EPTWhen should I expand?
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marmistrz
9 Posts
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
protoss: 12 supply terran: 14 supply | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
edit: Here's the build I really like to use. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/14_Nexus_(vs._Terran) | ||
Falling
Canada11572 Posts
I for, instance, always open 1 gate, expand so I have a couple goons out before my first expo goes down in my natural. Quite than the build IntoTheheart prefers. (Of course it will also depend if you are under heavy early pressure.) Or do you mean getting your third and fourth base? | ||
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LML
Germany1794 Posts
On October 01 2014 01:37 marmistrz wrote: It's always difficult to me to find that moment when I should expand. I usually sit in my motherbase for too long. When should I expand? (the question applies to all combinations of races) go play Fastest Map Possible. Problem solved. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 01 2014 01:37 marmistrz wrote: It's always difficult to me to find that moment when I should expand. I usually sit in my motherbase for too long. When should I expand? (the question applies to all combinations of races) You should always expand as soon as possible, as early as possible. Sometimes, you even double expand. With that being said, how do we determine when it becomes 'possible' to expand? Well, here are some ideas for you to mess around with: Blind approach: Just be greedy and make a nexus/CC/hatchery before any other building and see what happens. This is especially good if you're playing against the computer. Scouting approach: Early in the game, you will send one worker unit to every spawn location on the map. This will allow you to see what your opponent is doing very early in game, allowing you to see if they themselves are going for an early attack or a later attack or fast expanding themselves. If you see some kind of early aggression, then you'll know to build the appropriate amount of defense. If you don't see early aggression, then you'll know you can build your economy and tech tree a bit quicker, then lay down a bit of defense. Attacking approach: In this case, you scout your opponent with a worker, then prepare to be aggressive against them early. You won't need a massive army because in the early game, they should also have very little amounts of army. Then, as you send your army to attack them, you simultaneously build an expansion. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On October 01 2014 04:00 ninazerg wrote: You should always expand as soon as possible, as early as possible. Sometimes, you even double expand. That is an oversimplification. You want to work towards a plan, and you want this plan to be solid rather than gimmicky. You can certainly do things like 1 gateway 1 stargate expand in PvZ rather than forge expand. Or 2 gate robo on maps with exposed naturals and third bases in PvT. You get later expansions, but as long as you're hurting him as much or (preferably) more than you are hurting yourself, that's fine. Edit: I just read about your attacking approach. Fine.  Anyway, there is no simple answer to this. The question is too broad for any meaningful answer. Vague and broad questions receive vague and broad answers. For example, two answers to your question are: 1: You can expand as early as is possible without dying, to secure as strong of an economy for yourself as possible. 2: You can expand at the moment that lets you execute a plan which, in the future, will give you some sort of advantage (this advantage could be many different things). For example, you could tech to arbiters from two bases and use that somehow, instead of rushing to a third. You need to provide a replay and ask more specific questions if you want more useful answers. A decent way to start, however, is to try to get a second base as fast as possible. Experiment and see how early you can get away with it. If you die to something as a result of your fast expansion, watch the replay and analyze it. Try to come up with a solution that either deals with it blindly without handicapping you, or that lets you scout and adapt in time for it. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 01 2014 04:30 vOdToasT wrote: That is an oversimplification. You want to work towards a plan, and you want this plan to be solid rather than gimmicky. You can certainly do things like 1 gateway 1 stargate expand in PvZ rather than forge expand. Or 2 gate robo on maps with exposed naturals and third bases in PvT. You get later expansions, but as long as you're hurting him as much or (preferably) more than you are hurting yourself, that's fine. Edit: I just read about your attacking approach. Fine. Anyway, there is no simple answer to this. The question is too broad for any meaningful answer. Vague and broad questions receive vague and broad answers. For example, two answers to your question are: 1: You can expand as early as is possible without dying, to secure as strong of an economy for yourself as possible. 2: You can expand at the moment that lets you execute a plan which, in the future, will give you some sort of advantage (this advantage could be many different things). For example, you could tech to arbiters from two bases and use that somehow, instead of rushing to a third. You need to provide a replay and ask more specific questions if you want more useful answers. A decent way to start, however, is to try to get a second base as fast as possible. Experiment and see how early you can get away with it. If you die to something as a result of your fast expansion, watch the replay and analyze it. Try to come up with a solution that either deals with it blindly without handicapping you, or that lets you scout and adapt in time for it. When I read the original post, the way he explained his question led me to believe that he is very new to StarCraft. If he spends a good chunk of time on one base, not expanding, he either has a low-economy style of play, or plays "nooby", either over-building defense on one base, or building a lot of army on one base very slowly and not moving out until he's almost mined out. I dunno. It's a vague question, so I could only give a generalized explanation, with the key word being 'possible', meaning there will be certain times where the possibility of expanding while playing a good game drops dramatically. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On October 01 2014 07:13 ninazerg wrote: When I read the original post, the way he explained his question led me to believe that he is very new to StarCraft. If he spends a good chunk of time on one base, not expanding, he either has a low-economy style of play, or plays "nooby", either over-building defense on one base, or building a lot of army on one base very slowly and not moving out until he's almost mined out. I dunno. It's a vague question, so I could only give a generalized explanation, with the key word being 'possible', meaning there will be certain times where the possibility of expanding while playing a good game drops dramatically. Your post was actually good advice in my opinion | ||
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ExBoshy
118 Posts
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
I would recommend playing on these more recent standard maps than the old school "expansion" maps like Destination and Fighting Spirit. | ||
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neptunusfisk
2286 Posts
On October 01 2014 17:17 Pucca wrote: With recent maps like Neo Legacy of Char it makes very difficult to expand quickly. That being said if you want a throwback to the old old days of Brood War look no further than Fighting Spirit, but sadly no one likes to play on it anymore. Recent maps on ladder include Neo Legacy of Char, Neo Hall of Vallhalla and my person favorite in recent times Ragnarok. I would recommend playing on these more recent standard maps than the old school "expansion" maps like Destination and Fighting Spirit. Woah, when did FS get unpopular? Wasn't it still going strong half a year ago? | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
Similarly, if you feel confident enough with your army to move out on the map, that usually means you can take an expo at the same time. He has to deal with your army, so although it's possible for him to counter, you should be able to defend that counter and still put pressure on him. This rule is normally simplified for dumb Protoss players to just 'take your third when you move out with your army.' Of course, there are numerous builds that will get you your natural expansion quickly. It's just like motherbase, so you don't need very much as long as you don't make big mistakes. That's the real answer to your question. Think of situations in which you don't think your opponent can kill you in the next 2 minutes. That's usually a situation when you can expand. If you don't expand in such a situation, it's because you have a special strategy and you don't want to spare the minerals for it. As a secondary note, there are lots of ways to get a very large defenders advantage at particular points in the game, and sometimes it even depends on the map. With Terran, you want mines and you want supply depots in the way of where someone would attack your expansion (against protoss). With Zerg, you want lurkers and dark swarm to defend a choke point (vs terran especially, but vs protoss too). Learning all these different defensive positions is part of becoming skilled at the game. Another example is protoss just piling cannons at the top of a ramp, or putting gateways infront of their cannons vs Zerg. Things like this will help you expand throughout the game. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 06 2014 05:54 Sero wrote: I'm assuming that Pucca is joking, but it's hard to tell with him sometimes. FS is still by far the most popular map. Yeah, his sense of humor is like D- level. Incidentally, Liquid`Nazgul said once that Neo Legacy of Char is the worst map ever made. I disagree; I think Luna is trash. I understand the appeal of FS though, because it allows bad players to abuse the map and win games that they shouldn't, which is why when they get destroyed on any other map, they go "go re fs?" which is some pussy shit, because if I lost on one map, and I said "Go re on Neo Electric Circuit?" they would instantly refuse. | ||
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
On October 08 2014 13:41 ninazerg wrote: Yeah, his sense of humor is like D- level. Incidentally, Liquid`Nazgul said once that Neo Legacy of Char is the worst map ever made. I disagree; I think Luna is trash. I understand the appeal of FS though, because it allows bad players to abuse the map and win games that they shouldn't, which is why when they get destroyed on any other map, they go "go re fs?" which is some pussy shit, because if I lost on one map, and I said "Go re on Neo Electric Circuit?" they would instantly refuse. Woah there, time to take a minute and relax gal. You need to legit serious reconsider what you just said. If you can't, considering jumping off a bridge. I mean you'd be doing everyone a favor. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 08 2014 15:53 Pucca wrote: Woah there, time to take a minute and relax gal. You need to legit serious reconsider what you just said. If you can't, considering jumping off a bridge. I mean you'd be doing everyone a favor. There's a little wooden bridge over the creek. One time, I hopped off of it and made big splash in the water. That being said, I have taken some time to reconsider what I had said, and have decided that it was appropriate. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On October 08 2014 13:41 ninazerg wrote: I understand the appeal of FS though, because it allows bad players to abuse the map and win games that they shouldn't. Lol, that's my general strategy. I think lots of people are best on FS because they just happen to practice it the most though. Then again Electric Circuit is a really good map, so IDK why they'd dodge that one. What do you have against Luna? It's not so bad. | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
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Pucca
Taiwan1280 Posts
On October 09 2014 01:47 ninazerg wrote: There's a little wooden bridge over the creek. One time, I hopped off of it and made big splash in the water. That being said, I have taken some time to reconsider what I had said, and have decided that it was appropriate. Why be a generic ass hole to me? What did ever to you? For once in your life, stop with the foreplay and either be direct, or shut up. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On October 09 2014 08:47 Pucca wrote: Why be a generic ass hole to me? What did ever to you? For once in your life, stop with the foreplay and either be direct, or shut up. lolwut | ||
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GrimwulfSC2
Canada43 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On October 08 2014 13:41 ninazerg wrote: Yeah, his sense of humor is like D- level. Incidentally, Liquid`Nazgul said once that Neo Legacy of Char is the worst map ever made. I disagree; I think Luna is trash. I understand the appeal of FS though, because it allows bad players to abuse the map and win games that they shouldn't, which is why when they get destroyed on any other map, they go "go re fs?" which is some pussy shit, because if I lost on one map, and I said "Go re on Neo Electric Circuit?" they would instantly refuse. You're both wrong, DMZ is literally the worst map ever. | ||
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Sero
United States692 Posts
On October 13 2014 02:57 Elyvilon wrote: You're both wrong, DMZ is literally the worst map ever. Are there any VoDs of games on that map? I want to see some SCV rushes. | ||
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On October 13 2014 10:11 Sero wrote: Are there any VoDs of games on that map? I want to see some SCV rushes. dunno what happens in the game, youtubed "dmz proleague" and found it there | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On October 11 2014 08:34 GrimwulfSC2 wrote: Expand when you can defence it. No, you take expand first, then defence it. | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
On October 13 2014 14:02 ninazerg wrote: No, you take expand first, then defence it. No, you time the expand so, that when it's 100% ready you can defend it. | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
forge -> cannon -> nexus | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On October 19 2014 22:34 SnowFantasy wrote: No, you actually defence it and then take expand forge -> cannon -> nexus I'm more impartial to the expand then expand then defense it part 3 hatch zvp | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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ProdiGY_DE
Germany19 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 26 2014 06:01 Hatterluke wrote: I expand at 4mins i hope thats not wrong or bad. :D There's no wrong or right answer imo so long as you aren't expanding with like 5 workers or something lol since you also need to be able to defend the expansion otherwise you'll lose it and the game soon after. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1728 Posts
everything you need to know about how to take a fourth safely in z v p bellow : Jaedong OZ ZvP replaypack from 2010 november http://www.mediafire.com/?rk5jcjdj1nigsz5 | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11287 Posts
Expand when you control the pace of the game (when you are the one doing the attacking). If you think you have the advantage and can spare some resources, expand. Expand when you see your enemy expand. As much as possible, check to see if the guy has enough units to pressure you. Either way, just prepare to defend your expo. | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
Or, sooner than you can, while making your opponent either 1) expand himself (via things such as gas steal) 2) micro so hard in his base he can't counterattack (requires Bisu probes and early aggression) 3) delay attacking by chasing your unit(s) or 3) believe you are making a lot of units | ||
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seom
South Africa491 Posts
often a good idea is to take your third as you move out with your first big attack, but if you are planning a semi all-inish timing attack you might not want to take that expo so you have more minerals to spend on units to rally to his nat, for example. sometimes a double expand is also good idea, but it is race, map and build order dependant and obviously depends on what is happening in the game. you could write a whole book on timing expansions, there's no rule of thumb. | ||
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iamcasey
Norway202 Posts
On October 11 2014 08:34 GrimwulfSC2 wrote: Expand when you can defence it. GRIMWULF for president !! | ||
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Jaded.
United States125 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On October 19 2014 22:34 SnowFantasy wrote: No, you actually defence it and then take expand forge -> cannon -> nexus No you defence your main with cannons then take the expansion after. Then use that to defence your main base better. | ||
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art_of_turtle
United States1206 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
Please answer him properly if you can help him. You need a plan. It can roughly be : greedy (expand early and risk losing to aggressive play), safe (expanding when you know you are safe by scouting the opponent and having defenses/an army) or not expanding at all (doing some aggressive play yourself) Then you can narrow down the question to : If I want to play safely, when should I expand? in PvZ that will be after you get your forge and 2 cannons, or more if you scout more than 6 lings. etc OP i recommend you to watch some day9 to get a good foundation to all these questions as I'm not good enough to go through all the scenarios. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/335184-day-bw-dailies | ||
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Dan26
Australia239 Posts
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Regis
Poland109 Posts
MCA: Banned from TL, creator of MCA launcher. Still has yet to post source code to github. why i must put source code to github? I never said it will be open source. But you can see some parts there https://github.com/mca64 User was banned for this post. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5185 Posts
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