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1st of all Vanilla=starcraft without the xpansion broodwar
well i was arguing the other day with a couple of guys in op ugtour (europe server , vanilla ladder)about the balance issues.
Most of the vanilla games (99%) are played in lost temple so my arguments will suppose the game is in lost temple.
i personally consider the following in vanilla:
Z vs T is imbalanced in zergs favour: Mutas are damn versatile in vanilla considering terran doesnt have unlimited stim , there for , the harrass part is better.
Guardians rape marines so easily (even more with the cliffs and the centre temple) and hydras do a good work vs marines. Not even mentioning the use of defilers with swarm and plague. Not much to argue here.
P vs t in my opinion is balanced. The only difference is protoss having less resources to cheese (hence DTs). However , we got another significant change here that is carriers. At 1st sight people will tend to say protoss rapes terran in vanilla since goliaths dont have long ranged missiles. However this isnt entirely true. Protoss doesnt have corsairs in vanilla also , so wraiths can counter carriers pretty effectively. However , in my opinion its a bit harder since a mixture of goon templar zea carrier would be rather hard to stop.
and finally P vs Z , the most polemic matchup: Many say its zerg favoured , many say its balanced , many say its protoss favoured. So imma list the arguments of all parts:
The ones that claim its favoured for zerg usually say that the use of guardians in vanilla , without having corsairs , makes the matchup rather easy in LT. Plus you can take the islands pretty easy and defend them even easier. (my personal opinion is that guardians are hard to stop but...)
In the group of the protoss rapes zerg , myself included , ppl tend say its a pain in the ass to beat a protoss in vanilla for the following reasons:
1st- No lurkers: zealots obliterate everything. You cant contain nor drop the cliffs effectively. A good army of archon zea temp will rape you easy. So the solution ppl use is going mass hydras but: Hydras need a lot of micro to be effective against protoss. You need to dodge the storms , get the zealots away from the goons , etc. Lt isnt a map where the micro is particulary easy (like luna or the very open maps). You have that sucky temple in the middle which make things easier for the P. And the last but not least is ultras dont have speed nor armor upgrade This makes ultras uber slow to counter attacks (meaning if the p attacks one of ur exp , by the time you counter one of his , he might already be getting there). plus fighting a 200/200 protoss is almost impossible without using hordes of hydra ling + defilers(even using this its hard).
So i want opinions and plz dont flame me for this thread , i know there have been like infinite threads of balance issues , but i havent seen none recently 1 bout vanilla).
and i would also like to see a good protoss face a good zerg in vanilla (midian vs testie , or twisted vs strafe or whatever) to see how it turns out.
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I remember when i used to play vanilla my strat for Z was De up with sunkens (about 5-7) then tech broodlings while harrassing with first 6 mutas, Tech Hive and Great Spire. Then finaly morph gaurds and brood any templars that opposed me. If they made scouts (lol) i made scourges, simple. It worked about 90% of the time i think.
Edit - I think i used the same basic strat vs T as well but got brood faster for tanks and mutas slower because terran usually has good AA automatically. I usualy started with some kind of 7 pool 6 ling offensive then De'ed up with sunks.
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What about the islands? WIth its plentiful resources and location, they can add quite an intreresting twist into the game.
Especially the balance issue.
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On June 21 2006 19:58 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I remember when i used to play vanilla my strat for Z was De up with sunkens (about 5-7) then tech broodlings while harrassing with first 6 mutas, Tech Hive and Great Spire. Then finaly morph gaurds and brood any templars that opposed me. If they made scouts (lol) i made scourges, simple. It worked about 90% of the time i think.
Edit - I think i used the same basic strat vs T as well but got brood faster for tanks and mutas slower because terran usually has good AA automatically. I usualy started with some kind of 7 pool 6 ling offensive then De'ed up with sunks.
fuck yo couch darkness.
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Heh i never played original, never even knew about this game until broodwar came out and my friend showed it to me.
But more to the topic, yea ima have to agree on everything u just wrote, i think the game was rigged for protoss and zerg until medics came into the game.
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mutaling is ridiculous in zvt vanilla
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On June 21 2006 21:31 Th_Terran wrote:
Heh i never played original, never even knew about this game until broodwar came out and my friend showed it to me.
But more to the topic, yea ima have to agree on everything u just wrote, i think the game was rigged for protoss and zerg until medics came into the game.
Dude, come on... its vanilla. Haha.
A friend of mine online says he thought brood war ruined the point of starcraft.
He said, nah, I don't need to heal the guys anyways, I never do. They give protoss a cheap fast weak unit(corsair) which ruins the whole point of protoss. And then they give zerg an expensive strong unit. (lurker or devourer)
Anyways I gave some sort of answer, meh doesnt matter much, but I havent played vanilla in forever.
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vanilla is good and only good for fmp, thats it. The end.
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i also believe P >>>>> Z on vanilla, hardcore. You would have to fucking turtle up not to die to zeal/archon/templar army, meaning no map control, so all you have is the muta harrass/drops. 4-5 cannons with templars will stop cold any muta harrassment. You make guards, ok, but by that time, protoss has probably outexpanded you since he has map control. GGNORE
ZvT, yes its ridiculously imba in favor of zerg. Mutaling is just way to strong.
PvT, i think its just about the same...
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Hmm. All i know for sure about sc original is that pvt on moneymaps is much more imbalanced then in broodwar. Thats so funny, this 10 barack marine death stim terras.
About lowmaps. I am pretty sure that z>>>>>t. Muta Ling is just deadly against this helpless medic and goliah range less terras.
Pvt is quite ok, carrier rock without goliat range, which overcompensates dts a little bit in my eyes, so a really sligh p advantage.
But i am afraid, i am not sure about pvz. For me personally, it can get pretty ugly in sc, because my pvz heavily depends on corsair, i am just so used to them. But my guess is that the thread creater is right, no lurker should overcompensate corsair/darktempler, and make a standard protoss player with good technical skill win vs zerg on the same skill level. But wait, lets remember that zvp on lt in broodwar favours zerg.
A major problem in judging sc balance is that sc mainly consist of moneymap players and rather inactive nostalgics that didnt hear anything about the last 5 years of gameplay development. So you basically know for sure, what style to expect. Masszealots Goons only in a pvp, masshydra or some 1 base shit in a pvz and some stupid atemps to kill your carrier with masswraits.
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Vatican City State1176 Posts
why is Starcraft Original called Vanilla??
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I totally agree with your analyse, Z>T easy, P=T but i think P>zerg quite easy since z is very predictible (hyd or muts).
How is your sc ladder working? is it with antihack?
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On June 22 2006 00:55 Sadir wrote:
why is Starcraft Original called Vanilla??
cuz vanilla is the standard flavor of all icecreams? O_O
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mass hydra / ling with 3 evo's was pretty much absolutely necessary in ZvP. Late game, it was Guardian + Hydra + crackling sometimes deflier to plague the army. Guardians were actually alot stronger in vanilla, due to a lack of corsair by protoss. Ultras were not that bad, but they were not massed, but rather mixed in with with hydra/ling etc, sorta like a shield to absorb the dmg. Think I remember in vanilla, storm was pretty damn strong, practically killed any unit with one hit.(THink even lurkers at some point :o)
think going goliath was common in tvz, and tvz was a combo of tank/vulture/marine/goliath/vessel. STim would only be used once and only in difficult situations. Wraith wouldn't be that bad, but it would slow down the rest of the tech. >< Mass Hydra/ling probably was a great build, maybe even mutas.
TvP the only issue is probably countering carriers TvP. Mass Carriers + obs was probably very difficult to stop. I bet people even went BCs in TvP to fight carriers, and macro/micro was not as established back then.
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Hm, i think the first guy, meant original sc nowadays, with nowadays unit costs and damage points and not the 150 Mineral Pool and 1 Psi Lurkder dead days. To bad i could never make use of the 150 pool. I think was already playing then, it just didnt make any difference for me on moneymaps against tosses^^
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storm still counters guardian too well for them to be gamebreaking imo
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metal still works nicely in TvP vanilla
only disadvantage is if toss gets to carriers (no gollie range), but that's fairly rare overall
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UGTour is an ideal place for vanilla players, for more information have a look on http://ugt.servegame.com/UGTOUR.html
It’s a ladder type tournament which the players must play on Penguin Plug.
Op UGTour on Europe. You must ask one of the admins to sign you up, if you want further information just send me a PM on teamliquid.net
Back on topic, I agree with k3fka, PvT is balanced and PvZ on Lost Temple is VERY difficult, I'm a regular player on this ladder and 60% of my losses are due to ZvP on Temple, it's extremely difficult to win if the zerg gamer plays it properly, I've used various strategies, but I still lose, generally a zerg gamer will play like this on LT.
- 3 hatch into mutas
- Two evo champers upgrading lings
- Upgrading drop availability
- Takes both islands
- Harassing the protoss and gradually teaching to hive
- Hive is completed, crack is researched
- Islands protected with sunks and nydus canal
- Mutas morphed into guards
- Attacks your natural with 8-9 guards
- Nexus dies, you counter his natural expansion
- Attacking his natural which is protected by 8 sunks and 2-2 crack lings
- Your army dies, guards attack the main base followed by streams of lings.
- GAME OVER
Majority of the TOP zerg gamers on Vanilla play like this, it’s extremely difficult to beat, other than that I find vanilla fun to play as I’m a natural Brood War player.
Also from what I’ve seen, StarCraft player’s style of play is a lot different compared to a Brood War player.
In my opinion I find TvZ quite entertaining on Vanilla and fairly balanced, but if played correctly it can be a nightmare, majority of vanilla players don’t play this matchup in the right way.
It should be played like this, 3 hatch into muta, followed by mass hydras with defiler and queen support, it’s unbeatable.
K3fka, are you v.S)WizaRdOfOz on UGT?
Great topic btw.!
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Elsi, you do realize that he consider Z as a little to strong in ZvP?
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i played vanilla after BW came out, i have to admit (yes, i feel ashamed) that i didn't like BW when it came out. The new units had too much impact on the game, changed everything around, but what's more important: they introduced about 10 new flavours of cheese. DT rush and Lurk rush being the most annoying, as well as mmf rushes new being much more effective vs early zerg.
So i played vanilla for about 1.5 years before there were no ppl at all still playing it and i switched over. I still HATE losing to DT rush tho, still don't prepare for it way too often.
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A little? It's huge when played on lost temple.
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I duno about most matchups, but PvZ where I know for sure lurks aren't coming would so EASY!!!. No containment, no need to worry about cliff lurks, detection, etc. It would be so straight-forward. And once I get a third expo (cuz no contain, remember?) I would have no problem getting a couple of socuts. They are no easier to counter with scourge than sairs, especialyl since you need 3 scourge to kill a scout. Storm/scout would counter guards easily.
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why the fuck is it called vanilla someone tell me.
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TvZ not that bad on reg SC. You can make just racks and pump marines with a few bats mixed in. ZvP I think is harder then TvZ anyway on Vanilla.
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What about the PvP imbalance I always mention?
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wtf i never said z>>>>p. I said P>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Z on vanilla -.-v
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Calgary25980 Posts
On June 22 2006 08:52 tKd_ wrote:
why the fuck is it called vanilla someone tell me.
God, are you this useless?
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=define: vanilla&btnG=Google Search&meta=
Mod or modification is a term generally applied to computer games, especially first-person shooters and real-time strategy games. Mods are made by the general public, and can be entirely new games upon themselves. They can include new items, weapons, characters, enemies, models, modes, textures, levels, and story lines. They also usually take place in unique locations. They can be single-player or multiplayer.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanilla_(computer_game)
Any unpatched software is called "vanilla". Technically SC 1.00 would be Vanilla SC, but because people use "SC" to mean both StarCraft and Brood War, vanilla began being used to describe regular Starcraft.
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Vatican City State1176 Posts
On June 22 2006 09:20 InToTheWannaB wrote:
TvZ not that bad on reg SC. You can make just racks and pump marines with a few bats mixed in. ZvP I think is harder then TvZ anyway on Vanilla.
i still think that muta/lings will own marine bat hardcore
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muta ling doesnt pwn you so bad. but when zergs get to hive tech , you should start worrying.
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On June 22 2006 11:33 k3fka wrote:
muta ling doesnt pwn you so bad. but when zergs get to hive tech , you should start worrying.
Marines without stim get slaughtered by muta.
Mutas keep harassing until they stim, and retreat.
gg terran.
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since there are no lurkers ppl in vanilal go 9 rax double upgrade marines , doesnt matter if they stim them or no , they just dont have to micro , so they just attack move.
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Wasn't this topic disscused along time ago? I think the over all point of view is Zerg > Protoss> Terran. Basicly the game is not balanced.
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hehe they are saying exactly the contrary about Z and P.
I dunno, never played it but it seems that mutaling is hell strong against anything in vanilla
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I didnt know there were still peeps playing vanilla.
Its interesting to see differences in matchups.
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Mutaling is ridiculous in all matchups in vanilla.
Open with mutaling in every game, and you should be able to make minor adaptions and still be able to win every game. Mutaclump micro is already picking off marines out of mm clusters in BW muta harass, i'd hate to see what Ter did about early muta harass (before vessel) in vanilla, or what toss would do about islands/guards pvz. The only way to stop drops would be to see them coming and just wait for them with units. No intercepting with sairs.
<333333 bw
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Norway10161 Posts
Yea agree with above poster. While muta is less of a problem for toss the lack of sairs makes islands near-impossible to kill, and guard are pretty much unstoppable. When I played some vanilla back in 1.08 beta times I could do whatever I wanted. Funny thing was people had not figured out the power of well-microed lings and mutas then. I mean, just going tripple expand right away with a mass of speedlings will still keep a one base terran player occupied untill you can get something else.
Vanilla is horribly imbalanced.
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Wow this makes "vanilla" (whatever the hell that means) look so incredibly gay. Why would ANYONE still play original sc.
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Because it's fun, it's not that imbalanced as people say, it's quite an interesting game to play because it's completely dfferent to Brood War.
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Well about pvz, I think you have to go scouts for vs guardians, with storm support.. I mean sure hey suck in bw due to hydra/sair/valk but here they are quite good for countering air. (Though really expensive the only way to kill cliff guardians.:/
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You cant afford to go scouts with only 1 expo.....
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scouts are just to expensive, zerg can easily add some scourges/mutas if you go scouts, or just switch masshydras whatever, scouts are really to expensive vs anything, expect carrier.
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Why was this topic brought up on a brood war community site? sc just simply doesnt have enough support to ever be good ... it splayed by people who bought the game and forgot to by the expansion then they either stop or buy the expansion... yes sc is diffrent but bw is clearly better.
I really cant imagine a game on LT where P>Z must feel so wierd :/ as a toss player i cringe when i see an ultra... they should take away speed upgrade :D.
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mythical , i got bw and i played it way for years. i still play it but i also enjoy playing the non expansion for fun (and get a boost in my macro sometimes since its good for training ur macro).
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I have searched everywhere on the web for this, so I am coming here and bumping this thread to further this discussion.
Which patch do you people think is the most balanced for vanilla? The latest one (1.16.1) is generally considered the most-balanced for Brood War, but are not some of the adjustments made after expansion release causing imbalances to vanilla? Should one therefore stick to pre-expansion-era patches?
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On September 14 2014 03:42 twipley wrote:
I have searched everywhere on the web for this, so I am coming here and bumping this thread to further this discussion.
Which patch do you people think is the most balanced for vanilla? The latest one (1.16.1) is generally considered the most-balanced for Brood War, but are not some of the adjustments made after expansion release causing imbalances to vanilla? Should one therefore stick to pre-expansion-era patches?
i think they quit doing balance patches in like 1.07 and the others are just bug fixes and shit like that
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I just searched (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_version_history) and 1.08 was where they quit balancing the game. That patch was released about 30 months after expansion release.
One can follow the link to see the list of changes it brought up. It balanced Brood War, but there seems to be no discussion at all on the web on the subject of its implications to vanilla balance.
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On September 14 2014 08:49 twipley wrote:
I just searched (http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/StarCraft_version_history) and 1.08 was where they quit balancing the game. That patch was released about 30 months after expansion release.
One can follow the link to see the list of changes it brought up. It balanced Brood War, but there seems to be no discussion at all on the web on the subject of its implications to vanilla balance.
Broodwar itself was a balance patch to Vanilla you cant forget that.
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You're right.
But personally (and I'm sure there are others like me), I've always been attracted to vanilla more than to BW. It would be interesting to hear people with experience playing 1.02 (the last balance patch before BW), for example, compare that vs 1.08/1.16 vanilla. Does the BW-intended patches, when applied to vanilla, bring some obvious imbalances?
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There isn't really anything to base an answer on so it would be massive speculation from everyone.
Zerg would probably be even more broken than it is considered to be in vanilla now for these reasons:
Terran in 1.08:
More expensive turrets
No goliath range
Science facility takes more time to build
Goliaths do less damage
Medics don't exist either since it is vanilla
--> Zerg will just collect free wins with 2-hatch muta
Protoss in 1.08:
Zealots are weaker (more shields less health)
Storm does more damage
Dragoon builds faster
-> Protoss mid-late game might be stronger with bigger dragoon armies and stronger storms
--> Zerg has much stronger all-ins with hydralisk speed being cheaper and spawning pools costing 150 (could you just 5pool every game with weaker zealots?)
1.08 vanilla is definitely worse IMO
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Oh, so then Zerg still has the great lane?
I've just found out this thread -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/195342-iccup-event-sc-vanilla-tournament?view=all -- the last post there may well be worth a quote:
On February 24 2011 01:55 blue001 wrote:
TvZ might not be imba. Think about it young fellows. Mutalisks will be strong but since there are no medics they have to spend all that gas somewhere. WHERE will it go? VESSELS~! or cloaked wraiths. Making mutalisks ineffective. ALSO u can bunker mineral lines if hes going all in mutalisks and wait for vessel. Obviously you're not going to push out against fast mutalisks. But when you have vessel and a huge huge marine ball what are they going to do now that there's no lurkers and ultralisks are very weak? While you have tankss marines vessels and possibly mines. I think it'll be fun to watch for sure.
TvP not too much change, infact you guys say goliath range will hurt T. This is true. BUT no DTS which means you can spend all your scans to know exactly what hes doing without worrying about needing it to scan for dt. So you know when he's going to go carriers. Also you won't need turrets at all, to protect against DT rush, meaning you can go for a much later ebay when u do a timing push or something.
PvZ a lot of change. Corsair DTs are really good at harassing the zerg. Without them I don't know. HOWEVER no lurkers you dont have to get observers, AND zealots will be far more effective, which will probably mean toss players will skip the stargates since theres no useful units to build out of there, but that means faster zealot and +1 which will do really well since no lurkers, zealots are gonna be really strong. I predict mass gateway army of zealot templars since no lurker, possibly reavers. The problem is mutalisk... but no matter you can morph those templars into archons =]
ZvZ and TvT no change at all
PvP removes DT opening which means it changes the early game!
Plus, I'd guess firebats could be used as a viable means to protect from zergling attacks. I haven't played the game since 1999 or so though, therefore it is more in "mind" than anything else!
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You're highly unlikely to get a vessel out because you would have to make like 5 turrets and science facility takes longer to build.
Going two port Wraiths sound nice but then you realize they basically always follow it up with a marine+medic timing and you wouldn't have medics.
It's a timing thing that makes it extremely hard for Terran to defend.
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On September 15 2014 06:07 SnowFantasy wrote:
You're highly unlikely to get a vessel out because you would have to make like 5 turrets and science facility takes longer to build.
Going two port Wraiths sound nice but then you realize they basically always follow it up with a marine+medic timing and you wouldn't have medics.
It's a timing thing that makes it extremely hard for Terran to defend.
You could do the 1 - 1 - 1. The build that Light did a lot. You'll have cloaked wraiths in time for the mutas, then turrets, marines, and wraiths, and very fast vessels.
This is a build in Brood War that doesn't rely very much on medics or valkyries to stop mutalisks, and if successful, it leaves you in a good position with two bases, and tanks and vessels available. From there, you can go marine tank vessel. Once you get enough tanks, you can dominate until Zerg gets not only dark swarm, but also ultralisks.
I used to assume that the original StarCraft would just be unplayably imbalanced. Mutalisks would just dominate without corsairs or medics. But the more I thought about it, the more playable it seemed. I don't play Protoss any longer, so I can't think of any good Protoss solutions to mutalisks. But I do know that since you won't need to spend any gas on robotics due to one single lurker (or simply the threat of lurkers) you can focus entirely on defending against mutalisks. Maybe a forge FE in to 7 gate dragoon with cannons like missile turrets?
One could argue that without the corsair, you can't scout to know that the mutalisks are even coming. But Zerg almost has to go mutalisks. Mutas to snipe templars with mass hydralisks for everything else, and mass muta ling with sunkens at all expos, are the only ways to deal with high templars, since you can't fight the Protoss army straight up with lurker hydra ling. If he just goes mass hydralisks, all you have to do is survive, get a good deathball going, and then dominate the rest of the game.
If you survive, you're a lot stronger than in Brood War. Without lurkers, the only way that Zerg can fight a high economy Protoss is mass hydralisks, with mutalisks to snipe templars. This doesn't work forever. It gets worse the larger your army gets, so you could just turtle and play like you're Terran against Protoss.
If it goes to late game, Zerg seems disadvantaged. There are no lurkers, so getting there from the midgame is harder, and ultralisks are weaker because of the lack of the +2 armour upgrade. On the other hand, Zerg could go mass muta with mass sunkens on all of the expansions and just counter attack you every time you move out. You would need to leave like 2 archons and a templar at every base, with lots of cannons everywhere, and this could make up for the lack of lurkers, letting him stick with hydra muta or ling muta for a longer time than would be possible in BW.
I don't think Zerg is as broken in vanilla as people generally assume.
Honestly, I feel like playing some vanilla. It would be an interesting experience.
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EPT
