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On May 01 2006 07:53 TserHossHiBreed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2006 02:36 Patriot.dlk wrote:
If it's so bad, then why does the very best of the best protosses in the world use it? talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents.
The build isn't a joke at all. The best Protoss players in the world are using it in their most important matches. Like most non-conservative builds, the decision to use it just comes down to percentages. If the player feels he has 60% chance of winning with it, it doesn't matter how decisive the losses are in the other 40%. If it doesn't seem like there's any other shot to get a >60% chance for winning, then it makes sense to go for it.
If people want to use a ladder like PGTour as competition, then a build like that is bad. If you want to use it as a place to practice, then do the build over and over so you can work your success rate up.
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So how the hell are terrans spose to beat this, if we arn't progamar?
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the build is annoying and i get angry when protosses do it vs me ;p especially when i scout them last.
You can get a few zeals w/goon and defend pretty much any rush if you use probes aswell. It depends on the map though. Sometimes a terran can just mine then set up a push outside and if you dont get a shuttle you wo nt beat it ;p
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I personally haven't managed to pull off this build, but who knows maybe I'll try out the suggested BOs.
Anyways, anytime I've FE, Terran has had sucess with vulture micro or hard push. As Terran if you see FE, you know they dont have obs, and obs is the only think that keeps terran from using crazy vultures. They are cheap as hell with a huge punch if youre getting the mine damage in. It's going to be rough to stave off that as toss. Even with goons, range is still slow to research.
And winning after keeping off their first hard attack... thats a given. Anyone have any advice on Terran FE in response? Seems like that would be the safe thing to do if you scout on time.
Better on maps where scouting takes longer and bases are further apart. I still think that you need to be quite skilled to pull this off vs. someone of equal or higher skill level than you. If it's vs someone weaker, do whatever you want. Probe the fucker to death.
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on 815 u can get away with it
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ive also been able to counter this with a fac-starport build by doing harass with 2 tanks then sending another dropship with vultures (on rush hour), toss cant stop it easily without goon range and obs
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why dont you bunker rush it?
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Bunker rush doesn't work.
It's a good build.
I'm rather surprised pro tosses are doing it on Rush Hour though. Seeing as how it has a higher probability of being scouted fast. An extremely good terran such as boxer upon seeing the build would just lay an unfinished supply depot down at your expansion. It wouldn't make you lose the game, but it'd be a set back to have 300 minerals or so and only a pylon.
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It's a very risky build.
I'd put it between "normal build" and "win-or-lose". This build goes on the edge. If perfectly executed, it gives you a big advantage - but if you make one mistake, you won't have the opportunity to correct it.
I think this build is best left to P players who don't see themselves eg. losing a goon early on mines vs vultures. If you can micro goons vs vultures perfectly (without range!), not get all your peons killed off or him getting into your main, it's a good build. But there are IMO too many ifs.
Push won't beat it. Slow push with expo will be just that - too slow. Fast push is susceptible to the fact that once the expo is online, the protoss will be able to overpower the terran if he doesn't lose troops. If he does - well, back to point one.
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i have used this build with success at forte and i can share a few reps if your interested.
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It's quite a powerful build. The terran will need very good micro to win with vultures early on, and a rush without vultures shouldn't be difficult to stop with goons+probes. However, you are easily screwed against any fast barracks build(the game will look like a 3 minute boxer vs yellow tvz).
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On May 01 2006 15:23 sataNik[pG] wrote:
i have used this build with success at forte and i can share a few reps if your interested.
yes please do 
and what would be amazing is a complete pgt reppack :D
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On May 01 2006 16:03 Samejima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2006 15:23 sataNik[pG] wrote:
i have used this build with success at forte and i can share a few reps if your interested.
yes please do and what would be amazing is a complete pgt reppack :D
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haha i could make a rep pack with 2000+ intersting reps but i wont cuz i beleive that by mass watching reps someone inevitably limits his originality and i dont want to do that to you guys.
i am nostalgic of the era before 2001 (1.07). everything then was so interesting because there was so much open ground for innovation.. now there are way too many players who play the same way , freaky....
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Well i used to make this build 1 year ago and when i saw that vod where nal_ra raped nada it helped me to make a best build : i realized how it can be powerful.It s no more risky than a zerg expanding 12 but probes are stronger than drones. What i changed is that i use double gas to drop 4 dt :very surprising for the t who will not expect it after a fast expand .
My build ( this strats works on macro/non cliff maps : eq : luna, r point , rush hour..)
Perfect split , probes to 12 : send 13th to gather at the expand : make nexus and take it back to main , re gather to expand and make a pilon , again back to main then make 2 gates and gather again and make aforge and scout : train 2 zealots make 1 turet (choose the best angle to protect all your expand and your choke from vultures) , then gaz core (and still always mass probes) second gas.
Then depends of your feelings : if u feel terran decided to "hard push' you u will need more turets and build them like a zerg would do vs terran mm tank push ( as far as you can to deley him) during this time u will have build adun-robo then archives and i ensureu enough money to build 4 gates and a shutle and maybe an obs :train 4 dt and then many situation :
Terran suceed to destroy your expand BUT u have mass probes and dt so :1) u drop dt in his main ( fast push = low defences in main) and u block your choke with dt till u have enough units to expand again.2) you stil can save your expo : in most of games iplayed terran did not expect dt drops so if u can get an obs u will be able to drop dt on tank and mines.
If terran decided fast expand when he saw u did and it was to late to attck (late scout ) then it becomes easy.
Terran scouts you fast and want to rush bunk : no more difficult than a zerg vs a terran .
Yeah i heard some o f you saying it can be easyly raped : i know but i ensure you my win rate was >50 %. Its a "fun" strat : don t do it if u aim to reach high ranks or in a tourney. Needs no preasure and it s very fun to play this.
The worst cases is vs gays terrans : early push rins tanks and turets abuse . I'm sure its agood strat i could beat ig mireille on luna whereas i'm really mid player and not p user; I'm sure hasu protoss can be very powerful with this.
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And i would say : your nexus costs you 300 because u won t need a second pilon : if your timing is perfect the expands finshes at 18/18. What's 300 ? 2 goons and 1 probes? 1 goon and 1 pilon forgot ?: even gosu protoss can waste 300 in early gamewithout affecting the game.
And to conclude i saw fisheye doing this kind of build vs protoss on wcg (without turets , only 1 then 2 then 4 gates zealots): it s harder vs p so i definitely think it s good build.
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ok here u go: [url blocked]
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Maybe I'm ignorant, but I would think that nexus on 12 vs terran would be better assuming you're opening with a gate (as a forge would do little good) because your nexus could act as a second pylon. Nexus on 14 vs zerg seems alright though, but in pvz, you could actually use cannons, in pvt, you'd be getting units up asap to not die to joyo/bamboo/fake double, and I'd think that yur nexus as your second pylon would be pretty nice for this. I'm not a protoss player thought :D
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On May 01 2006 07:53 TserHossHiBreed wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2006 02:36 Patriot.dlk wrote:
If it's so bad, then why does the very best of the best protosses in the world use it? talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents.
Wait, so the one telling us that we're making irrelevant points is trying to tell us not to use the build because it's bad on Sattarchasm+?
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On May 01 2006 16:27 sataNik[pG] wrote:
haha i could make a rep pack with 2000+ intersting reps but i wont cuz i beleive that by mass watching reps someone inevitably limits his originality and i dont want to do that to you guys.
i am nostalgic of the era before 2001 (1.07). everything then was so interesting because there was so much open ground for innovation.. now there are way too many players who play the same way , freaky....
I know what u mean but I don't think anyone's originality would go down by watching your replays. You are one of the few I enjoy watching replays of (especially protoss) because you got your own style and i can learn new builds and tricks that I would not have think myself. As you said, most players play the same so it's not worth watching reps unless it's high caliber players.
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EPT
