So I was going through my considerable backlog of unwatched VODs recently, and got to Spotimes Starleague's Ro16 Group D games. In two of the games the commentator gives some tips that I thought might be interesting to translate and share, although perhaps these are well-known facts.
1. In game 1, Hero vs. Jaehoon ( ), at 03:49 (of the VOD), Jaehoon's Probe finds its way into Hero's main, and the commentator says (approx. transl.):
"Jaehoon will now check whether Hero is making Drones or Zerglings. The viewers may not know this, but it at this time in the game it is possible to know what the Zerg is making, by checking whether another Larva is coming out while the eggs are morphing. Because the build time difference between Zerglings and Drones, a new Larva will pop out if Zerglings are being made. (If there Drones are being made, there will not be a new Larva before the eggs hatch.)"
In other words, it is possible, with the right timing, to actually tell what's inside the morphing eggs of the Zerg player!
2. In game 2, Last vs. Bishop ( ), at around 17:44 (of the VOD), Last is containing Bishop with a line of tanks that is oriented from bottom-left to top-right. The commentator notes that Last has a positional advantage, because a Siege Tank's range of sight (edited for correctness) is greater to its right than its left, and greater towards bottom than towards top. In other words, tanks attacking from 11 o'clock in the 5 o'clock direction will have an advantage over tanks attacking the other way around.
I hope this is interesting to some people. It sure was new to me.
Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it. Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
On September 11 2015 06:34 Cryoc wrote: Thanks for the knowledge, however the tidbit about the siege tank is not correct as you stated it.
Siege tanks have the same attack range in every direction, but their sight range is a little bit bigger to the right and bottom than to the top and left.
The first trick is super cool, but the second one is mind-blowing. It makes me want to rewatch all pro games ever played to see if it impacted the players' strategies at some point.
I haven't watched the videos, but yes. Absolutely correct about the fact that what the eggs are being made. It also affects the build timing. This fact is very important in 2v2 match up and makes a difference between a good zerg and bad zerg. To show this fact more clear, here is a great example that I can provide for the readers. In 2v2, it's about timing, and you cannot play half all-in and half economic style as a zerg player.
About the uses of siege mode, maybe I did not understand the sentence, so I will listen to the vod later.
As for tanks, when tanks siege from top vs tanks siege from bottom, the ones from bottom will fire quicker as they don't have to rotate the canons. (they win)
Larva spawn thing is very common for all zergs that play ZvZ especially. When you constantly spawn drones, the drone spawns just a moment after a larva comes out. For zerglings this is extended. It's also possible to tell if there are mutas in the egg, as this takes even longer than zerglings. Ultralisks spawn just before 2nd larva is spawned.
On September 11 2015 05:58 sabas123 wrote: what the fuck, I never realized that you could see if a drone or zergling was made by larva timing.
Time to start learning korean again.
To clarify: yes, the timing involves larva, but it's more important to realize that one unit takes longer to spawn from an egg than another (that is, unit build timing). That's the key. That's what the commentator (former progamer trOt, if I'm not mistaken) is essentially saying in the cast.
My Korean is terrible, but here's my translation: Park Sung-jin [trOt]: "Here's a tip: There's a way to tell if these [eggs] are zerglings or drones." Seo Yeon-ji: "How?" Park Sung-jin: "If they are zerglings, a larva will pop out [or spawn]." [larva spawns] Seo Yeon-ji: "Like that. These are zerglings." [zerglings pop] Park Sung-jin: "If the larva doesn't pop out, they are drones." Seo Yeon-ji: "Really?" Park Sung-jin: "Because the build timings are different, in the case of zerglings, a larva will spawn, in the case of drones, a larva will not spawn. Amazing, right?" Seo Yeon-ji: "Yeah!"
It's something, of course, that all players know intuitively but are not thinking about all the time consciously. I doubt most of us here bother to check unit build timings and larva spawn timings. I don't see this [edit: this particular little trick, anyway; be super-serial about timings in general] as something that's going to be decisively game-changing in the grand scheme, but it's useful if you really want to save that scout. It might also be useful for ZvZ. Nevertheless, it is definitely something cool to keep a mindfulness about.
[edit: I just read Scan's post, and it seems I've been preempted by the gosu player.]
The second tip really floored me though. I've played this game since it's been out and I'm still learning things about it. This is the kind of factor that has the power to alter the game. Just amazing. It's kind of shameful because (and I'm hoping my seventh-grade level Korean is correct) trOt says during the cast that a lot of people know this, and I think even Seo Yeon-ji says she learned it (from somewhere, but I have no idea where because the usefulness of my Korean ends at the playground).
This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
On September 11 2015 22:32 zimp wrote: This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
I had forgotten to consider this. But I'm actually exceedingly confused now, and I'm hoping someone can come in and translate the whole thing (from about 17:45 to 18:20). I think what people have written in this thread versus what I am hearing in the cast is bewildering my mind. With my subpar Korean, what I am gathering is that the attack range is longer. If I'm not mistaken, at 17:45, trOt explains that tanks have greater (or longer) attack range (I think more accurately-translated: shooting or firing) from top to bottom and from left to right. He says "쏘는게". The "쏘" part means means "shoot" or "fire". Now, I'm not entirely sure what he says at 18:00 (halp), but at about 18:12 he explains about positioning. Again, if I'm not mistaken, he says that the best position to be is at your opponent's 11.
I'm really hoping someone clears up my confusion. Honestly, maybe the best way to improve your game really is to learn Korean.
On September 11 2015 22:32 zimp wrote: This is a great example of a reason why korean players are better in general, and they have an advantage over foreigns. By understanding the casts, they learn a lot about the game.
As for the tank thing, kogeT's post has some extra info over the op and what Cyroc wrote. I don't know if they are correct, but if they are, then it goes like this: If both players have extended vision (scanned or barracks, etc), and the tanks are sieged up at the same time, then tanks from the bottom right will shoot faster (because they don't have to turn), but if neither player has extended vision, and the tanks are sieged up at the right distance, then the tanks at the top left will shoot faster (because they can see them from a little further away). This way the two imbalances somewhat balance each other out.
I had forgotten to consider this. But I'm actually exceedingly confused now, and I'm hoping someone can come in and translate the whole thing (from about 17:45 to 18:20). I think what people have written in this thread versus what I am hearing in the cast is bewildering my mind. With my subpar Korean, what I am gathering is that the attack range is longer. If I'm not mistaken, at 17:45, trOt explains that tanks have greater (or longer) attack range (I think more accurately-translated: shooting or firing) from top to bottom and from left to right. He says "쏘는게". The "쏘" part means means "shoot" or "fire". Now, I'm not entirely sure what he says at 18:00 (halp), but at about 18:12 he explains about positioning. Again, if I'm not mistaken, he says that the best position to be is at your opponent's 11.
I'm really hoping someone clears up my confusion. Honestly, maybe the best way to improve your game really is to learn Korean.
I'm not a native Korean speaker myself, but I listened to the explanation again and it seems that Cryoc was right. The commentator says "시야" meaning outlook, view, sight. So it is the range of sight that is longer in two directions than in the respective opposite directions.
Edit: Also, you got the part right, about the best attack position being at your opponent's 11 o'clock. But the additional comments given in this thread also need to be considered, about the tank cannon having to turn when attacking from 11 to 5.
EPT
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