So I was going through my considerable backlog of unwatched VODs recently, and got to Spotimes Starleague's Ro16 Group D games. In two of the games the commentator gives some tips that I thought might be interesting to translate and share, although perhaps these are well-known facts.
1. In game 1, Hero vs. Jaehoon ( ), at 03:49 (of the VOD), Jaehoon's Probe finds its way into Hero's main, and the commentator says (approx. transl.):
"Jaehoon will now check whether Hero is making Drones or Zerglings. The viewers may not know this, but it at this time in the game it is possible to know what the Zerg is making, by checking whether another Larva is coming out while the eggs are morphing. Because the build time difference between Zerglings and Drones, a new Larva will pop out if Zerglings are being made. (If there Drones are being made, there will not be a new Larva before the eggs hatch.)"
In other words, it is possible, with the right timing, to actually tell what's inside the morphing eggs of the Zerg player!
2. In game 2, Last vs. Bishop ( ), at around 17:44 (of the VOD), Last is containing Bishop with a line of tanks that is oriented from bottom-left to top-right. The commentator notes that Last has a positional advantage, because a Siege Tank's range of sight (edited for correctness) is greater to its right than its left, and greater towards bottom than towards top. In other words, tanks attacking from 11 o'clock in the 5 o'clock direction will have an advantage over tanks attacking the other way around.
I hope this is interesting to some people. It sure was new to me.
Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it. Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
On September 11 2015 06:34 Cryoc wrote: Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it.
Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
The first trick is super cool, but the second one is mind-blowing. It makes me want to rewatch all pro games ever played to see if it impacted the players' strategies at some point.
I haven't watched the videos, but yes. Absolutely correct about the fact that what the eggs are being made. It also affects the build timing. This fact is very important in 2v2 match up and makes a difference between a good zerg and bad zerg. To show this fact more clear, here is a great example that I can provide for the readers. In 2v2, it's about timing, and you cannot play half all-in and half economic style as a zerg player.
About the uses of siege mode, maybe I did not understand the sentence, so I will listen to the vod later.
As for tanks, when tanks siege from top vs tanks siege from bottom, the ones from bottom will fire quicker as they don't have to rotate the canons. (they win)
Larva spawn thing is very common for all zergs that play ZvZ especially. When you constantly spawn drones, the drone spawns just a moment after a larva comes out. For zerglings this is extended. It's also possible to tell if there are mutas in the egg, as this takes even longer than zerglings. Ultralisks spawn just before 2nd larva is spawned.
On September 11 2015 05:58 sabas123 wrote: what the fuck, I never realized that you could see if a drone or zergling was made by larva timing.
Time to start learning korean again.
To clarify: yes, the timing involves larva, but it's more important to realize that one unit takes longer to spawn from an egg than another (that is, unit build timing). That's the key. That's what the commentator (former progamer trOt, if I'm not mistaken) is essentially saying in the cast.
My Korean is terrible, but here's my translation: Park Sung-jin [trOt]: "Here's a tip: There's a way to tell if these [eggs] are zerglings or drones." Seo Yeon-ji: "How?" Park Sung-jin: "If they are zerglings, a larva will pop out [or spawn]." [larva spawns] Seo Yeon-ji: "Like that. These are zerglings." [zerglings pop] Park Sung-jin: "If the larva doesn't pop out, they are drones." Seo Yeon-ji: "Really?" Park Sung-jin: "Because the build timings are different, in the case of zerglings, a larva will spawn, in the case of drones, a larva will not spawn. Amazing, right?" Seo Yeon-ji: "Yeah!"
It's something, of course, that all players know intuitively but are not thinking about all the time consciously. I doubt most of us here bother to check unit build timings and larva spawn timings. I don't see this [edit: this particular little trick, anyway; be super-serial about timings in general] as something that's going to be decisively game-changing in the grand scheme, but it's useful if you really want to save that scout. It might also be useful for ZvZ. Nevertheless, it is definitely something cool to keep a mindfulness about.
[edit: I just read Scan's post, and it seems I've been preempted by the gosu player.]
The second tip really floored me though. I've played this game since it's been out and I'm still learning things about it. This is the kind of factor that has the power to alter the game. Just amazing. It's kind of shameful because (and I'm hoping my seventh-grade level Korean is correct) trOt says during the cast that a lot of people know this, and I think even Seo Yeon-ji says she learned it (from somewhere, but I have no idea where because the usefulness of my Korean ends at the playground).
This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
On September 11 2015 22:32 zimp wrote: This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
I had forgotten to consider this. But I'm actually exceedingly confused now, and I'm hoping someone can come in and translate the whole thing (from about 17:45 to 18:20). I think what people have written in this thread versus what I am hearing in the cast is bewildering my mind. With my subpar Korean, what I am gathering is that the attack range is longer. If I'm not mistaken, at 17:45, trOt explains that tanks have greater (or longer) attack range (I think more accurately-translated: shooting or firing) from top to bottom and from left to right. He says "쏘는게". The "쏘" part means means "shoot" or "fire". Now, I'm not entirely sure what he says at 18:00 (halp), but at about 18:12 he explains about positioning. Again, if I'm not mistaken, he says that the best position to be is at your opponent's 11.
I'm really hoping someone clears up my confusion. Honestly, maybe the best way to improve your game really is to learn Korean.
On September 11 2015 22:32 zimp wrote: This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
I had forgotten to consider this. But I'm actually exceedingly confused now, and I'm hoping someone can come in and translate the whole thing (from about 17:45 to 18:20). I think what people have written in this thread versus what I am hearing in the cast is bewildering my mind. With my subpar Korean, what I am gathering is that the attack range is longer. If I'm not mistaken, at 17:45, trOt explains that tanks have greater (or longer) attack range (I think more accurately-translated: shooting or firing) from top to bottom and from left to right. He says "쏘는게". The "쏘" part means means "shoot" or "fire". Now, I'm not entirely sure what he says at 18:00 (halp), but at about 18:12 he explains about positioning. Again, if I'm not mistaken, he says that the best position to be is at your opponent's 11.
I'm really hoping someone clears up my confusion. Honestly, maybe the best way to improve your game really is to learn Korean.
I'm not a native Korean speaker myself, but I listened to the explanation again and it seems that Cryoc was right. The commentator says "시야" meaning outlook, view, sight. So it is the range of sight that is longer in two directions than in the respective opposite directions.
Edit: Also, you got the part right, about the best attack position being at your opponent's 11 o'clock. But the additional comments given in this thread also need to be considered, about the tank cannon having to turn when attacking from 11 to 5.
On September 11 2015 22:32 zimp wrote: This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
I had forgotten to consider this. But I'm actually exceedingly confused now, and I'm hoping someone can come in and translate the whole thing (from about 17:45 to 18:20). I think what people have written in this thread versus what I am hearing in the cast is bewildering my mind. With my subpar Korean, what I am gathering is that the attack range is longer. If I'm not mistaken, at 17:45, trOt explains that tanks have greater (or longer) attack range (I think more accurately-translated: shooting or firing) from top to bottom and from left to right. He says "쏘는게". The "쏘" part means means "shoot" or "fire". Now, I'm not entirely sure what he says at 18:00 (halp), but at about 18:12 he explains about positioning. Again, if I'm not mistaken, he says that the best position to be is at your opponent's 11.
I'm really hoping someone clears up my confusion. Honestly, maybe the best way to improve your game really is to learn Korean.
I'm not a native Korean speaker myself, but I listened to the explanation again and it seems that Cryoc was right. The commentator says "시야" meaning outlook, view, sight. So it is the range of sight that is longer in two directions than in the respective opposite directions.
Edit: Also, you got the part right, about the best attack position being at your opponent's 11 o'clock. But the additional comments given in this thread also need to be considered, about the tank cannon having to turn when attacking from 11 to 5.
You're correct. I listened again to his explanation at 18:00 and he does say "시야". I'm going to assume he was correcting himself. Honestly, I'm still hoping for a more complete translation. But now that I think about it, tanks having a greater attack range from one position versus another seems to be too massive an imbalance for any player to remain ignorant about, especially any Terran player. It makes more sense to give added sight range.
edit: I do wonder how this affects outcomes of non-mirror matchups though, noticeable or negligible? If the sight range is longer at two directions, it seems to be more advantageous to attack from the other two.
I listened to the video. Yes, Top side tank has the advantage, and left side tank has the advantage. It's more hard to calculate tank distance for the right side to attack left side. Units also get clumsy(is this the right word that I can describe?).
Therefore, 11 o'clock side tank will have the advantage.
Just to clear this up: trOt seems to say that the attack range and sight range are longer in the video. But (and this is brought up in the thread) the attack range itself isn't longer, only sight range is increased. The attack range is only enhanced by the increased sight range. Added sight, added range. This is because the attack range of a sieged tank exceeds its sight range. Since sight range is longer at two directions, the sieged tank can leverage this added range. It's not far enough that the other player will be unable to siege without being blown to scrap metal, but it's still a useful advantage.
I wonder if anyone has used turret misdirection in a progame before and I just haven't noticed, because it's an idea I've been playing with for a long time. Here's the scenario (I play Protoss mostly so it's my idea in PvT but can be applied to other races potentially also). Let's say you let Terran contain you outside your 10 o'clock natural on FS. Let's say Terran has covered his Tank line with a lot of Turrets, but not as many elsewhere. His Siege Tank cannons are facing NW towards where your troops will be coming from.
To bust out, you can't risk your only/already damaged/slow/whatever Shuttle against the 5+ Turrets that are right on top of the Tanks. But, you can drop a Zealot, even a Probe within Siege range to the SE of the Tank line. The Siege Tank cannons turn, and fire off a round at the Zealot/Probe. Your troops have already been timed to start running at the Tank line as soon as the Probe drops.
I know that using SCVs to take the first few hits from Siege Tanks while the opposing Terran sieges HIS Tanks in range of the containing ones is a common strategy, as is bombing, but I wonder if this has been used as well. I guess in most situations, bombing the line is the better option as well, but what if it's no possible, like in the scenario I described above?
Is this tiny window possible to exploit in this way? Have progamers done this?
sounds like flanking lol if you're going in a for a battle then usually you wanna commit everything anyway so might aswell chuck that shuttle in too to give your flanking zealots an extra few steps towards the tanks, imo
On September 11 2015 06:34 Cryoc wrote: Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it. Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
That being said, testing I've done suggests that attack range /target acquisition range is not a perfect circle either. it is slightly larger in top left and top right directions than in bottom left/right directions... It's really hard to exactly quantify this, though...
Is the vision range discrepancy/asymmetry actually a Siege-Tank-specific thing? I would assume that it probably applies to all units, but does not have much effect as except for Siege Tanks, vision range is generally higher than attack/target acquisition range.
I wonder if anyone has used turret misdirection in a progame before and I just haven't noticed, because it's an idea I've been playing with for a long time. Here's the scenario (I play Protoss mostly so it's my idea in PvT but can be applied to other races potentially also). Let's say you let Terran contain you outside your 10 o'clock natural on FS. Let's say Terran has covered his Tank line with a lot of Turrets, but not as many elsewhere. His Siege Tank cannons are facing NW towards where your troops will be coming from.
To bust out, you can't risk your only/already damaged/slow/whatever Shuttle against the 5+ Turrets that are right on top of the Tanks. But, you can drop a Zealot, even a Probe within Siege range to the SE of the Tank line. The Siege Tank cannons turn, and fire off a round at the Zealot/Probe. Your troops have already been timed to start running at the Tank line as soon as the Probe drops.
I know that using SCVs to take the first few hits from Siege Tanks while the opposing Terran sieges HIS Tanks in range of the containing ones is a common strategy, as is bombing, but I wonder if this has been used as well. I guess in most situations, bombing the line is the better option as well, but what if it's no possible, like in the scenario I described above?
Is this tiny window possible to exploit in this way? Have progamers done this?
The problem is that tank turrets will rotate back as soon as there is a new target (i.e. any unit of your breaking-out army) in acquisition (and vision) range of the tanks. Since the turret rotation delay is minuscule, compared to a tank's loooooooong attack cooldown, it's unlikely that you'd gain any additional advantage out of it (compared to just any other attack misdirection).
On September 17 2015 23:01 varsovie wrote: I am not sure if the larva trick is 100% consitant in regard to the randomnes in larva pop.
There's a fixed respawn time for larvae as well as a fixed building time for units, no randomness at all. So as long as a player does not mess up their timings (i.e. start unit morphing as soon as larva is available) or is on resource/supply block, this is reliable. "Larva rick" is usually used to refer to something else, though!
On September 17 2015 23:01 varsovie wrote: I am not sure if the larva trick [i.e. predicting what's in the eggs] is 100% consistent in regard to the randomness in larva pop.
There's a fixed respawn time for larvae as well as a fixed building time for units, no randomness at all.
So as long as a player does not mess up their timings (i.e. start unit morphing as soon as larva is available) or is on resource/supply block, this is reliable.
"Larva trick" is usually used to refer to something else, though!
My understanding is that larvae respawn on average every 342 frames, aka 22.8 seconds on Normal game speed (14.25 secs on Fastest), and that there actually is a small bit of variability to it as well... plus or minus 24 frames/1.6 seconds on Normal (1 sec on Fastest).
Yeah, I've just read that. But it still doesn't have much bearing here: This slight variation is almost completely negligible most of the time (~7% relative difference, at most), whereas the build time difference between Zerglings and Drones is always noticeable and significant (~40%).
On September 20 2015 18:13 Freakling wrote: Yeah, I've just read that. But it still doesn't have much bearing here: This slight variation is almost completely negligible most of the time (~7% relative difference, at most), whereas the build time difference between Zerglings and Drones is always noticeable and significant (~40%).
No doubt. It's just that you don't want to post inaccurate info and have ppl read it and believe it. Thus the correction.
Granted, it's an inaccuracy that 99% of us have fallen for, myself included up 'til recently. I'm not sure even BWAPI has that one right.
I've watched bw matches in Korea with a friend who wished the commentators would just "shut up" because they talked so much about stuff "everybody knows about." This and many other seemingly esoteric things were probably common knowledge to the average Korean player/viewer when bw was at the height of its popularity. That's scary.
On September 22 2015 06:14 lemmata wrote: Nada recently offered this tip to viewers. It's a more entry-level tip, but it was new to me. + Show Spoiler +
Wow, that's cool. I actually never thought about that in terms of fighting mutas.
Vs lurkers, yes (obviously you'll get mowed down by the line splash if you go right at them), but not mutas.
On September 22 2015 06:14 lemmata wrote: Nada recently offered this tip to viewers. It's a more entry-level tip, but it was new to me. + Show Spoiler +
I read it a few times before realising that it wasn't a tip about controlling mutas :D
On September 22 2015 06:14 lemmata wrote: Nada recently offered this tip to viewers. It's a more entry-level tip, but it was new to me. + Show Spoiler +
I read it a few times before realising that it wasn't a tip about controlling mutas :D
On September 11 2015 06:34 Cryoc wrote: Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it.
Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
Geez, that's strange... I wonder why that is?
If I was to guess, it would be because the tank has a subunit with an offset and the subunit may have a sight radius. I don't have datedit on hand to confirm, though. Similarly, if this is why, goliaths and missile turrets may also have slightly odd (and less consequential) sight radii.
Siege Tanks have a tremendous amount of hardcoded stuff related to them and their transform sigorders that may also be partially responsible.
Also the few tidbits I've read from Korean commentators really amazes me on the details they seem casually aware of. I didn't even know that and I had modded the game for over a decade.
Wow, this really reminds me of a quote that is used often in Chess. Every Russian schoolboy knows (enter advanced Chess topic) meaning what seemed like an advanced idea for Western players were common knowledge to even young Russian Chess pupils.
On September 11 2015 05:12 GeLaar wrote: The commentator notes that Last has a positional advantage, because a Siege Tank's range of sight (edited for correctness) is greater to its right than its left, and greater towards bottom than towards top. In other words, tanks attacking from 11 o'clock in the 5 o'clock direction will have an advantage over tanks attacking the other way around.
I hope this is interesting to some people. It sure was new to me.
This is true of marines in a bunker as well (at least in regards to shooting up vs down).
On September 11 2015 05:12 GeLaar wrote: The commentator notes that Last has a positional advantage, because a Siege Tank's range of sight (edited for correctness) is greater to its right than its left, and greater towards bottom than towards top. In other words, tanks attacking from 11 o'clock in the 5 o'clock direction will have an advantage over tanks attacking the other way around.
I hope this is interesting to some people. It sure was new to me.
This is true of marines in a bunker as well (at least in regards to shooting up vs down).
The shooting range of up and down is the consequence of the 'view' (isometric I think?) used by StarCraft and some other rts titles.
"isometric" is just the type of projection used to give a 3d impression on a 2d map. BroodWar is of course a purely 2d game. The effects discussed in this thread are not about any apparent differences due to the projection tricking your eyes, but about actual, measurable differences in absolute ranges.
I know what you mean, I'm not dumb. To clarify, I thought Blizzard reduced the range a bit on the 'up' shooting range to reinforce the isometric feel. After some testing, it seems it was kind of an illusion because the range is the same.
koreans are just way too good, its amazing and mind blowing, if only there more subbed casts, i remember watching a subbed vod where the commentators mentioned that when u scout a new expansion u can click on the mineral parchs to see long its been there for but these tips are even more high level, thanks so much
This is disgusting and amazing at the same time thinking about the amount of knowledge this game has to offer and how much you need to play it accurately. Soon they will offer MBA for starcraft studies. And on the other hand its so unfair koreans have access to multiple cast and amazing information shared accross the comunity. Everytime im watching korean cast with english subtitles i feel like im learning more then actually playing the game/studying it on my own, that is faster progress. Fortunetely this disadvantage is only getting smaller in recent year due to more koreans sharing knowledge for foregigners like scan does. Playing this game for 20 years and still getting to know new things that are just basics for normal korean feels akward. One more of this tricks that comes to my mind is where lurker with deal double damage of its spines just at the moment of death. I dont have a source right now , but remeber reading it old time ago and it actually works like that , when lurker die and is able to throw the spikes at the last moment of its death it will deal like double damage. Was reccently watching a pro video and it happened the guy was curious why all the marines died in 1 shot like a pack of them with 1 spke. Think even someone as experience can sometimes be buffled by the game engine.
EPT
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something else![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tzdyh0l.png)
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