkey probe to a "far" hotkey such as 1 or 2. The reason for this is to get a feel for moving your hand around the keyboard which I find necessary for later game. also, if you use a separate probe for building instead of sending it to scout (I.E. scouter after 8), then hotkey THAT builder probe to 3 or 4, just so it's easier to switch screens. hotkey gateway wherever you feel you'll start using buildings. I personally use 4-8 because I use 1-3 for units and important observers. The choice is up to you, but make sure you use a hotkey that will NOT interfere with units (I.E. hotkey a gateway to 2 while using 1 and 3 for units). Also, I recommend using 9 and 0 for nexus because it's CRUCIAL to keep a constant probe production early game and switch screens to send workers to mine. Later when you get a robotics, replace 0 with robotics, because I find it's also necessary to make observers at a constant rate.
Summary of Early/Mid game hotkeys: Separate your units and buildings wisely. Example: 1-3 units, 4-8 gates, 9 nexus 0 nexus, switch 0 robotics.
Late Game
At this point, you'll need more hotkeys for units. Most likely, you'll have slots 1-4 or 1-5 for the necessary control of mass units. Make sure, however, that you separate wireframes according to units. Sometimes, it's ok like mixing goons with temps, or if you're at that stage where you're fighting your opponent at a rapid pace playing micro/macro wars. ideally, you wanna keep your zeals / obs separate from goons / temps however. One exception I find to this rule is playing against a vulture-harass opponent where you'll need to use an obs with your goons occasionally and quickly. Do not neglect to macro too, though! I'd use whatever spare hotkey down to 0 for gateways for quick 6z7d8z9d0z etc..
Summary of Late game hotkeys: Remember, unit management becomes important, but macro is as well!. Example. 1 Goon/temp 2 goon 3 goon 4 zeal 5 zeal 6-0 gateways.
EDIT: this is more geared towards PvT.
I like your ideas, but I have to ask: why do you hotkey everything to your nexus? I saw Artosis do this at the NH LAN and I meant to ask him why he does it before I left.
On March 17 2007 15:10 ilovezil wrote: Here is my suggested hotkey system for protoss:
Beginning Game - Mid game
During this stage, the most important thing is for you to get warmed up. 0 for nexus is good, but I suggest you fill ALL of your blank hotkeys with nexus, just to get started. A few professional gamers used this system; I know Midas[gm] had. Now, when you send your probe out to build / scout, I suggest you hotkey probe to a "far" hotkey such as 1 or 2. The reason for this is to get a feel for moving your hand around the keyboard which I find necessary for later game. also, if you use a separate probe for building instead of sending it to scout (I.E. scouter after 8), then hotkey THAT builder probe to 3 or 4, just so it's easier to switch screens. hotkey gateway wherever you feel you'll start using buildings. I personally use 4-8 because I use 1-3 for units and important observers. The choice is up to you, but make sure you use a hotkey that will NOT interfere with units (I.E. hotkey a gateway to 2 while using 1 and 3 for units). Also, I recommend using 9 and 0 for nexus because it's CRUCIAL to keep a constant probe production early game and switch screens to send workers to mine. Later when you get a robotics, replace 0 with robotics, because I find it's also necessary to make observers at a constant rate.
Summary of Early/Mid game hotkeys: Separate your units and buildings wisely. Example: 1-3 units, 4-8 gates, 9 nexus 0 nexus, switch 0 robotics.
Late Game
At this point, you'll need more hotkeys for units. Most likely, you'll have slots 1-4 or 1-5 for the necessary control of mass units. Make sure, however, that you separate wireframes according to units. Sometimes, it's ok like mixing goons with temps, or if you're at that stage where you're fighting your opponent at a rapid pace playing micro/macro wars. ideally, you wanna keep your zeals / obs separate from goons / temps however. One exception I find to this rule is playing against a vulture-harass opponent where you'll need to use an obs with your goons occasionally and quickly. Do not neglect to macro too, though! I'd use whatever spare hotkey down to 0 for gateways for quick 6z7d8z9d0z etc..
Summary of Late game hotkeys: Remember, unit management becomes important, but macro is as well!. Example. 1 Goon/temp 2 goon 3 goon 4 zeal 5 zeal 6-0 gateways.
EDIT: this is more geared towards PvT.
I like your ideas, but I have to ask: why do you hotkey everything to your nexus? I saw Artosis do this at the NH LAN and I meant to ask him why he does it before I left.
I consider the reason simple. My reasoning is because this way, even your spare hotkeys will be used for something, and something is always better than nothing. Also, when you're hotkeying other stuff, you'll still have many spare hotkeys around so you can instantly go back to nexus (which is crucial early - mid game). All in all, it's simply better to have SOMETHING on your hotkeys than nothing.
I thought I was the only one who ran my finger across my keyboard to set nexus to everything at the start of the game ;; Anyway, I almost never hotkey my gateways, only at the beginning of the game.
Early game 1 scout probe(later first goon/zealot) 2-3 gates 4-0 nexus
Mid game 1-3 units 4 gateway 5 first nexus 6 2nd expo nexus 7 first expo nexus (I know its kind of weird but I have always done it this way ^^; 8 shuttle 9 robotics facility 0 one observer (This one is outside the choke of opponents base)
In PvT, I keep one ob in my first hotkey, which is all goons, and my other hotkeys are mixed.
Late game 1-4 units 5 special units (This is where I keep arbiters, DAs, HTs, etc.) 6 natural expo nexus (Where most of my troops are rallied) 7 last expo I took 8 shuttle 9 robotics facility 0 observer
The only F key I use is F3 for my gateways. The main downfall to my hotkeys is that I can't macro via the keyboard, but that isn't much of a big deal since I'm used to just hitting F3 anyway in the middle of battle Tt;;
Early Game 3/0nexus 2pylon 1scout probe 4-8 gateway Mid Game 1-4 units, 4 usually obs or shuttle 5-8 gateways 0/9 nexus Late Game 1-5 units 6/7/8 each a clump of gateways 0/9 nexus
Mass rally technique I use - location hotkey for gates + location hotkey for rally point (usually f2 and f4). Then f2 - click gate - f4 - right click, repeat.
The rest of hotkeys:
0-8 first three nexii, 9 and 8 used for scouting and proxying probe respectively and the beginning. 1-2 units 3 shuttle 4-5 initial gateways late game 1-5 troops, 6 shuttles.
On March 17 2007 15:01 rpf wrote: So do you overwrite other hotkeyed units and buildings, mass rally, and then re-hotkey the other things? Or do you really have that many hotkeys free during the game?
By the time I have 12 gates, I'm only concerned with keeping my units hotkeyed. It's unlikely that I'll have to "mass probe" anymore, so I don't need 3 nexus hotkeys. And I don't need a robotics hotkeyed, since I should have shuttle/obs out already, and I'd only go back to my robo on a special occassion. So it's pretty easy for me to have many hotkeys free for mass rallying like this. The only tricky part is when I have my units as 34567 or so, and then I have to hotkey the gates as 12890
anyone who put hotkeys for nexus as 1-3 is a newb.
ALWAYS hotkey your nexus as 0-9 and robo bay as 8 or 7. just look at your hands when you play. it makes NO sense to hotkey your nexus as 1 becuase of the distance required for your fingers to travel from 1 to the 'p' key on the keyboard.
hotkey gateways 4-7 becuase your pinky can then easily hit the 'z' and 'd' key while traveling back to the number keys on the top.
hmm i copied rA's hotkeys and they seem most simple to me. reach constantly overwrites his hotkeys to whatever he's focusing on at the moment which is slightly overwhelming for me. Anyways 0 for nex, 9 for nat nex, 123 for units, 4-8 for gateways. location hotkeys are also very helpful in keeping track of large amounts of gateways. Lategame I overwrite 0 and 9 for gates and depending on the amount of units i have, 4-5 for extra units.
uh flyingsnow i think you just described reach's keys. As far as I know, they basically use the same setup. Dunno about reach overwriting stuff, but I would assume they both overwrite gates at times.
putting nexus at 1-3 is not necessarily bad. You write off jangbi, nony, and others as newb, hah. Not everyone uses the p key.
Personally, I like janbi's & bisu's setup the most, but the setups vary and as long as it works and your comfortable with it its fine. I would suggest that this is where rpfs troubles lie, he does not have the consistency and speed down. So it comes down to wanting to get better and practicing.
Heyyyyyy, yeah, nexus 1-3 isn't so bad. If you use mouse to build the probe, then it doesn't matter what hotkey the nexus is. If you use your nexus hotkey to center around your nexus (like hitting 11) then it doesn't matter what hotkey probe is. Besides, let's assume that most of the time, your left hand is on the left side of the keyboard. So when you decide to build a probe, you go "move hand to the right" --> "hit 0" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". I would go "hit 1" --> "move hand to the right" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". So whenever you only have 1 nexus hotkeyed, it doesn't make a difference. And for more than 1 nexus hotkeyed, I prefer "hit 1" --> "click" --> "hit 2" --> "click" --> "hit 3" --> "click". This might be a fraction of a second slower than 0p9p8p, but if you take into account that my hand stays to the left, in its default position, the whole time, I prefer mine. Also, having your 3 nexuses hotkeyed 1 2 3 makes it easy to go 11 22 33 to check everything, and to make your probes collect when they've finished building.
and yeah, I realize that using F2 F3 F4 counters some of the arguments of using 11 22 33, etc, but they don't resolve everything. And also, my system frees F2 F3 F4 for other things.
On March 18 2007 12:15 rS.NonY wrote: Heyyyyyy, yeah, nexus 1-3 isn't so bad. If you use mouse to build the probe, then it doesn't matter what hotkey the nexus is. If you use your nexus hotkey to center around your nexus (like hitting 11) then it doesn't matter what hotkey probe is. Besides, let's assume that most of the time, your left hand is on the left side of the keyboard. So when you decide to build a probe, you go "move hand to the right" --> "hit 0" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". I would go "hit 1" --> "move hand to the right" --> "hit p" --> "move hand to the left". So whenever you only have 1 nexus hotkeyed, it doesn't make a difference. And for more than 1 nexus hotkeyed, I prefer "hit 1" --> "click" --> "hit 2" --> "click" --> "hit 3" --> "click". This might be a fraction of a second slower than 0p9p8p, but if you take into account that my hand stays to the left, in its default position, the whole time, I prefer mine. Also, having your 3 nexuses hotkeyed 1 2 3 makes it easy to go 11 22 33 to check everything, and to make your probes collect when they've finished building.
and yeah, I realize that using F2 F3 F4 counters some of the arguments of using 11 22 33, etc, but they don't resolve everything. And also, my system frees F2 F3 F4 for other things.
I see what your saying becuase i used to use this setup aswell. My contention is that all the korean progamers hold their hands a specific way. If you showed up in Korea to become a progamer and they saw you clicking on probes you'd get laughed at. You should always be hitting 0p0p0p at the start of the game and not clicking on the probe button. Your mouse will be more free to micro and if you hotkey an attacking unit as 8 or 7 early you can produce probes and even attack micro your units (using the patrol button) without moving your hands all over the keyboard. In fact, i believe korean proteams such as SK Telecom require their players to hold their hands in a very specific way.
I've seen many Korean progamers play and they all seem to do this. I've also noticed that at the WCG world finals the higher ranking protoss players hold their hands like i have explained while the ones who do not make it out of their groups use their mouse to build units.
I would also think that you would spend more time looking at your nexus or the bottom right side of the screen than watching your units or your opponents base or even the minimap assuming someone was using your method. Since your using your mouse to make probes any micro required in the instant such as microing a scouting probe away from a marine might case your probe production to be slowed down. Your method allows for a higher possiblity of delayed probe production and a higher risk of micro errors.
With this being said i have seen many sucessful players such as yourself using diffrent hand methods than the ones i have proposed. But i feel that using " 0p9p " is an overall more effeicent method than the one you have given. However i think there is a distint pattern seen in the hand positions of the overall most sucessful players in the history of the game and that cannot be ignored.
oh and by the way, at the start of the game you should always hotkey your scouting probe as 8 because this way you can easily access your nexus and your scouting probe by having your fingers on all these keys. you only use the left side of the keyboard to produce zealots and dragoons or to control large groups of units.
It's hard to argue with results. If virtually all the Koreans and top players seem to have ended up with the same hotkey system, there's got to be something to it. However the fact that most of the top players use the same system doesn't mean it's the reason they're at the top. And it certainly doesn't mean that each and every one of them have thoroughly examined all the different hotkey systems, tested them all, and ended up choosing the same one. More likely, they chose to base their system on the fact that the P is right near 0 and so they began with hotkeying a Nexus to 0 for the 0p, and then everything fell into place after that. They can't know if their system is the best overall, but at least it's not arbitrary -- they started with an intelligent decision.
While I recognize that the popular system is very good, and the use of the patrol command is a nice addition to it (though you still need to use z and d), I think there's a possibility that either there's another system that's definitely better than it, or there's another system that has different strengths (ie generally better for micro or generally better for macro), or that, in the end, all the systems are pretty much the same as handspeed (for both hands) is maxed out. In fact, this latter case is pretty much guaranteed, but nobody can ever be that fast and perfect. But perhaps people can get fast and perfect enough so that any reasonably intelligent hotkey system would be indistinguishable in their play.
Anyway, people shouldn't be discouraged from trying something simply because the trend among the top players is quite different. Revolutions in strategy come periodically, and a revolution in hotkeying could come as well. I think I have at least shown that hotkeying nexus to 1 is not entirely unreasonable. And personally, most of my losses come from poor decision making; hardly ever do I lose because I was simply too slow. That doesn't mean I couldn't be faster, but it at least means I'm doing as well as anyone in the speed department. And for how sporadically I practice, that's not bad.
On March 18 2007 12:01 Knickknack wrote: uh flyingsnow i think you just described reach's keys. As far as I know, they basically use the same setup. Dunno about reach overwriting stuff, but I would assume they both overwrite gates at times.
hmm oh opps. Well ya they do basically have the same set up I just forgot to mention that reach uses 1 as scouting probe and rA uses 2. A minute difference which is probably just based on preference. Anyways about the overwriting. This is just based on what ive seen when I get reach's hotkeys in some of the blizzcon replays. He overwrited his 1 or 2 to w/e he was focusing on at the moment.
Um, how hard is it to find out that many (and probably the majority of) pros do not do 0p or scout on8. Nexus on 4: Pusan, Stork, Bisu, Daezang, PJ, Anytime. Nexus on 3: Tempest, free, draco. Nexus on 2: asuka. Nexus on 1, Jangbi, bestgod. Nexus on 6, Tester, Sea.pure. Nexus on 7, Zeus. Etc, etc.
What exactly is this 'pro' way of holding ones hand? I recommend placing your wrist in the middle or slightly to left of the 1-0keys, so your keyboard reach is good and your pinkey is closer to shift/ctrl/z/. You can hit 1 with ring and 0p by just moving wrist. Other then that, who cares. There really is not a big difference. Guess he picked 'Reach' because he likes to reach across the keyboard unnecessarily. -.- Seriously though, not a big difference and I bet Reach could change and play just as well soon enough. The problem is that you are saying this is the optimal way to play, while nony and I would disagree or at least say that they are all so close as long as it is reasonable.
On March 18 2007 02:40 BluzMan wrote: Mass rally technique I use - location hotkey for gates + location hotkey for rally point (usually f2 and f4). Then f2 - click gate - f4 - right click, repeat.
The rest of hotkeys:
0-8 first three nexii, 9 and 8 used for scouting and proxying probe respectively and the beginning. 1-2 units 3 shuttle 4-5 initial gateways late game 1-5 troops, 6 shuttles.
7 - the monster unused hotkey.
i pretty much do the same, i learned GARIMTO's hots years ago
I really like what Tasteless and Nony have said. Tasteless told me some things about how Koreans use their keyboard and why he thinks it gives them an edge. Maybe he'd like to elaborate on it some more. It was something I thought was really cool.
Anyways, I have a question: when you guys are saying that you use 1-3 or 4 for units...seriously how can you only ever have 4 groups hotkeyed? Or are you just talking about early game? I mean, I often get up to 5 or 6 groups hotkeyed that I'm using.
Maybe I need to be spreading my units more, and leaving some not hotkeyed at important expos?
The main reason I made this thread is because the system I use early game doesn't work late game as I've overwritten some of my gates, and then I think it makes it harder to macro because I can't go "5-5" to go back to my big cluster of gates. Maybe I should try using F2-4?
On March 18 2007 20:58 rpf wrote: I really like what Tasteless and Nony have said. Tasteless told me some things about how Koreans use their keyboard and why he thinks it gives them an edge. Maybe he'd like to elaborate on it some more. It was something I thought was really cool.
Anyways, I have a question: when you guys are saying that you use 1-3 or 4 for units...seriously how can you only ever have 4 groups hotkeyed? Or are you just talking about early game? I mean, I often get up to 5 or 6 groups hotkeyed that I'm using.
Maybe I need to be spreading my units more, and leaving some not hotkeyed at important expos?
The main reason I made this thread is because the system I use early game doesn't work late game as I've overwritten some of my gates, and then I think it makes it harder to macro because I can't go "5-5" to go back to my big cluster of gates. Maybe I should try using F2-4?
As I've already said, f2-f4 is very efficient for macro late-game. It all depends on your playing method. If you're expanding constantly and don't tend towards big fights, then you can easily macro for the whole game with 4-6 gateways. It is naturally better to use numerical hotkeys there. If you play hardcore war from 2 bases without building pylons/depots for the sake of losing your army fast, then you'll end up with many gates and f-keys are preferred there. F-keys are not that good because of easy macro. They are good because you'll have a bajillion free number keys right from the start (I never bother to hotkey more than 2 gates in most matches) and they are good because your f4 will be on the rally point, which means that getting reinforcements will be as easy as F4<>select<>hotkey assign<>A<>left click on the minimap. Not to mention that controlling 15 gates PvT with numerical hotkeys is just absurd in any case.
As to 0-nexus, it just comes to personal preference. I like to be able to hit a quick 0-p during battle without moving the mouse. It's just my personal feeling that mouse is more important for a toss than keyboard - most of your units don't have any special powers, micro comes down to fast and precise click. (especially shuttle micro to which toss resorts very often) I have a feeling that I don't have the luxury to ever hover my mouse over the commands sub-window. But Nony just made a perfect point about personal preference. Try out different systems and see what's best for you.
On March 17 2007 19:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: i hotkey 8 9 0 to initial nexus just cause if i miss 0 i still hit 9, which is hotkeyed to the same thing
Haha I never thought of that, but however as far as I remember I've never misclicked my Nexus O_O
On March 18 2007 14:57 Knickknack wrote: Um, how hard is it to find out that many (and probably the majority of) pros do not do 0p or scout on8. Nexus on 4: Pusan, Stork, Bisu, Daezang, PJ, Anytime. Nexus on 3: Tempest, free, draco. Nexus on 2: asuka. Nexus on 1, Jangbi, bestgod. Nexus on 6, Tester, Sea.pure. Nexus on 7, Zeus. Etc, etc.
What exactly is this 'pro' way of holding ones hand? I recommend placing your wrist in the middle or slightly to left of the 1-0keys, so your keyboard reach is good and your pinkey is closer to shift/ctrl/z/. You can hit 1 with ring and 0p by just moving wrist. Other then that, who cares. There really is not a big difference. Guess he picked 'Reach' because he likes to reach across the keyboard unnecessarily. -.- Seriously though, not a big difference and I bet Reach could change and play just as well soon enough. The problem is that you are saying this is the optimal way to play, while nony and I would disagree or at least say that they are all so close as long as it is reasonable.
hm
hold your left hand out over your keyboard and look at it. Now, place your right thumb over the right ctrl key and streatch your pinky to the farthest number key over to the right. How far can your pinky reach while still holding the right ctrl key with your thumb?
most people can only reach the 4-5 key by doing this. My hand can actually reach the 2 key becuase i have very large hands. Nal ra and reach both have big hands aswell and use the hotkey setup i was talking about. Players with smaller hands set the nexus as 3 because traveling from 0 to their hotkeyed gateways is too difficult.
people are talking about how they need to move their hands all over they keyboard hiting going from tasks like 0p9p8d7d6d5d4d and that this setup somehow makes it more difficult. Understand that becuase of my hand size there is little difficulty in streching my fingers while doing this. What i'm saying is people with bigger hands would probably prefer my setup while people with smaller hands would probably prefer seting the nexus as 3.
But i think you missed my point with always using 2 keys on the keyboard like 0p9p rahter than using the mouse to produce units 1 [click probe] 2 [click probe]. Obviously nony is very fast at this or he wouldn't still be using it. The problem is that you have to look at the probe button when your clicking on it. By glancing at this location on the screen repeatedly you have a higher chance of missing something on the minimap. I also don't understand how you can easily produce probes and micro anything while this is happening. if your always using your mouse to control your units while breifly tabbing your hotkeys to produce units there is less room for error.
I'm not saying every single pro ever uses the EXACT same hotkey setup. They all have diffrent hand sizes and some setups work better with diffrent hand sizes. What i am saying is that they ALL use hotkeys to produce units early and do not click on the unit icon. lategame when your macroing out of 20 gateways it's diffrent. But early game by utilizing the keyboard hotkey setup one can preform all early game tasks 10x more efficently than using the mouse to an unnecessary extent.
Some good advice guys. I always hotkey nex to 1 and 2 early game and then switch to f2-f4 when i need to hotkey unit groups, but it seems to make much more sense to use 90 for nex, being right next to p. Reaching across the keyboard to hit p always slows me down a lot!
Tasteless, didn't you used to be T? I remember playing pvt vs you at WCG Chicago. Maybe you were just being nice to the newb and using off race? =D
hum big hands is a good point. I can only reach 4-5 like you type.
I see what your saying in that attention is better focused elsewhere, but I dunno how much it really matters. But, perhaps if I actually played I would see the sense in use 0p or just p as well more.
But lets admit first of all that keys were made by what letter they start with, practical in a way, but really silly. T has easy access to scv, so p may as well have easy access to p.
I play my gate production with double-tapping 5 too, or 6 when I overwrote 5 with units. If you feel that doesn't work out in late-game cause you have no hotkey to double-tap, you could try the area selecting function. I never used it yet though, but I believe you can assign areas on the screen you are currently on with Shift + F2-F4
Hmm.. for me.. its 1- scouting probe 2- building probe (ie when i send a probe to build gateway ill hotkey it 2) 3- nexus 4- expo nexus (i play fe alot) 5-0 - gateways then later in the game 1-4 (567) - units 890 gateways
On April 16 2007 18:33 Loophole wrote: Some good advice guys. I always hotkey nex to 1 and 2 early game and then switch to f2-f4 when i need to hotkey unit groups, but it seems to make much more sense to use 90 for nex, being right next to p. Reaching across the keyboard to hit p always slows me down a lot!
Tasteless, didn't you used to be T? I remember playing pvt vs you at WCG Chicago. Maybe you were just being nice to the newb and using off race? =D
i played random for a very long time. while it gave me a better grasp of the game overall, it definitely put my hokey usage behind
1 shuttle(s) 2 units 3 units 4 gate 5 gate 6 gate 7 gate 8 robo 9 nexus 0 nexus
Late
1 shuttle(s) (I try to keep harrass going all game long) 2 units 3 units 4 units 5 units 6 units (Can get entire army in this until... 170+ supply about) 7 gate 8 robo (because obs die a lot, and I rally it to where I want the observer) 9 stargate 0 nexus (where ever my newest one is so I can keep track on progress)
I overlap hotkeys, for example 1 to 0 will be all hotkeyed to my nexus at the beginning. Then as the game progresses I just hotkey like most of the other people here - 1: scout 2 to 6: gateways, stargates etc etc.
Imo its much easier to remember and refer to them that way.
And btw m3, for most people its much faster to 1d2d3d4d5z6z7z than clicking on each building individually to make units unless you have kor-like hand movements.
i hotkey my nexus with 1 at start, the scout probe with 2 and the first pylon with 3. Then, the first attack units I hotkey with 2, then other group with 3 and the 3rd group with the 1.
Sounds confusing but is good. I have the 1 button a lot of time in the nexus because i can attack and make probes at the same time ^^
On March 17 2007 14:49 rpf wrote: I know there was another thread on this, but that was more or less just a bunch of players sharing their hotkey system.
I've been having problems with my hotkey system lately, and so I'm trying to find a good way to revise it.
I hotkey my main nexus to 0, then my scout to 9. This way I can switch between the two without moving my whole hand (a lot of players use 1/2 for their scout).
I then use 5-8 for my first few gates, and I used to use 9 for my robo as it's right next to o for obs, but I'm finding that it's more important to hotkey my nat nexus to 9 so I can keep probe production up.
Later on, I end up overwriting my gate hotkeys with units, as the way I hotkey units results in me having many groups not totally full. I think it's more important to have a good unit spread across the middle of the map than to have full groups to save on hotkeys. This results in me not being able to double-tap a hotkey to go back to my gates, not to mention rallying lots of gates late game when I'm adding my 10th+ gates and need to rally them all somewhere I run out of hotkeys to use.
So, I've gotten so frustrated trying to figure out a new system on my own, so I'm looking for some input.
Do I need to hotkey my robo? Should I hotkey my first three nexuses (sp.?)? Or is hotkeying my first two just fine?
Any suggestions at all would be really helpful.
Shift + f key hotkeys let you tap back to your Gates quickly.
On March 17 2007 14:49 rpf wrote: I know there was another thread on this, but that was more or less just a bunch of players sharing their hotkey system.
I've been having problems with my hotkey system lately, and so I'm trying to find a good way to revise it.
I hotkey my main nexus to 0, then my scout to 9. This way I can switch between the two without moving my whole hand (a lot of players use 1/2 for their scout).
I then use 5-8 for my first few gates, and I used to use 9 for my robo as it's right next to o for obs, but I'm finding that it's more important to hotkey my nat nexus to 9 so I can keep probe production up.
Later on, I end up overwriting my gate hotkeys with units, as the way I hotkey units results in me having many groups not totally full. I think it's more important to have a good unit spread across the middle of the map than to have full groups to save on hotkeys. This results in me not being able to double-tap a hotkey to go back to my gates, not to mention rallying lots of gates late game when I'm adding my 10th+ gates and need to rally them all somewhere I run out of hotkeys to use.
So, I've gotten so frustrated trying to figure out a new system on my own, so I'm looking for some input.
Do I need to hotkey my robo? Should I hotkey my first three nexuses (sp.?)? Or is hotkeying my first two just fine?
Any suggestions at all would be really helpful.
Shift + f key hotkeys let you tap back to your Gates quickly.
oh God if only someone had mentioned that earlier! Have fun being banned from the strat forum <3 and if an admin has mercy, shame
On March 17 2007 14:49 rpf wrote: I know there was another thread on this, but that was more or less just a bunch of players sharing their hotkey system.
I've been having problems with my hotkey system lately, and so I'm trying to find a good way to revise it.
I hotkey my main nexus to 0, then my scout to 9. This way I can switch between the two without moving my whole hand (a lot of players use 1/2 for their scout).
I then use 5-8 for my first few gates, and I used to use 9 for my robo as it's right next to o for obs, but I'm finding that it's more important to hotkey my nat nexus to 9 so I can keep probe production up.
Later on, I end up overwriting my gate hotkeys with units, as the way I hotkey units results in me having many groups not totally full. I think it's more important to have a good unit spread across the middle of the map than to have full groups to save on hotkeys. This results in me not being able to double-tap a hotkey to go back to my gates, not to mention rallying lots of gates late game when I'm adding my 10th+ gates and need to rally them all somewhere I run out of hotkeys to use.
So, I've gotten so frustrated trying to figure out a new system on my own, so I'm looking for some input.
Do I need to hotkey my robo? Should I hotkey my first three nexuses (sp.?)? Or is hotkeying my first two just fine?
Any suggestions at all would be really helpful.
Shift + f key hotkeys let you tap back to your Gates quickly.
oh God if only someone had mentioned that earlier! Have fun being banned from the strat forum <3 and if an admin has mercy, shame
Nothing wrong with Function Keys, they are quite helpful.
i was just wondering how you guys position your hand while hitting your hotkeys. i tried to find an ideal spot on the keyboard to put my left hand and well i couldn't find one lol. i was thinking in the middle so i can use all the numbers and what not (pinky on four and pointer on 7) but i dunno.. it never really caught on for me =\
Are you saying you use 6 hotkeys for units? Wow.... and there is no need to hotkey nexus late game, probes arent as much as a factor, you should be having a good economny, epseically if you have 10+ gateways. My noobish hotkeys but they somehow work for me, goes like this
123- units 4- nexus 5-0 gateway.
haha pretty simple, i re write the nexus to units and maybe 5 for observer or high templars. I tried using 0 for nexus, but I can't get that down.
Do you all use the hotkeys from 0-1 or 1-0? For example, most of you all use nexus as 0, and then go down with the numbers, unless its a unit.
Also, when there are alot of gateways, you can simply hotkey the pylon that is near them and then go mass macro.
On April 18 2007 21:38 il0seonpurpose wrote: Are you saying you use 6 hotkeys for units? Wow.... and there is no need to hotkey nexus late game, probes arent as much as a factor, you should be having a good economny, epseically if you have 10+ gateways. My noobish hotkeys but they somehow work for me, goes like this
123- units 4- nexus 5-0 gateway.
haha pretty simple, i re write the nexus to units and maybe 5 for observer or high templars. I tried using 0 for nexus, but I can't get that down.
Do you all use the hotkeys from 0-1 or 1-0? For example, most of you all use nexus as 0, and then go down with the numbers, unless its a unit.
Also, when there are alot of gateways, you can simply hotkey the pylon that is near them and then go mass macro.
And what is shift+f?
8-z 9-z 0-z is fucking cool. Nearly as much as 0-d. Really, no keys used in commonplay SC are further away from each other.
Shift-F2 (also F3 and F4) sets up location hotkeys - when you press F# your screen instantly jumps to the location you bound it to before. By default, all location keys are bound to your start location.
I use 1-2 units debut, 3 for shuttle, 4-5 gates at debut, 0-9-8 nexii. As I get additional gates up (excluding 3 gate zeal/3 gate goon openings) I override 4-5 and later keys with units and stop hotkeying my gates at all. For endgame my keys would look like:
1-5 units 6 shuttles 7 obs 8-0 nexii F2-F3 gateway/production clusters F4 rally point of gates
Next Ten Minutes 12345-Units 6-Gate, 7-Gate, 8-Gate 90-Nexus F2F3F4-Extra Nexus
Using the numbers 123 and 12345 throughout the early and late game correctly. 1. When hotkeying air units, always hotkey it to the last number of your unit hotkeys. (123 - 3 = Scout/Air) 2. Always hotkey your scout to the last number of your unit hotkeys as well. (12345 - 5 = Scout/Air)
Using the gateway hotkey numbers correctly. 1. Later game when you have to use 12345 for the units, you must free up space for hotkeys. So 678 will become gateways. Make 6 a single gateway out of many, and save 78 for later on. When you find yourself making another base of gateways. Set a single gateway 7. Sometimes you will need to use the number 6 for units, in that case set 7 as a single gateway. Then do the same for the number 8. Also you can just set it however you want so long as your using your mouse for the majoraty of your gateways.
Using the F2F3F4 hotkeys correctly. This is probably the best thing for starting when you are not one to use this style. Go to your expansion either center the screen on it, or click it and then its portrait to auto-center the screen for you. Then Shift+F2 will set it so the next time you push F2 it automatically jumps you to that location. Do the same for your 5th expansion and the sixth. One good thing is that 90 - Nexus become free later game when they are out of minerals, so just set those to new expansions on top of the F2F3F4 expands.
So, I've gotten so frustrated trying to figure out a new system on my own, so I'm looking for some input.
Do I need to hotkey my robo? Should I hotkey my first three nexuses (sp.?)? Or is hotkeying my first two just fine?
I have a hotkey system that I recognize isn't the most efficient, but at the same time it's very natural and I'm completely comfortable with it. I know that any time in the past when I've made alterations, it felt awkward at first and took some time to become second nature.
I have normal sized hands, but I also have the lasting injuries of a childhood spent playing street hockey without gloves. I've broken most fingers on my left hand and my pinky in particular won't move sideways. I guess the point is that you don't need big or dextrous hands for this.
Anyways, for what it's worth:
Early Game
- Nexus on 0, scouting probe on 1, initial pylon and then gateway on 4. Later, initial Nexus on 0 AND 2. Hitting 0p is so natural that it just makes sense for me. Plus it works with my midgame hotkeys of 8-0 on Nexuses (Nexii? =p ). I have my pylon on 4 before I make my gateway for two reasons: warm up hands by spamming hotkeys, and to get to that pylon in case I'm slacking off and not paying attention to my base when it comes time to construct the first gateway. The reason I double hotkey my Nexus at the very beginning is to switch quickly between my scouting probe and probe production. I can micro my probe and double-tap 2 in order to get back to my main and handle probes. The gateway on 4 is self explanatory.
Next Step (Not into Midgame Yet)
- 4-6 Gateways, 1-3 Units, 6 = 'Special Stuff' The reasoning for 4-6 as Gateway hotkeys makes sense when you look at what units you'll be making the most of. 4z5z6z is very comfortable and in no way difficult. 4g5g6g is even easier. No carpal tunnel coming to this guy. If I'm not going 3-gate and am instead doing a 1-gate Robo build, then 5 gets to be the robo. If I then make a 2nd gate, it steals 5. At this point I'm not too concerned about hotkeying my robo since I'm likely just making observers or the odd shuttle.
By 'special stuff', I mostly mean shuttles and drops. I know it seems weird to use 6, of all numbers, but it's easy to reach without moving your hand from the default position and it's nice to know that anything out of the ordinary you've got going on can be made accessible each game by hitting 6. Cliff drop? Better hit 6 to get those shuttles in. Gotta go micro that drop? 66! This way I don't have to think about too much.
Another thing that stays constant is the mapping of a Corsair and my initial DTs in a PvZ if I'm going that route. The Sair is on 1, and the DTs are on 2 for as long as I need them. This makes it easy to continue scouting the map for ovies/expos up until the point I'm ready to hotkey some units (more than '3' will allow). Usually by then I've lost either the sair or the DTs anyways since I'm a slacker.
Mid to Late Game
-8-0 Nexus, 1-5 Units, 6-7 Gateway clusters I've never played a game where I've been making probes from more than 3 Nexuses at once (a serious game, that is - probe recall rushes don't count). I like having all of my units hotkeyed simply because I don't have amazing APM and I need to be able to move them ASAP without going to their position on the map. This is probably the point in the game where the hotkeys become the simplest and they don't change - units are just added and subtracted from groups.
The remaining hotkeys (6,7) are used to bring focus to clusters of Gateways, letting me cycle through them manually while spamming unit construction hotkeys.
I don't know if this helps, but hopefully it does. I guess the point is that you should have a good reason for selecting each hotkey you use - besides that 'some pro does this'.
On March 18 2007 00:28 thedeadhaji wrote: I copied bisu so i have 5 as observer now pretty much no matter what. It gets weird though when units overflow to 6 --;;
guys just use whatever hotkeys are natural to you, yuo dont have to copy progamers :p your hand size and adjustment might not be the same as anytime or bisu
like my hands are incredibly small, my pinky and thumb reached out as far as possible barely makes 9 and 1
On April 17 2007 22:17 Reflex] wrote: I overlap hotkeys, for example 1 to 0 will be all hotkeyed to my nexus at the beginning. Then as the game progresses I just hotkey like most of the other people here - 1: scout 2 to 6: gateways, stargates etc etc.
Imo its much easier to remember and refer to them that way.
And btw m3, for most people its much faster to 1d2d3d4d5z6z7z than clicking on each building individually to make units unless you have kor-like hand movements.
i dont play toss or anything, but i was watching some draco fpvods and he does f2/double taps a gate hotkey and clicks each building individually.
On April 30 2007 20:59 OhThatDang wrote: why dont you just...save the screen and press shift + f3 on your gates instead of double pressing 3,3 to get back to gates ?
Personally, I find double tapping much easier and more natural. I usually like to Oov style time my gates by keeping one attached to 4 and checking it, then double tapping to get back and do a round of macro.
Later on when I have tons of gates and units filling my keys, I usually just make my way to my gates manually and macro gets slopy any way since im maxed/fighting a big battle/qeueing up units in a bunch of gates.
Probably not the right way to do it. I should probably pay more attention to pros like Haji does and model after them.
i use 1 and 2 for goons but also have templars and obs mised in with them. then i use 3 for zealots and 4 for shuttles. 5-8 gateways and 9 and 0 for my nexuses. later on in the game if i need it, i overwrite some of my gateway hotkeys to unit hotkeys.
On April 30 2007 20:26 LastRomantic wrote: Really? I think it's much faster to click on buildings and press buttons, because both hands in use.
Also, what happens when you go over 10 gateways :O
no...
you only need to click on gateways when you get past the hotkey amount... and that never happens until your maxed out at 200/200. basically you should be using hotkeys to utilize speed until you HAVE to click. if you think clicking is faster you just suck at using the keyboard.
Im trying to learn starcraft and i played a game against the computer the other day.. my first game Anyway, i tried my best to use as much keys i could.. and i hotkeyed nexus to 9 but i kept hitting "-" and it reduces game speed .. its so annoying lol. So is there any good way to practice? Like keep the hand at a certain spot and keep ur index finger on a certain key so your hand kind of see the keyboard and memorize the location of other keys ? =/
On April 30 2007 20:26 LastRomantic wrote: Really? I think it's much faster to click on buildings and press buttons, because both hands in use.
Also, what happens when you go over 10 gateways :O
no...
you only need to click on gateways when you get past the hotkey amount... and that never happens until your maxed out at 200/200. basically you should be using hotkeys to utilize speed until you HAVE to click. if you think clicking is faster you just suck at using the keyboard.
practice.
How come like 90% of pros are shown in fpvods and during games to click through their production buildings using mouse then...? At least that's what I thought I was seeing.
That\'s because most of their hotkeys are already used -_-;;;
Watch Bisu vs Hwasin in RLT, GOM MSL1. He had hotkeyed about 4 Gateways, but still ended up clicking several Gateways, only because other things were taking up his hotkey space (Nexii, units, Observers, etc.)
On May 12 2007 01:35 ahmadmz wrote: Im trying to learn starcraft and i played a game against the computer the other day.. my first game Anyway, i tried my best to use as much keys i could.. and i hotkeyed nexus to 9 but i kept hitting "-" and it reduces game speed .. its so annoying lol. So is there any good way to practice? Like keep the hand at a certain spot and keep ur index finger on a certain key so your hand kind of see the keyboard and memorize the location of other keys ? =/
well it sounds like your not using all your fingers right. at the start of the game your index finger should always be on p and your middle finger on 0(nexus) with your ring finger on 9(scouting probe)... the thumb rests on control. pop the windows and printer keys out and now you can acess the shift button with your thumb aswell. your hand wont leave this position until you need to make a gateway. practice shifting between the two. your pinky can bounce down to 'b' again for 'build' while still using your index to make pylons. also note in this position you can use your ring finger for 'y' for the core. if you fe you can use your ring finger again for 'n' to make the nexus. the other time you need to move your hand out of this position early is for the gateway, i prefer to use my index on 'b' and my middle on 'g'. making the transition wont be hard with practice.
if you want to master hotkeys you should first map out what every hot key is for that race and then figure out what hotkeys you use at what points in time in the game. i'll admit it's complicated but when i did it it helped my games drastically.
if you struggle to use the hotkeys correctly just play a computer on the slowest setting. watch your hands and watch while you play and study the correct positions to hold them in.
when i watched foru at wcg 2005 his hand moved all over the entire keyboard. at wcg 2006 iloveoov was the same way. They have MASTERED the keyboard and you have to aswell if you want to master starcraft.
On May 12 2007 10:53 Equinox_kr wrote: That\'s because most of their hotkeys are already used -_-;;;
Watch Bisu vs Hwasin in RLT, GOM MSL1. He had hotkeyed about 4 Gateways, but still ended up clicking several Gateways, only because other things were taking up his hotkey space (Nexii, units, Observers, etc.)
On April 30 2007 20:26 LastRomantic wrote: Really? I think it's much faster to click on buildings and press buttons, because both hands in use.
Also, what happens when you go over 10 gateways :O
no...
you only need to click on gateways when you get past the hotkey amount... and that never happens until your maxed out at 200/200. basically you should be using hotkeys to utilize speed until you HAVE to click. if you think clicking is faster you just suck at using the keyboard.
practice.
I'm guessing I can do 3click click z click z click z click d click d faster than I can do 3z4z5z6d7d8d, no matter how much I train the latter. Simply, one of them uses two hands, and the other uses one hand. I suppose I could do 3z4z with both hands, but that's still slow because I have to move my hand back.
I always thought most players had more than 7 gateways well before they get to 200/200. I suppose it's matchup dependent and game dependent.
Plus, even at like 150 supply, I like having most of my units keyed. I prefer macro with mouse and 1a2a3a4a instead of macro with keyboard and unit attacking with mouse.
i'm a zerg player so i don't really know toss, but a good way to learn hotkeys is to download some pro reps and use bwchart to analyze them, it should tell u every hotkey the player used and at what stage of the game, that's how I learned my zerg hotkeys (from non other than savior and july ^^), bwchart is good for many things, and its free, i highly recommand it. ^^
On April 30 2007 20:26 LastRomantic wrote: Really? I think it's much faster to click on buildings and press buttons, because both hands in use.
Also, what happens when you go over 10 gateways :O
no...
you only need to click on gateways when you get past the hotkey amount... and that never happens until your maxed out at 200/200. basically you should be using hotkeys to utilize speed until you HAVE to click. if you think clicking is faster you just suck at using the keyboard.
practice.
I'm guessing I can do 3click click z click z click z click d click d faster than I can do 3z4z5z6d7d8d, no matter how much I train the latter. Simply, one of them uses two hands, and the other uses one hand. I suppose I could do 3z4z with both hands, but that's still slow because I have to move my hand back.
I always thought most players had more than 7 gateways well before they get to 200/200. I suppose it's matchup dependent and game dependent.
Plus, even at like 150 supply, I like having most of my units keyed. I prefer macro with mouse and 1a2a3a4a instead of macro with keyboard and unit attacking with mouse.
are you fucking serious? do you really think that 4d5d6d7d8d9d or 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z is THAT hard to do? when i started practicing it i got incredibly fast in 10 minutes. this is like saying you couldn't learn how to transition intbetween two or three guitar chords with your left hand no mater how much you practiced. and if that's the case... you must be retarded.
if anyone has four fingers and a thumb with their left hand can do what i've just explained. and no... you NEVER bring your hand off the mouse and use both hands on the keyboard. With simple practice you can master any hand combination required in starcraft.
saying you can click fast to produce makes you sound stupid... think about this for a second... if your clicking to produce you have to be watching your mouse cursor while you transition between making dragoons templars zealots and dts.... if your using your hands for macro you can be watching the minimap or checking for other various things like what your food is so you know when to make your next pylons or checking to see that your probes arn't idle.
this is exactly why forigners fucking suck at this game. STOP FUCKING CLICKING WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO. if you really play starcraft all the time (and if you read tl.net then you do) then you should get the dicipline to actually get good at how the game is supposed to be played. if your not using EVERY hotkey on the keyboard (and a shitton of forigners don't) and that includes the f2 f3 f4 keys then i can't even fathom why you would be playing in the first place. If you can't off the top of your head say what every hotkey is for every action with your own race you should be ashamed of yourself (i'm not implying LastRomantic dosn't).
If you don't know this, just go into single player, type the coes in, and start mastering this shit.
this game is more fun when you utilize the keyboard. you have more control over the game. all it takes is practice. Everyone who is reading this look at your keyboard right now. Look at your left shift key. Do you still have the windows and printer keys on your keyboard??... if you do you should feel like a god damn newb. take a pencile and break them off now. With this out of the way you can access shift and ctrl easily no mater what location your hands are on the keyboard.
practice practice practice! if i see another post on this thread with someone telling me that mass clicking is some how more efficent than using hotkey patterns i'm going to upercut my monotor out of sheer frustration. i can do 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d in litterally half a second while still watching the minimap for a terran dropship.
if this keyboard stuff is really that hard to figure out then set a coustom game on slow vs a computer and watch your hands while you play. you'll be amazed at all the keys you could have been accessing easily instead of frantically clicking on shit with your eyes at the bottom right hand of the screen.
at times my girlfriend watches me play. she asked me what i was doing with my left hand when i played. i showed her some simple patterns i follow. after 15 mintues she could go 4d5d6d7d8d9d0 with ease.
I apologize if i sound bitter... but there is a massive missunderstanding in the forigner community about clicking over hotkey usage; also known as "Forigner style," the term koreans use for our excessive amount of clicking, and is looked upon as a joke in korea.
On April 30 2007 20:26 LastRomantic wrote: Really? I think it's much faster to click on buildings and press buttons, because both hands in use.
Also, what happens when you go over 10 gateways :O
no...
you only need to click on gateways when you get past the hotkey amount... and that never happens until your maxed out at 200/200. basically you should be using hotkeys to utilize speed until you HAVE to click. if you think clicking is faster you just suck at using the keyboard.
practice.
I'm guessing I can do 3click click z click z click z click d click d faster than I can do 3z4z5z6d7d8d, no matter how much I train the latter. Simply, one of them uses two hands, and the other uses one hand. I suppose I could do 3z4z with both hands, but that's still slow because I have to move my hand back.
I always thought most players had more than 7 gateways well before they get to 200/200. I suppose it's matchup dependent and game dependent.
Plus, even at like 150 supply, I like having most of my units keyed. I prefer macro with mouse and 1a2a3a4a instead of macro with keyboard and unit attacking with mouse.
are you fucking serious? do you really think that 4d5d6d7d8d9d or 4z5z6z7z8z9z0z is THAT hard to do? when i started practicing it i got incredibly fast in 10 minutes. this is like saying you couldn't learn how to transition intbetween two or three guitar chords with your left hand no mater how much you practiced. and if that's the case... you must be retarded.
if anyone has four fingers and a thumb with their left hand can do what i've just explained. and no... you NEVER bring your hand off the mouse and use both hands on the keyboard. With simple practice you can master any hand combination required in starcraft.
saying you can click fast to produce makes you sound stupid... think about this for a second... if your clicking to produce you have to be watching your mouse cursor while you transition between making dragoons templars zealots and dts.... if your using your hands for macro you can be watching the minimap or checking for other various things like what your food is so you know when to make your next pylons or checking to see that your probes arn't idle.
this is exactly why forigners fucking suck at this game. STOP FUCKING CLICKING WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO. if you really play starcraft all the time (and if you read tl.net then you do) then you should get the dicipline to actually get good at how the game is supposed to be played. if your not using EVERY hotkey on the keyboard (and a shitton of forigners don't) and that includes the f2 f3 f4 keys then i can't even fathom why you would be playing in the first place. If you can't off the top of your head say what every hotkey is for every action with your own race you should be ashamed of yourself (i'm not implying LastRomantic dosn't).
If you don't know this, just go into single player, type the coes in, and start mastering this shit.
this game is more fun when you utilize the keyboard. you have more control over the game. all it takes is practice. Everyone who is reading this look at your keyboard right now. Look at your left shift key. Do you still have the windows and printer keys on your keyboard??... if you do you should feel like a god damn newb. take a pencile and break them off now. With this out of the way you can access shift and ctrl easily no mater what location your hands are on the keyboard.
practice practice practice! if i see another post on this thread with someone telling me that mass clicking is some how more efficent than using hotkey patterns i'm going to upercut my monotor out of sheer frustration. i can do 4d5d6d7d8d9d0d in litterally half a second while still watching the minimap for a terran dropship.
if this keyboard stuff is really that hard to figure out then set a coustom game on slow vs a computer and watch your hands while you play. you'll be amazed at all the keys you could have been accessing easily instead of frantically clicking on shit with your eyes at the bottom right hand of the screen.
at times my girlfriend watches me play. she asked me what i was doing with my left hand when i played. i showed her some simple patterns i follow. after 15 mintues she could go 4d5d6d7d8d9d0 with ease.
I apologize if i sound bitter... but there is a massive missunderstanding in the forigner community about clicking over hotkey usage; also known as "Forigner style," the term koreans use for our excessive amount of clicking, and is looked upon as a joke in korea.
start training now
As zerg I do 0sm9sm8sm7sm6sm5sm4sm very quickly; it's not that hard. It'd be really pointless to click since the hatches are so far away from each other.
However, clicking gates and then pressing the hotkey to make the units seems faster after a certain amount of gates. I mean, you're going to have to click for your gates past your sixth or seventh or whatever anyways.
I never said to click things on the bottom right hand. That is ridiculous and stupid. By clicking I mean clicking on the gateways to go through them quickly. Similarly, you would click on raxes or factories to go through a production round quickly. As far as I know, this is what most progamers use, from watching fpvods. Like when oov is macroing from his six raxes or whatever, he doesn't do 5m6m7m8m9m0m; he clicks through them while pressing m each time.
As for bringing hand off mouse, some progamers actually do that ;; and it doesn't harm their game.
And then you have people like BoxeR who only hotkey like... their first two production buildings. But then he's BoxeR and does whatever the hell he wants.
Incidentally I need to actually use my mouse more ~~ I'm like 40% hotkey T-T
The only thing I don't like about clicking for macro is rally points. Like as zerg, I can 4r5r6r7r8r9r0r pretty easily, but I always wonder what protoss does after like fifteen gates.
On May 13 2007 22:09 LastRomantic wrote: Incidentally I need to actually use my mouse more ~~ I'm like 40% hotkey T-T
The only thing I don't like about clicking for macro is rally points. Like as zerg, I can 4r5r6r7r8r9r0r pretty easily, but I always wonder what protoss does after like fifteen gates.
ah ok so they do click, r, minimap, click, r, minimap. That's what I thought; doesn't seem like any other effective way to do it after you have more gates than hotkeys.
My rally points get so messy when I try that though XD they don't even all fit on the same plateau of baekdu ^^;; my mouse accuracy is horrible.
I like to hotkey 1-2 for units (scouting and attacking). Sometimes ill overwrite 1-4 with units when I attack in a large wave. 3-6 are for gateways. 8-0 for my nexus (expo, natural, and main respectively). I constantly overwrite my hotkeys during the game. I find it more effective.
On April 03 2008 02:41 mangina wrote: I like to hotkey 1-2 for units (scouting and attacking). Sometimes ill overwrite 1-4 with units when I attack in a large wave. 3-6 are for gateways. 8-0 for my nexus (expo, natural, and main respectively). I constantly overwrite my hotkeys during the game. I find it more effective.
Don't bump old threads unless you have a problem similar to the original thread creator's.
If you have problem with your 10+ gateways in late game why don't you use F2 F3 F4 centered on your gateways?
As a terran user, I use
early game:
1: Scout - vultures/marines (when scout dies) 2: vultures/marines 3: tank OR vulture/marines if I don't have tanks 4: CC 5: CC 6-8: rax/factories 9-0: scan
On April 03 2008 02:41 mangina wrote: I like to hotkey 1-2 for units (scouting and attacking). Sometimes ill overwrite 1-4 with units when I attack in a large wave. 3-6 are for gateways. 8-0 for my nexus (expo, natural, and main respectively). I constantly overwrite my hotkeys during the game. I find it more effective.
Don't bump old threads unless you have a problem similar to the original thread creator's.
I have a feeling my Protoss hotkeys aren't the most efficient either. I usually go 7-0 Nex and 1-6 units in the lategame. In the early game I hotkey cybernetics core, forge, robo bay, etc. I usually F-2 over my gateways and then click+z click+z click+z click+z click+d etc. By the time late game comes and I have 10 or more Gateways, how does it make sense to hotkey 7 of them and then click on the rest? I can F-2 and then click through all of them pretty quickly.
I don't deny it's better, but I want to understand why.
When i checked the hotkeys for Bisu or Stork, they use 4 for initial Nexus...how do they do 4p to build a probe? That looks pretty far on my keyboard....is it better to use 4 or 9/0? Also, custom keyboard hotkeys are illegal and considered hacks right (like rebinding p to e for probe)? It seems so awkward to do 4p...what do they use for nat expo nexus? Do the koreans use all original keys in their league games or they're allowed to use custom key programs or the korean keyboard has the p button on the left side of the keyboard?
hmm. I know theres no "right" way to hotkey. But can someone look over my hotkeys and tell me i'm doing something that can be done a lot easier?
Early game: 1 choke units 2 scout 3 nexus 4 gateway 0 nexus (so i can switch easier mid game)
Mid game: 1 units 2 units 3 units or shuttle 4-8 gatweways 9/10 nexus f2 gateways f3 tech buildings
late game: 1 units 2 units 3 units 4 units 5 units or shuttle 6 gateway (to check when units are done making 7/8 ?? (dont know what to put these as) 9/10 nexus (mining bases)
I'm relatively new and my two primary opponents are both zerg, my hotkeys that I try to use are as follows:
1 main army support obs/sairs/arbiter (flying things that I don't really want to attack move) 2 army 3 army 4 special force: shuttle+reaver/ht, but usually I'm sloppy and mix in other units too 5 army 6 lone scouts: probe/sair/obs 7 stargate 8 nexus 9 building probe 0 nexus
It's a lot easier for me to do 2a, 3a, 4a, 5a than to start on 1 on my keyboard. the idea is to have group 1 on follow so they don't run off places chasing random ovies or mutas only to get killed by scourge and only work with them when the battle commences.
7o8p0p is pretty easy for me. I have my gates hotkeyed to F2 and my rally hotkeyed to F3. Playing war3 for so long made it essential for me to have a building probe, now I just have to shake the habit of sending it back mining. Sometimes I'll just alt+0 my nexus to get a different probe to build.
0 nexus 9 nexus (early game 9 is for scout probe) 8 nexus 8p9p0p is sick for probes 7-4 pick one for a gateway (early game you want all your 2-4 gates on individual keys for easy 5z6z7d8d action). + Show Spoiler +
After you have 5+ gates it is no longer feasible to hotkey them all. nor is it very efficient since one key (namely F3) can bring you to your gates.
3-1 early game army, obs, shuttle, etc
shift+f2, f3, f4 are the most important hotkeys imo.. using these is so crucial.. for me anyway when i play.
f2 defaults to your main nexus.. i usually make f3 to cover my gates. this is where building design and sim city planning comes into focus. build your base so that all your important shit (gates, tech) is covered under F2 and F3 (obviously there are exceptions if you are trying to hide tech, etc).
use f3 and f4 for fast rally changing.
i find that hotkeying units is only useful when i attack. also you can assign f4 to a spot that you know you will soon attack.. this way you can 1a2a3a attack move/flank... then go home and macro (via f3) and then just hit f4 to go back and micro the battle.
another use for F4 outside of battles is with observers. I guess this is only in PvT but after you sneak an obs into their base situate it on the choke, or expo, or factories and assign that to F4. This way you can very quickly check him out with just one key stroke. There are many uses for the F shortcuts obviously. Use them frequently and change them frequently to suit for needs. Of course anything the F keys can do your mouse gestures can.. but think about how much time you waste mouse gesturing (even on silly fast scroll speed like I use). one F4 is instant. one mouse gesture or moving to click the minimap is almost instant... 10 F4 istrokes makes up a total of about 1 second of your overall game time. 10 mouse gestures is like 5 seconds... I hope this makes sense. Over time using F keys will save you precious seconds while over the course of the game using mouse gestures looses time. glhf
I do 1 for nexus, 2 for ONE of the gateways, since they will all be together. Then it's zealots first (3,4,5) and goons (5,6,7,8) and usually mix ht's in shuttle with zealots. (pvt) pvz, corsairs are usually 3, zealots/ht/archon 4,5,6. ._. No need for more.
On May 12 2009 15:06 shinbum wrote: I do 1 for nexus, 2 for ONE of the gateways, since they will all be together. Then it's zealots first (3,4,5) and goons (5,6,7,8) and usually mix ht's in shuttle with zealots. (pvt) pvz, corsairs are usually 3, zealots/ht/archon 4,5,6. ._. No need for more.
That's not very efficient for hotkey usage. You should do a mirror image of your keys. 8,9,0, for your Nexus production (since P is so close). 1,2,3,4 should be for your army since you can 1a2a3a4a easily (NO PUN INTENDED), and then it's suggested that you have 5,6,7 as your gateways for 5zdt6zdt7zdt or what have you. I think by late game in most instances you would end up just using your F keys for your gateway production so you can mix your hotkeys better (ie 5 = templar, 6 might be arbiter, 7 might be corsair)
On May 12 2009 15:06 shinbum wrote: I do 1 for nexus, 2 for ONE of the gateways, since they will all be together. Then it's zealots first (3,4,5) and goons (5,6,7,8) and usually mix ht's in shuttle with zealots. (pvt) pvz, corsairs are usually 3, zealots/ht/archon 4,5,6. ._. No need for more.
That's not very efficient for hotkey usage. You should do a mirror image of your keys. 8,9,0, for your Nexus production (since P is so close). 1,2,3,4 should be for your army since you can 1a2a3a4a easily (NO PUN INTENDED), and then it's suggested that you have 5,6,7 as your gateways for 5zdt6zdt7zdt or what have you. I think by late game in most instances you would end up just using your F keys for your gateway production so you can mix your hotkeys better (ie 5 = templar, 6 might be arbiter, 7 might be corsair)
Actually I always find 1a to be hard; also shinbum's system has merit for multi-main race (as I do).
0p9p 4d5d6d7d8d 4z5z6z7z8z using F2 for macro (mass gate area) 1a2a3a (middle, ring, middle, ring, index, ring respectively)
Protoss units in a group are all mixed.. You dont have to specifically group one group for Zealots or goons, since most probably you will just gonna 1a2a3a, then the rest of the micro use your mouse..
On May 12 2009 23:14 kaleidoscope wrote: 0p9p 4d5d6d7d8d 4z5z6z7z8z using F2 for macro (mass gate area) 1a2a3a (middle, ring, middle, ring, index, ring respectively)
Protoss units in a group are all mixed.. You dont have to specifically group one group for Zealots or goons, since most probably you will just gonna 1a2a3a, then the rest of the micro use your mouse..
Actually it's good to hotkey goons+1obs to clear mines and to defend vs pushes. I usually go 3/4 goons, 1/2 zeals (and shuttle and/or DT/HT), and 5 rest, 6 for carriers or arbitors.
Im sure some nerd is going to rage for me asking this.
Someone stated that several pro players use 4 for their first nexus and F2 for their natural. This is an obvious fact from replay's, but i have yet to see anyone explain the fundamental strength in this approach. (Preferably a hardcore like Nony)
Major Advantage: The key is close to your unit keys, so you can constantly check your main without "jumping" to 0 or 9. Also, you can quickly react to harrasment because the key is close, and because F2 is your natural, probe evacuation is excellent.
Major Disadvantage: It would appear that your probe production process would be as follows with at least 2 nexus:
4 --> hand jump to p --> hand jump back to hit F2 --> click on natural --> hand jump all the way back to P or click on probe.
There is a big "what if" here because it would seem that no one on these forums actually knows how these pro players like Bisu & Stork actually execute their probe production. Do they ever click on probe? Do they jump back and forth as i explained? Do they assign they latest built probe to minerals with their mouse hand as their other hand jumps to p? Personally, I would like intrinsic support for the method in addition to the arguement: THE PROS USE IT, ITS THE BEST
If your curious watch a replay of stork, Bisu or Violet (this site has several). Like a golf swing, or a jumpshot, there is generally an optimal technique for any game.
My guess is that Bisu's hotkey system ( 4 on 1st Nexus, ONLY F2 on 2nd nexus) is engineered for 2 basic purposes.
1. Allows for rapid cycling between his unit groups (1-3) and his main base (4) 2. Allows for rapid response to attacks on his mineral lines (He doesnt have to jump from 1,2 or 3 all the way across to 0,9 to respond, and in addition F keys allow for better probe transfers between nexi.
The major disadvantage would appear to be the probe production jumping. 4 --> hand jump to p --> hand jump back to hit F2 --> click on natural --> hand jump all the way back to P or click on probe.(Assuming no clicking of the probe icon)
I don't think anyone outside of players on SKT1 would really know exactly how he moves his hand to perform these actions, but if anyone can provide insight into this it would indeed be an addition to the thread. An explanation would have to be two fold; 1. Explanation of intrinsic value behind the key choice, and 2. A detailed explanation of how he moves his hands to achieve this value
Here's what I do when I off-race P. The hotkeys are modeled after Bisu/Stork, but I'm not sure what they set their F-keys at or how exactly they do the hand motion.
Early game hotkeys: 1-3 units, 4 main nex, 6+ gates, 0 robo (stargate in pvz). 5 I change all the time, gate, observer, units, whatever. 2nd Nex is an option.
To make probes just hit 4p, swing pinky over and hit either f3 or f4 (both are set as natural in early game), click nex and hit p. Very simple and very fast. You could do the same thing with your 2nd nex set as 5, the difference being that 5 is a very useful hotkey in the middle of the keyboard, which is why I think most progamers only hotkey 1 nexus. Use f2/f3 to swing back and forth to send probes to minerals quickly.
For F-keys, set them on your bases/nexuses. Like, reset F2 to get as much of your base as possible. Get the nexus and workers, and as many tech buildings and gateways as possible on the screen. Hotkey gates that are off the screen (like your expo gate in pvz, or extra gates in pvt). If you're rallying to your natural you can do the same thing.. try to get the nexus/workers/rally point on the same screen.. on most maps and in most situations you can. That frees up F4 for your third base.
If you're playing PvT or something and it turns into a macrofest with 15 gates, 2 stargates, with a rally point halfway across the map, just use f2/f3 for gates/rally. Or 66 back to a single gate and go from there.
You can use that same idea whatever hotkeys you use. Starting with your hand on the left, select your main nexus with 1, 4, 5, or whatever, hit P with index finger, pivot and hit f3 or f4 to change to a new nexus, click and type p again.
For protoss progamers they do use f keys and put it over nexus so it would be like f2 p f3 p f4 p. Only a couple progamers don't do it. Pwrsonlly I think 0p9p8p just makes a person too lazy to move their hands around. Little bit.
On November 07 2009 14:53 Canopus wrote: My guess is that Bisu's hotkey system ( 4 on 1st Nexus, ONLY F2 on 2nd nexus) is engineered for 2 basic purposes.
Wouldn't it be pretty hard maynarding probes from natural to main with these hotkeys? He'd have to press f2, select probes, HOTKEY them, double-tap 4, send the probes.
Wouldn't it be pretty hard maynarding probes from natural to main with these hotkeys? He'd have to press f2, select probes, HOTKEY them, double-tap 4, send the probes
Its impossible to tell from replay's, but one would assume he puts F3 over his main, so he can evacuate probes from his natural to his main or vice versa very quickly.
To make probes just hit 4p, swing pinky over and hit either f3 or f4 (both are set as natural in early game), click nex and hit p. Very simple and very fast. You could do the same thing with your 2nd nex set as 5, the difference being that 5 is a very useful hotkey in the middle of the keyboard, which is why I think most progamers only hotkey 1 nexus. Use f2/f3 to swing back and forth to send probes to minerals quickly.
That sounds very reasonable. A lot of hoops to jump through just to produce probes, but when you play a video game 10hrs+ a day, I suppose you have time to learn such things.
It was pretty awkward at first, but it really only took about 10 games or so to get used to. It's a lot faster and more efficient than 0p9p when you consider that you have to find a way to send probes to minerals anyway.
Also, if he's setting F2 at his natural (I read F4 before somewhere but I have no idea), he might be thumbing 'p' and using his pinky to hit f2-f4, which is probably better anyway.
What I found with the 4 for nexus is that after around 8 minutes, Bisu stops making probes (unless he loses a significant amount), this way his units are on 1 2 3 4 5, overwriting the nexus and leaving the gateways intact.
My hotkey setup is as follows:
1-4 units 5 gateways 6 w/e 7 scout 8 tech check (I have hard time knowing when my robo is done for example) 90 nexi
F2 coincides with the nexus on 0, F3 coincides with the nexus on 9 F4 for rally point.
This is a very personal hotkey setup, so I dont reccommend someone copying it exactly.The purposes of this setup is to:
use 9p0p use 5 to whatever for gateways be able cycle between my tech building, nexus AND scout at the same.
later on in the game I just put gateway on 6, 7 or 8 to give space for units.
I dont know if ppl read this thread anymore,but im just gonna add in what I do when i play in terms of hotkeys.
So, i am pretty new to scbw, and i think ive played about maybe 20+ games a day almost for the last 2½-3 months or so and the hotkeys im using is just because thats how i think its best for ME.
So lets start with units, Normally i only hotkey the spell casters, like HT, or other units like DT's and shuttles, and observers for fast use.
so my general idea is: my units at 1,2 my HT´s at 4 and my shuttles at 3. DT/observers at 0.
buildings
I dont hotkey to many buildings except the important ones sometimes, i build all my buildings very close to each other so i often only need one hotkey for them all. (sounds stupid but if ud see my sim city youd understand)
I place my gateways close to each other so they fit on one screen, so for my gateways i use F2 map hotkey and if i put gateways elsewhere on the map i add another Function key, like F3.
first nexus at 5, and after that 5-8. Robo( if i need to have alot of observers or reavers or whatnot,) i hotkey robo to 9.
this feels really good for me, i generally dont need to hotkey my zealot and dragoons ,but i do it sometimes on 1-2 to reach them easier should i need it, Summary:
mmmm thanx for bumping this, didn' t know this thread.
I ve played 1100 games give or take but still nooby as well.
I think its optimal not only to use all hotkeys but to master using them as well. i use: PvT: 1 scout (after reading the OP i will try and use 9 or something do) 0 main nexus, 9 natural nexus, 8 third (always)
Early game i won t have zealots most likely, so
1, 2, goons
I always hotkey my first 2 or 3 gates to 3, 4, 5.
And i always use F2 and F3 for natural and third, i should use more F4 but i m not used to it.
so middle game i hotket all gateways 3-7, and after F2 general gate aerea and F3 new gateway area.
With terran(TvP) i go 2 cc, 3 racks, 4 first fact and always hotkey my first 4 facts, 890 scan
when i get a natural 23 cc' s and always F2 main F3 natural, 1 scout/later on vultures.
I used to use 12 for vults, 34 tanks, 5 misc but now i find way better inverting tanks and vults so vults34 tanks 12
Do you guys hotkey a shuttle or dropship that you will harass with? if so what key do you use? and templars in it? does anybody actually hotkey workers to pull from a harass?
Do you hotkey a special science vessel (example to stop recall with emp) or arbiter? if so again which key do you use?
Hmm, if I had to play toss, I would use 1 for nexus, F2-F4 for all nexus, 4-0 for gateways and robos. Like early game, 1, f2 is main nexus, f3 is nat nexus, f4 is 3rd nexus. 2 is first ctrl groups of units then start to get to the 1-4 ctrl groups of army. for harrass shuttle, Im not sure.
I'm not a good player by any means but I feel that I've found a good hotkey setup for me. I kinda pulled together bits and pieces of what I've seen friends and pros do.
Early Game: 1 & 2 are probes - I normally use 2 as my scouting probe and 1 for a probe that is on the end of the mineral line so its really quick to go back and build 3 is my first nexus, though I also bind it to 0 4-6 are gates - I hotkey my core to 5 for a minute or so at the very begining while its build/while I'm waiting for the resources to upgrade goon range (this is when I go any build which goes 1 gate then core else it will be my forge or just another gate) 7 is my robo 8 is an obs 9 is nexus at my natural 0 is main nexus
I generally use F2 over my main F3 over my nat, then switch to 3rd and 4th expos, and keep F4 for my main set of gates. I will set 4, 5, and 6 in the middle of different clusters of gateways for easy macro and the rebind them with units as I go. If I get to really late game I generally have 1-5 or so as units then the rest as gates and use F2 and F4 for quick waypoint switching.
Im not that good but ill give it a go: 1-Nexus 2-Gateway 3-Gateway 4-2nd nexus(3rd gateway if doing aggresive builds) 5.Scout,early game army,obs 6-3rd gate,later switches to third nexus 7-4th gate 8-Nothing 9-Nothing 0-Robotics facillity F2-Main nexus F3 Nat nexus F4 Gateways
f3 main f4 nat (its not f2 cuz my laptop f2 is too far to the left side to hit f2 and s for making scvs). my nat ends up being my rally point so that covers that
1-3 units 4-5 gates (sometimes 6 if I have tons of them) 6/7 - 0 for nexi to make probes (if you hit 0p0 really fast it ends up centering to the nexus, so I can tell the newly made probe to go mine or w.e. and i do this for the first 4 or what nexi i need)
i keep and my upgrades and important buildings like stargates/robo near my nexi so I can use the fkeys for them.
EPT
I think I use almost all of my hotkeys.
