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1st of all Vanilla=starcraft without the xpansion broodwar
well i was arguing the other day with a couple of guys in op ugtour (europe server , vanilla ladder)about the balance issues.
Most of the vanilla games (99%) are played in lost temple so my arguments will suppose the game is in lost temple.
i personally consider the following in vanilla:
Z vs T is imbalanced in zergs favour: Mutas are damn versatile in vanilla considering terran doesnt have unlimited stim , there for , the harrass part is better.
Guardians rape marines so easily (even more with the cliffs and the centre temple) and hydras do a good work vs marines. Not even mentioning the use of defilers with swarm and plague. Not much to argue here.
P vs t in my opinion is balanced. The only difference is protoss having less resources to cheese (hence DTs). However , we got another significant change here that is carriers. At 1st sight people will tend to say protoss rapes terran in vanilla since goliaths dont have long ranged missiles. However this isnt entirely true. Protoss doesnt have corsairs in vanilla also , so wraiths can counter carriers pretty effectively. However , in my opinion its a bit harder since a mixture of goon templar zea carrier would be rather hard to stop.
and finally P vs Z , the most polemic matchup: Many say its zerg favoured , many say its balanced , many say its protoss favoured. So imma list the arguments of all parts:
The ones that claim its favoured for zerg usually say that the use of guardians in vanilla , without having corsairs , makes the matchup rather easy in LT. Plus you can take the islands pretty easy and defend them even easier. (my personal opinion is that guardians are hard to stop but...)
In the group of the protoss rapes zerg , myself included , ppl tend say its a pain in the ass to beat a protoss in vanilla for the following reasons:
1st- No lurkers: zealots obliterate everything. You cant contain nor drop the cliffs effectively. A good army of archon zea temp will rape you easy. So the solution ppl use is going mass hydras but: Hydras need a lot of micro to be effective against protoss. You need to dodge the storms , get the zealots away from the goons , etc. Lt isnt a map where the micro is particulary easy (like luna or the very open maps). You have that sucky temple in the middle which make things easier for the P. And the last but not least is ultras dont have speed nor armor upgrade This makes ultras uber slow to counter attacks (meaning if the p attacks one of ur exp , by the time you counter one of his , he might already be getting there). plus fighting a 200/200 protoss is almost impossible without using hordes of hydra ling + defilers(even using this its hard).
So i want opinions and plz dont flame me for this thread , i know there have been like infinite threads of balance issues , but i havent seen none recently 1 bout vanilla).
and i would also like to see a good protoss face a good zerg in vanilla (midian vs testie , or twisted vs strafe or whatever) to see how it turns out.
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I remember when i used to play vanilla my strat for Z was De up with sunkens (about 5-7) then tech broodlings while harrassing with first 6 mutas, Tech Hive and Great Spire. Then finaly morph gaurds and brood any templars that opposed me. If they made scouts (lol) i made scourges, simple. It worked about 90% of the time i think.
Edit - I think i used the same basic strat vs T as well but got brood faster for tanks and mutas slower because terran usually has good AA automatically. I usualy started with some kind of 7 pool 6 ling offensive then De'ed up with sunks.
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What about the islands? WIth its plentiful resources and location, they can add quite an intreresting twist into the game.
Especially the balance issue.
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On June 21 2006 19:58 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I remember when i used to play vanilla my strat for Z was De up with sunkens (about 5-7) then tech broodlings while harrassing with first 6 mutas, Tech Hive and Great Spire. Then finaly morph gaurds and brood any templars that opposed me. If they made scouts (lol) i made scourges, simple. It worked about 90% of the time i think.
Edit - I think i used the same basic strat vs T as well but got brood faster for tanks and mutas slower because terran usually has good AA automatically. I usualy started with some kind of 7 pool 6 ling offensive then De'ed up with sunks.
fuck yo couch darkness.
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Heh i never played original, never even knew about this game until broodwar came out and my friend showed it to me.
But more to the topic, yea ima have to agree on everything u just wrote, i think the game was rigged for protoss and zerg until medics came into the game.
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mutaling is ridiculous in zvt vanilla
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On June 21 2006 21:31 Th_Terran wrote:
Heh i never played original, never even knew about this game until broodwar came out and my friend showed it to me.
But more to the topic, yea ima have to agree on everything u just wrote, i think the game was rigged for protoss and zerg until medics came into the game.
Dude, come on... its vanilla. Haha.
A friend of mine online says he thought brood war ruined the point of starcraft.
He said, nah, I don't need to heal the guys anyways, I never do. They give protoss a cheap fast weak unit(corsair) which ruins the whole point of protoss. And then they give zerg an expensive strong unit. (lurker or devourer)
Anyways I gave some sort of answer, meh doesnt matter much, but I havent played vanilla in forever.
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vanilla is good and only good for fmp, thats it. The end.
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i also believe P >>>>> Z on vanilla, hardcore. You would have to fucking turtle up not to die to zeal/archon/templar army, meaning no map control, so all you have is the muta harrass/drops. 4-5 cannons with templars will stop cold any muta harrassment. You make guards, ok, but by that time, protoss has probably outexpanded you since he has map control. GGNORE
ZvT, yes its ridiculously imba in favor of zerg. Mutaling is just way to strong.
PvT, i think its just about the same...
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Hmm. All i know for sure about sc original is that pvt on moneymaps is much more imbalanced then in broodwar. Thats so funny, this 10 barack marine death stim terras.
About lowmaps. I am pretty sure that z>>>>>t. Muta Ling is just deadly against this helpless medic and goliah range less terras.
Pvt is quite ok, carrier rock without goliat range, which overcompensates dts a little bit in my eyes, so a really sligh p advantage.
But i am afraid, i am not sure about pvz. For me personally, it can get pretty ugly in sc, because my pvz heavily depends on corsair, i am just so used to them. But my guess is that the thread creater is right, no lurker should overcompensate corsair/darktempler, and make a standard protoss player with good technical skill win vs zerg on the same skill level. But wait, lets remember that zvp on lt in broodwar favours zerg.
A major problem in judging sc balance is that sc mainly consist of moneymap players and rather inactive nostalgics that didnt hear anything about the last 5 years of gameplay development. So you basically know for sure, what style to expect. Masszealots Goons only in a pvp, masshydra or some 1 base shit in a pvz and some stupid atemps to kill your carrier with masswraits.
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Vatican City State1176 Posts
why is Starcraft Original called Vanilla??
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I totally agree with your analyse, Z>T easy, P=T but i think P>zerg quite easy since z is very predictible (hyd or muts).
How is your sc ladder working? is it with antihack?
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On June 22 2006 00:55 Sadir wrote:
why is Starcraft Original called Vanilla??
cuz vanilla is the standard flavor of all icecreams? O_O
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mass hydra / ling with 3 evo's was pretty much absolutely necessary in ZvP. Late game, it was Guardian + Hydra + crackling sometimes deflier to plague the army. Guardians were actually alot stronger in vanilla, due to a lack of corsair by protoss. Ultras were not that bad, but they were not massed, but rather mixed in with with hydra/ling etc, sorta like a shield to absorb the dmg. Think I remember in vanilla, storm was pretty damn strong, practically killed any unit with one hit.(THink even lurkers at some point :o)
think going goliath was common in tvz, and tvz was a combo of tank/vulture/marine/goliath/vessel. STim would only be used once and only in difficult situations. Wraith wouldn't be that bad, but it would slow down the rest of the tech. >< Mass Hydra/ling probably was a great build, maybe even mutas.
TvP the only issue is probably countering carriers TvP. Mass Carriers + obs was probably very difficult to stop. I bet people even went BCs in TvP to fight carriers, and macro/micro was not as established back then.
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Hm, i think the first guy, meant original sc nowadays, with nowadays unit costs and damage points and not the 150 Mineral Pool and 1 Psi Lurkder dead days. To bad i could never make use of the 150 pool. I think was already playing then, it just didnt make any difference for me on moneymaps against tosses^^
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storm still counters guardian too well for them to be gamebreaking imo
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metal still works nicely in TvP vanilla
only disadvantage is if toss gets to carriers (no gollie range), but that's fairly rare overall
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UGTour is an ideal place for vanilla players, for more information have a look on http://ugt.servegame.com/UGTOUR.html
It’s a ladder type tournament which the players must play on Penguin Plug.
Op UGTour on Europe. You must ask one of the admins to sign you up, if you want further information just send me a PM on teamliquid.net
Back on topic, I agree with k3fka, PvT is balanced and PvZ on Lost Temple is VERY difficult, I'm a regular player on this ladder and 60% of my losses are due to ZvP on Temple, it's extremely difficult to win if the zerg gamer plays it properly, I've used various strategies, but I still lose, generally a zerg gamer will play like this on LT.
- 3 hatch into mutas
- Two evo champers upgrading lings
- Upgrading drop availability
- Takes both islands
- Harassing the protoss and gradually teaching to hive
- Hive is completed, crack is researched
- Islands protected with sunks and nydus canal
- Mutas morphed into guards
- Attacks your natural with 8-9 guards
- Nexus dies, you counter his natural expansion
- Attacking his natural which is protected by 8 sunks and 2-2 crack lings
- Your army dies, guards attack the main base followed by streams of lings.
- GAME OVER
Majority of the TOP zerg gamers on Vanilla play like this, it’s extremely difficult to beat, other than that I find vanilla fun to play as I’m a natural Brood War player.
Also from what I’ve seen, StarCraft player’s style of play is a lot different compared to a Brood War player.
In my opinion I find TvZ quite entertaining on Vanilla and fairly balanced, but if played correctly it can be a nightmare, majority of vanilla players don’t play this matchup in the right way.
It should be played like this, 3 hatch into muta, followed by mass hydras with defiler and queen support, it’s unbeatable.
K3fka, are you v.S)WizaRdOfOz on UGT?
Great topic btw.!
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Elsi, you do realize that he consider Z as a little to strong in ZvP?
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i played vanilla after BW came out, i have to admit (yes, i feel ashamed) that i didn't like BW when it came out. The new units had too much impact on the game, changed everything around, but what's more important: they introduced about 10 new flavours of cheese. DT rush and Lurk rush being the most annoying, as well as mmf rushes new being much more effective vs early zerg.
So i played vanilla for about 1.5 years before there were no ppl at all still playing it and i switched over. I still HATE losing to DT rush tho, still don't prepare for it way too often.
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EPT
