EPTi know its a pretty risky build but i want to try this out
14 nexus build, PvT
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
i know its a pretty risky build but i want to try this out | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
there are many variations, the safest is: 13 nex 14 gate 15 gas, gate, core, zeal (meant to deal with rine/vult/scv rush). the most rewarding is: 14 nex 15 pylon gate 16 gas 17 gate 18 core with this build if u block the terran's first attempt, then u just overpower him. the key to surviving is halting probe production often to make army. | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
Now they both lost those games  but that's beside the point. The key is cutting probes once the expo nex finishes so that you can get the gas, core and 2 gates up super fast.You need to have a handful of units to deal with his push to your main. You can't let him mine up since you'll have no obs so you need those units out and ready to repel him as he advances. It's a great build and can be really strong even if the T pressures. You just need to play differently than what you're used to...and pray for far positions to make it easier on you. | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
I guess you can do it on maps where scouting would take longer so terran has less time to try to react. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9935 Posts
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
On May 01 2006 00:25 intrigue wrote: wow, a toss fe build becoming popular... i'm going to look for some vods or reps of this, sounds neat welcome to the era of macro =P | ||
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
On May 01 2006 00:11 skyglow1 wrote: If this build is pulled off perfectly, theres pretty much only a limited number of things that terran can do. For example I went joyo in this game once seeing as how the toss had started a very fast expo on rush hour. By the time I got there with 3 tanks, rines and scvs he had something like 5 goons and 2 more coming. I guess you can do it on maps where scouting would take longer so terran has less time to try to react. Joyo is too slow, just overrun him with nonstop vultures with mines, marines and 7-8 scvs, a tank isn't even necessary since he doesn't have range yet - this means marines are still effective vs dragoons, and once you get the bunker up at his expansion, there is little he can do. What I would suggest as a counter is pump many marines, one factory, and then a 2nd at 60% 1st factory, machine shop, then pump vultures + mines, send 6-7 scvs using mine command at his expo mins, when you reach him you should have 3 vultures marines and scvs, more than enough to overpower him. Then you can simply cut off reinforcements with mines on ramp. | ||
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exalted
United States3612 Posts
However, you can easily mix it up by going 2gate power dragoon - fast expo or DT. Plus the option to harass the T by cutting the 14-16th probes for a zeal...it's very effective. On a final note, I don't mean to completely belittle this build, becuase the maps weren't specified. On many larger maps, this build is perfectly viable and is definitely a good thing to throw in if you have to play a BO5 or something. However, again, I would not recommend on Luna or LT. | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
I mean, Rush Hour is not a very big map but it's suited for it aswell obviously | ||
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Sheriff
Belgium26 Posts
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
but recently Midas pissed on Stork with the NaDa build. I doubt many people could do it like Midas did... he had sick micro. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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TserHossHiBreed
Algeria87 Posts
On May 01 2006 02:36 Patriot.dlk wrote: If it's so bad, then why does the very best of the best protosses in the world use it? talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
On May 01 2006 07:53 TserHossHiBreed wrote: talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents. The build isn't a joke at all. The best Protoss players in the world are using it in their most important matches. Like most non-conservative builds, the decision to use it just comes down to percentages. If the player feels he has 60% chance of winning with it, it doesn't matter how decisive the losses are in the other 40%. If it doesn't seem like there's any other shot to get a >60% chance for winning, then it makes sense to go for it. If people want to use a ladder like PGTour as competition, then a build like that is bad. If you want to use it as a place to practice, then do the build over and over so you can work your success rate up. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
You can get a few zeals w/goon and defend pretty much any rush if you use probes aswell. It depends on the map though. Sometimes a terran can just mine then set up a push outside and if you dont get a shuttle you wo nt beat it ;p | ||
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GoaLD50
United States41 Posts
Anyways, anytime I've FE, Terran has had sucess with vulture micro or hard push. As Terran if you see FE, you know they dont have obs, and obs is the only think that keeps terran from using crazy vultures. They are cheap as hell with a huge punch if youre getting the mine damage in. It's going to be rough to stave off that as toss. Even with goons, range is still slow to research. And winning after keeping off their first hard attack... thats a given. Anyone have any advice on Terran FE in response? Seems like that would be the safe thing to do if you scout on time. Better on maps where scouting takes longer and bases are further apart. I still think that you need to be quite skilled to pull this off vs. someone of equal or higher skill level than you. If it's vs someone weaker, do whatever you want. Probe the fucker to death. | ||
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beavis.smurf
United States339 Posts
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LG)Sabbath
Argentina3024 Posts
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beavis.smurf
United States339 Posts
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Mr.Testie
973 Posts
It's a good build. I'm rather surprised pro tosses are doing it on Rush Hour though. Seeing as how it has a higher probability of being scouted fast. An extremely good terran such as boxer upon seeing the build would just lay an unfinished supply depot down at your expansion. It wouldn't make you lose the game, but it'd be a set back to have 300 minerals or so and only a pylon. | ||
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Ilintar
Poland794 Posts
I'd put it between "normal build" and "win-or-lose". This build goes on the edge. If perfectly executed, it gives you a big advantage - but if you make one mistake, you won't have the opportunity to correct it. I think this build is best left to P players who don't see themselves eg. losing a goon early on mines vs vultures. If you can micro goons vs vultures perfectly (without range!), not get all your peons killed off or him getting into your main, it's a good build. But there are IMO too many ifs. Push won't beat it. Slow push with expo will be just that - too slow. Fast push is susceptible to the fact that once the expo is online, the protoss will be able to overpower the terran if he doesn't lose troops. If he does - well, back to point one. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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Samejima
Canada534 Posts
On May 01 2006 15:23 sataNik[pG] wrote: i have used this build with success at forte and i can share a few reps if your interested. yes please do  and what would be amazing is a complete pgt reppack :D | ||
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kroko
Finland2136 Posts
On May 01 2006 16:03 Samejima wrote: yes please do and what would be amazing is a complete pgt reppack :D | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
i am nostalgic of the era before 2001 (1.07). everything then was so interesting because there was so much open ground for innovation.. now there are way too many players who play the same way , freaky.... | ||
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strik.fr
France212 Posts
My build ( this strats works on macro/non cliff maps : eq : luna, r point , rush hour..) Perfect split , probes to 12 : send 13th to gather at the expand : make nexus and take it back to main , re gather to expand and make a pilon , again back to main then make 2 gates and gather again and make aforge and scout : train 2 zealots make 1 turet (choose the best angle to protect all your expand and your choke from vultures) , then gaz core (and still always mass probes) second gas. Then depends of your feelings : if u feel terran decided to "hard push' you u will need more turets and build them like a zerg would do vs terran mm tank push ( as far as you can to deley him) during this time u will have build adun-robo then archives and i ensureu enough money to build 4 gates and a shutle and maybe an obs :train 4 dt and then many situation : Terran suceed to destroy your expand BUT u have mass probes and dt so :1) u drop dt in his main ( fast push = low defences in main) and u block your choke with dt till u have enough units to expand again.2) you stil can save your expo : in most of games iplayed terran did not expect dt drops so if u can get an obs u will be able to drop dt on tank and mines. If terran decided fast expand when he saw u did and it was to late to attck (late scout ) then it becomes easy. Terran scouts you fast and want to rush bunk : no more difficult than a zerg vs a terran . Yeah i heard some o f you saying it can be easyly raped : i know but i ensure you my win rate was >50 %. Its a "fun" strat : don t do it if u aim to reach high ranks or in a tourney. Needs no preasure and it s very fun to play this. The worst cases is vs gays terrans : early push rins tanks and turets abuse . I'm sure its agood strat i could beat ig mireille on luna whereas i'm really mid player and not p user; I'm sure hasu protoss can be very powerful with this. | ||
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strik.fr
France212 Posts
And to conclude i saw fisheye doing this kind of build vs protoss on wcg (without turets , only 1 then 2 then 4 gates zealots): it s harder vs p so i definitely think it s good build. | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On May 01 2006 07:53 TserHossHiBreed wrote: talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents. Wait, so the one telling us that we're making irrelevant points is trying to tell us not to use the build because it's bad on Sattarchasm+? | ||
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Samejima
Canada534 Posts
On May 01 2006 16:27 sataNik[pG] wrote: haha i could make a rep pack with 2000+ intersting reps but i wont cuz i beleive that by mass watching reps someone inevitably limits his originality and i dont want to do that to you guys. i am nostalgic of the era before 2001 (1.07). everything then was so interesting because there was so much open ground for innovation.. now there are way too many players who play the same way , freaky.... I know what u mean but I don't think anyone's originality would go down by watching your replays. You are one of the few I enjoy watching replays of (especially protoss) because you got your own style and i can learn new builds and tricks that I would not have think myself. As you said, most players play the same so it's not worth watching reps unless it's high caliber players. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On May 01 2006 16:27 sataNik[pG] wrote: haha i could make a rep pack with 2000+ intersting reps but i wont cuz i beleive that by mass watching reps someone inevitably limits his originality and i dont want to do that to you guys. i am nostalgic of the era before 2001 (1.07). everything then was so interesting because there was so much open ground for innovation.. now there are way too many players who play the same way , freaky.... Would u marry me? ~_~ I'll pay for the wedding! | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
er... maybe we need a laptop too >.< | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 01 2006 07:53 TserHossHiBreed wrote: talk about an irrelevant argument. This build is too risky, unless you can make it at least C with a decent winning score on PGT don't attempt it. I'm pretty sure it looses vs 2 fact and if you're doing it on LT/sattarchasm/etc. you're doing a big gamble because of 1 fact star. Even 1 factory could probably overun this with correct SCV micro. I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was. To those who say it's an awesome and viable build, everything is awesome and viable when you're playing bad opponents. You and exalted are both crazy for arguing against this build when stork, pusan and nal_ra ALL have used it within the past few months. It is a good build to do once in a while, of course you don't use it every single game but it's not a bad build.. On May 01 2006 12:20 Mr.Testie wrote: Bunker rush doesn't work. It's a good build. I'm rather surprised pro tosses are doing it on Rush Hour though. Seeing as how it has a higher probability of being scouted fast. An extremely good terran such as boxer upon seeing the build would just lay an unfinished supply depot down at your expansion. It wouldn't make you lose the game, but it'd be a set back to have 300 minerals or so and only a pylon. Testie, I'm surprised - don't you know that a lot of people scout VERY late or barely at all PvT on rush hour (both sides)? Urgh, all these threads are making me want to play BW, but I must resist until my hands feel better-- And I get a new desk. And a new chair. And should get my ass to a doctor too-.- | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
On May 01 2006 17:44 Samejima wrote: I know what u mean but I don't think anyone's originality would go down by watching your replays. You are one of the few I enjoy watching replays of (especially protoss) because you got your own style and i can learn new builds and tricks that I would not have think myself. As you said, most players play the same so it's not worth watching reps unless it's high caliber players. nah its just that some strats, once known and expected, arent as strong without the surprise element and as long as im playing competitively i'd better keep some secrecy. | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
the most interesting strat for T is probably the early scv/rine rush,like the one of the draw game.im not sure yet which side is favored, but probably the toss should just let go of the natural in sight of that many scvs | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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Catyoul
France2377 Posts
The reps were mad cool. I watched the [hyo] one first, after the dropship interception, I imagined Korean girls in the audience screaming :D I couldn't believe you would succeed in the forceful break of the wall either, I was surprised you didn't robo there. In the 3 reps, it seemed to me that the key point of the game is in the early attack/defense | ||
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rel
Guam3521 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece724 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
Seems like a decent strat on azalea, msg me on west (AiMonsterToss now, might be using powertoss though..) if anyone wants to test this strat with me a little bit.. im now interested =o | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17743 Posts
On May 01 2006 18:16 sataNik[pG] wrote: skip the churches and the marriages! lets go to tropical island, u me and the sun :D er... maybe we need a laptop too >.< haha | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
You non belivers should realize your knowledge is nada compared to nal_ra stork etc | ||
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
Midas scouted when the nexus was done - -; go www.teamliquid.net/tracker week 2.2 Midas vs stork | ||
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FroST(TE)
United States909 Posts
dirtiest fe build yet. | ||
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Elsi
United Kingdom8173 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On May 02 2006 01:50 FroST(TE) wrote: stay at one gate and tech dt simultaneously dirtiest fe build yet. Yes, bit it dies so damn hard to vultures | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
On May 02 2006 02:10 Elsi wrote: Where's the link for the replays? previous page | ||
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TserHossHiBreed
Algeria87 Posts
Wait, so the one telling us that we're making irrelevant points is trying to tell us not to use the build because it's bad on Sattarchasm+? tell me how you gonna fend off a 1 fact star. | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
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Raider
61 Posts
You put it best yourself, "I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was." You make a grand case. | ||
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CGMU
Peru48 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On May 02 2006 09:07 TserHossHiBreed wrote: tell me how you gonna fend off a 1 fact star. Tell me why I would ever be playing on Sattarchasm+. | ||
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TserHossHiBreed
Algeria87 Posts
I don't know about the topic maker's skill, but I'm assuming that 90% of the players who participated to this thread (and pretty much the same percentage applying to all the players around the world) aren't immortal SC players. So my answer to those players and to the topic maker is, I don't think it's a good idea for you to attempt it unless you can legitly reach a decent level in competitive gaming. Ladder rank only means so much, but you gotta at least have some sort of grasp of the game and a minimum of autonomy. I'll rephrase the part about the build being a joke, that was exagerated. I'll put it like this : Don't try it at home, it's a build that requires alot of skill and experience to be sucessfully pulled off. That's my opinion. *edit* Tell me why I would ever be playing on Sattarchasm+. Or LT. But as someone just pointed out, any player probably wouldn't gamble this on a map with a cliffed nat. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
nex on 14 pvz, get it strait nexing on 12 allows the nexus to act as 2nd pylon which is good if u don't need cannons early | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
On May 02 2006 12:20 Raider wrote: Breed, yes Satanik and Day are playing bad opponents, as are the Korean pros. Also, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you are thinking that any of the proponents of this build would recommend it on temple or any other map where there is a cliff over the natural. You put it best yourself, "I haven't got alot of experience regarding a PvT FE but I think this is a joke, like The Stove was." You make a grand case. do you think that people who plays in MSL, OSL, proleague ARE BAD OPPONENTS?? | ||
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FroZZoR
China925 Posts
On May 02 2006 20:20 MyLostTemple wrote: nex on 12 pvp pvt nex on 14 pvz, get it strait nexing on 12 allows the nexus to act as 2nd pylon which is good if u don't need cannons early yeah also u can get dragoons faster =] | ||
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