EPTDiscussion bout balance in Starcraft NOT BROODWAR - Page 3
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Grumel
Germany88 Posts
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MyTHicaL
France1070 Posts
I really cant imagine a game on LT where P>Z must feel so wierd :/ as a toss player i cringe when i see an ultra... they should take away speed upgrade :D. | ||
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k3fka
Argentina1267 Posts
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twipley
8 Posts
Which patch do you people think is the most balanced for vanilla? The latest one (1.16.1) is generally considered the most-balanced for Brood War, but are not some of the adjustments made after expansion release causing imbalances to vanilla? Should one therefore stick to pre-expansion-era patches? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 14 2014 03:42 twipley wrote: I have searched everywhere on the web for this, so I am coming here and bumping this thread to further this discussion. Which patch do you people think is the most balanced for vanilla? The latest one (1.16.1) is generally considered the most-balanced for Brood War, but are not some of the adjustments made after expansion release causing imbalances to vanilla? Should one therefore stick to pre-expansion-era patches? i think they quit doing balance patches in like 1.07 and the others are just bug fixes and shit like that | ||
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twipley
8 Posts
One can follow the link to see the list of changes it brought up. It balanced Brood War, but there seems to be no discussion at all on the web on the subject of its implications to vanilla balance. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On September 14 2014 08:49 twipley wrote: I just searched (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_version_history) and 1.08 was where they quit balancing the game. That patch was released about 30 months after expansion release. One can follow the link to see the list of changes it brought up. It balanced Brood War, but there seems to be no discussion at all on the web on the subject of its implications to vanilla balance. Broodwar itself was a balance patch to Vanilla you cant forget that. | ||
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twipley
8 Posts
But personally (and I'm sure there are others like me), I've always been attracted to vanilla more than to BW. It would be interesting to hear people with experience playing 1.02 (the last balance patch before BW), for example, compare that vs 1.08/1.16 vanilla. Does the BW-intended patches, when applied to vanilla, bring some obvious imbalances? | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
Zerg would probably be even more broken than it is considered to be in vanilla now for these reasons: Terran in 1.08: More expensive turrets No goliath range Science facility takes more time to build Goliaths do less damage Medics don't exist either since it is vanilla --> Zerg will just collect free wins with 2-hatch muta Protoss in 1.08: Zealots are weaker (more shields less health) Storm does more damage Dragoon builds faster -> Protoss mid-late game might be stronger with bigger dragoon armies and stronger storms --> Zerg has much stronger all-ins with hydralisk speed being cheaper and spawning pools costing 150 (could you just 5pool every game with weaker zealots?) 1.08 vanilla is definitely worse IMO | ||
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twipley
8 Posts
I've just found out this thread -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/195342-iccup-event-sc-vanilla-tournament?view=all -- the last post there may well be worth a quote: On February 24 2011 01:55 blue001 wrote: TvZ might not be imba. Think about it young fellows. Mutalisks will be strong but since there are no medics they have to spend all that gas somewhere. WHERE will it go? VESSELS~! or cloaked wraiths. Making mutalisks ineffective. ALSO u can bunker mineral lines if hes going all in mutalisks and wait for vessel. Obviously you're not going to push out against fast mutalisks. But when you have vessel and a huge huge marine ball what are they going to do now that there's no lurkers and ultralisks are very weak? While you have tankss marines vessels and possibly mines. I think it'll be fun to watch for sure. TvP not too much change, infact you guys say goliath range will hurt T. This is true. BUT no DTS which means you can spend all your scans to know exactly what hes doing without worrying about needing it to scan for dt. So you know when he's going to go carriers. Also you won't need turrets at all, to protect against DT rush, meaning you can go for a much later ebay when u do a timing push or something. PvZ a lot of change. Corsair DTs are really good at harassing the zerg. Without them I don't know. HOWEVER no lurkers you dont have to get observers, AND zealots will be far more effective, which will probably mean toss players will skip the stargates since theres no useful units to build out of there, but that means faster zealot and +1 which will do really well since no lurkers, zealots are gonna be really strong. I predict mass gateway army of zealot templars since no lurker, possibly reavers. The problem is mutalisk... but no matter you can morph those templars into archons =] ZvZ and TvT no change at all PvP removes DT opening which means it changes the early game! Plus, I'd guess firebats could be used as a viable means to protect from zergling attacks. I haven't played the game since 1999 or so though, therefore it is more in "mind" than anything else! | ||
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SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
Going two port Wraiths sound nice but then you realize they basically always follow it up with a marine+medic timing and you wouldn't have medics. It's a timing thing that makes it extremely hard for Terran to defend. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On September 15 2014 06:07 SnowFantasy wrote: You're highly unlikely to get a vessel out because you would have to make like 5 turrets and science facility takes longer to build. Going two port Wraiths sound nice but then you realize they basically always follow it up with a marine+medic timing and you wouldn't have medics. It's a timing thing that makes it extremely hard for Terran to defend. You could do the 1 - 1 - 1. The build that Light did a lot. You'll have cloaked wraiths in time for the mutas, then turrets, marines, and wraiths, and very fast vessels. This is a build in Brood War that doesn't rely very much on medics or valkyries to stop mutalisks, and if successful, it leaves you in a good position with two bases, and tanks and vessels available. From there, you can go marine tank vessel. Once you get enough tanks, you can dominate until Zerg gets not only dark swarm, but also ultralisks. I used to assume that the original StarCraft would just be unplayably imbalanced. Mutalisks would just dominate without corsairs or medics. But the more I thought about it, the more playable it seemed. I don't play Protoss any longer, so I can't think of any good Protoss solutions to mutalisks. But I do know that since you won't need to spend any gas on robotics due to one single lurker (or simply the threat of lurkers) you can focus entirely on defending against mutalisks. Maybe a forge FE in to 7 gate dragoon with cannons like missile turrets? One could argue that without the corsair, you can't scout to know that the mutalisks are even coming. But Zerg almost has to go mutalisks. Mutas to snipe templars with mass hydralisks for everything else, and mass muta ling with sunkens at all expos, are the only ways to deal with high templars, since you can't fight the Protoss army straight up with lurker hydra ling. If he just goes mass hydralisks, all you have to do is survive, get a good deathball going, and then dominate the rest of the game. If you survive, you're a lot stronger than in Brood War. Without lurkers, the only way that Zerg can fight a high economy Protoss is mass hydralisks, with mutalisks to snipe templars. This doesn't work forever. It gets worse the larger your army gets, so you could just turtle and play like you're Terran against Protoss. If it goes to late game, Zerg seems disadvantaged. There are no lurkers, so getting there from the midgame is harder, and ultralisks are weaker because of the lack of the +2 armour upgrade. On the other hand, Zerg could go mass muta with mass sunkens on all of the expansions and just counter attack you every time you move out. You would need to leave like 2 archons and a templar at every base, with lots of cannons everywhere, and this could make up for the lack of lurkers, letting him stick with hydra muta or ling muta for a longer time than would be possible in BW. I don't think Zerg is as broken in vanilla as people generally assume. Honestly, I feel like playing some vanilla. It would be an interesting experience. | ||
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