Been toying around with this strategy and it seems like it has some promise. Essentially if you suspect that he's going Lurker, you go Vult with speed + mines (mines first). Start laying mines defensively, and get an Ebay and get +1 weapons when you have the money. From here you have several options:
- Fast expand, switch to infantry - Switch to infantry off of one base - Switch to infantry drops - 2-port Wraith
What you can do from here on out is begin mine pushing and using good Vult micro to push him back to his sunken wall. Vult raids probably aren't going to do much since he'll be in such a defensive position, so I don't advise that. The mines will keep his Lurkers from moving out, and Vult micro will allow you to kill any lings that try to suicide against mines, or take potshots at Lurkers. The prediction is that he will start going Hydra to clear out the mines more easily. You can exploit this prediction by switching up to infantry with light Tank support early on, then easily push in.
Wraiths are a decent alternative for killing stray Overlords and forcing him to turtle. This will ensure that he switches to Hydra if he hasn't already done so. Basically this will have the same effect as a 2-port Wraith opening. Following up a 2-port Wraith harass with an infantry drop is devastating.
If you choose to fast expand, that should be safe too since you've got mines/vults to protect against Lurk/ling and probably a couple of Tanks guarding as well.
If he decides to switch up to Muta for a counter position, that shouldn't be a problem either since you've started your infantry production and +1 weapons much earlier than him, and you can always put Turrets up too.
That's about it. This seems like a safe early-game transitionary strat, but I've never seen anyone use it.
it is a nice effective strat, though it hurts if he goes muta, i usually follow up with an early as possible ebay if he does go muta and turr around a bit and from there get vessel and irridate if i see him continuing (most people do if they see you go 2fact vul, since they assume a follow up by gols or something, which i find useless against Z).
i like that strat, only risk is you have to keep up the tempo and macro. i tend to fail sometimes and the Z breaks out and overwhelms me. but thats just me being lazy --V
You'll have to elaborate more on this build - are you getting academy so you can make sure he's going lurker? If so, your vulture tech is really slow, vice versa you're taking a pretty big risk (unless he 1 bases, in which you have better options. If he goes 2 base lurker, don't even try this, he'll already be getting drop to protect his cliff, he'll run along the sides and drop 2 lurkers in your mineral line, you can't attack his 3 sunks with the vultures or run by them, meanwhile he'll be getting speed on his overlord + hydralisks, giving him insane mobility.
How do you push lurkerling back anyway? He'll just sacrifice a zergling to get rid of some mines if they're clumped too much, and if he's got his lurkers burrowed in your choke, how do you "push them back?"
The point of going MM vs 1 base (especially dropship) is to give him a hassle taking his expand as well as be able to counterattack if he tries to contain you. This build allows him to take an easy expand, and although he can't be particularly aggressive, neither can you. I love vultures and I think they're the best unit in the game, but doesn't seem appropriate for this.
It can work nice on for example Nostalgia, like we have seen in some pro games. But on a map like LT where zerg gets two fast gas it will be harder. Problem is zerg adapt his tech after terran if he scouts fast gas, not other way around. So most zergs wouldn't go lurker vs this build since muta usually works better vs fast tech.
On April 09 2005 22:17 exalted wrote: You'll have to elaborate more on this build - are you getting academy so you can make sure he's going lurker? If so, your vulture tech is really slow, vice versa you're taking a pretty big risk (unless he 1 bases, in which you have better options. If he goes 2 base lurker, don't even try this, he'll already be getting drop to protect his cliff, he'll run along the sides and drop 2 lurkers in your mineral line, you can't attack his 3 sunks with the vultures or run by them, meanwhile he'll be getting speed on his overlord + hydralisks, giving him insane mobility.
How do you push lurkerling back anyway? He'll just sacrifice a zergling to get rid of some mines if they're clumped too much, and if he's got his lurkers burrowed in your choke, how do you "push them back?"
The point of going MM vs 1 base (especially dropship) is to give him a hassle taking his expand as well as be able to counterattack if he tries to contain you. This build allows him to take an easy expand, and although he can't be particularly aggressive, neither can you. I love vultures and I think they're the best unit in the game, but doesn't seem appropriate for this.
Academy goes up after the Factory. This is essentially a straight rush to vults. As for pushing back Lurk/ling, your Vults will be out before his Lurkers so you have initial field reign. Even if he tries suiciding lings against your mines, you can kill those before they arrive with your Vults (I covered this in the first post). If the Lurkers are already burrowed, and I have no idea why they would be at your choke at this point in the game, you can still surround them with mines the same way you'd surround them with infantry. Anyway, as I said there are many different possible branches from this build, including a fast expand if you are worried about his income advantage. It's also possible to control his expansion attempts by mining resource node areas.
good strat but if he switches to hyds and u switch du mm he will have lurkers already upgraded anyway and u can expect at least a little bit of scouting btw im going 90%muta which will own your build especially if i stay massmuta your mm count is so low. but good on maps like nostalgia where u cant really afford ovi speed and all the hyd ups and with vults u can prevent getting more gas
dont make vults early game make it like middle or late against dark swarm... just put mines on certain locations you think Z attacks its very effective on defending expansions...
I used to play vultures vs z in vanilla around the 1.08 beta time - was very entertaining since terran is buttfucked in vanilla anyway. But then more for drone kills early and tech switch fast with expand and 5-6 fac gol.
well... i think this strat was used by Nada some time ago... but is there anyway of knowing if he's getting muta besides SCAN? maybe... u just need some luck
I think the problem is that most zergs go muta when they see that the terran takes gas (especially on LT, where they usually manage to scout). There was this [elo]stefan13 guy who used to own people using vulture-wraith strats, mines seem to be devastating vs lurker ling if terran microes the vultures to take out single lings sent to destroy minefields
On April 10 2005 10:41 8882 wrote: I think the problem is that most zergs go muta when they see that the terran takes gas (especially on LT, where they usually manage to scout). There was this [elo]stefan13 guy who used to own people using vulture-wraith strats, mines seem to be devastating vs lurker ling if terran microes the vultures to take out single lings sent to destroy minefields
as posted before, its hard to pull off, and very cheesy on maps with gas at nat exps.
Maps where it MIGHT be viable is nostalgia, intothedarkness,mercury and such.
On April 10 2005 11:51 tensionwave wrote: cant u just buy some time with turrets and then go goliaths if he goes muta?
Yes but you will be at too great of a defensive disadvantage, you won't have enough gas to get vessel for irradiate vs the mutalisks, a MM switch would just delay your expand and take extra time (inefficient), and you won't be able to move out until you have a good number of goliaths, meaning he has free reign over the map and will be able to get a 3rd base (drone up) easily.
cant u just do floating fact and try to kill his expo with 2 tanks on klif? it is very davastating for zerg... same time do 3 valks on main... and add m&m... make an exp... and kill em....
On April 10 2005 14:58 tX.Ghanima wrote: cant u just do floating fact and try to kill his expo with 2 tanks on klif? it is very davastating for zerg... same time do 3 valks on main... and add m&m... make an exp... and kill em....
By the way, vulture would be especially effective on maps like nostalgia that has no gas natural. Most of the games, Z goes lurkling on that map. Due to lack of gas, Z can't usually afford to researh drop/overlord speed/hydra upgrades. damn vultures are the shit
I'd love to see some reps. Like how many vulture you make and when to switch to infantry.
I think hydralurker will be a counter to this. IMO it works mostly because of the suprise factor. Once this strat is more common, the counter to this won't be hard. Don't underestimate the zerg's tech-switching ability, especially u didn't pressure the zerg's expo much if u tech to fac.
On March 14 2006 17:33 Hypnotize wrote: how do you beat a terran who goes metal if your initial attack gets raped?
ihe went vults and i was like "wtf" cuz i had ovie speed somehow and hydras, then he went tank/gol. how do you beat metal once t gets tech?
Seeing as this is your 4th post, you probably will want to read the forum rules. Please DONT bump year old threads, make a new one so your question will be answered.
Btw, there are like two or three threads on how to beat terran metal with zerg that are currently bouncing around in the strategy forum. Use the search function or scroll through topic titles.
To answer your question, go mass muta + lings to beat metal.
Its not that great when the zerg 3 hatches, and even less when he goes muta, but when he is going 2 hatchery --which will indicate most of the time lurkerling, and not the same economy as 3 hatch that allows the zerg to switch between speedlings, hydras and lair tech fairly easily,-- or when the map has a mineral only natural, its a pain in the ass to play against.
Good use of Vultures at start, ended up with a powerful use of goliaths. Made possible with the large gap between the player's starting positions and convenient unit placments.
Edit: oH SHIT WTF thread so old, wasted my time on searching for this..fuck.
Actually I think 3cm drop is the answer vs this thingie... When you get lurkers burrowed, it really is impossible for vultures to kill them, cuz one hit kills all the mines T_T
Maybe 2 fact vult --> Mass Valkarie if he goes mutalisks? ^^ Valks r sexy Then take islands -> Mass BC w00t
On March 14 2006 17:33 Hypnotize wrote: how do you beat a terran who goes metal if your initial attack gets raped?
ihe went vults and i was like "wtf" cuz i had ovie speed somehow and hydras, then he went tank/gol. how do you beat metal once t gets tech?
Seeing as this is your 4th post, you probably will want to read the forum rules. Please DONT bump year old threads, make a new one so your question will be answered.
Btw, there are like two or three threads on how to beat terran metal with zerg that are currently bouncing around in the strategy forum. Use the search function or scroll through topic titles.
To answer your question, go mass muta + lings to beat metal.
On April 10 2005 14:58 tX.Ghanima wrote: cant u just do floating fact and try to kill his expo with 2 tanks on klif? it is very davastating for zerg... same time do 3 valks on main... and add m&m... make an exp... and kill em....
Dude are u serious???? this would work on d- pgt users, maybe maybe. First read the post pefore u replay somethin so stupid
On April 10 2005 14:58 tX.Ghanima wrote: cant u just do floating fact and try to kill his expo with 2 tanks on klif? it is very davastating for zerg... same time do 3 valks on main... and add m&m... make an exp... and kill em....
Dude are u serious???? this would work on d- pgt users, maybe maybe. First read the post pefore u replay somethin so stupid
This guy kickdog does this kind of things, and he beats decent players, its so frigging annoying if you are expecting to play an straight player :D.
On March 14 2006 17:33 Hypnotize wrote: how do you beat a terran who goes metal if your initial attack gets raped?
ihe went vults and i was like "wtf" cuz i had ovie speed somehow and hydras, then he went tank/gol. how do you beat metal once t gets tech?
Seeing as this is your 4th post, you probably will want to read the forum rules. Please DONT bump year old threads, make a new one so your question will be answered.
Btw, there are like two or three threads on how to beat terran metal with zerg that are currently bouncing around in the strategy forum. Use the search function or scroll through topic titles.
To answer your question, go mass muta + lings to beat metal.
Hold up.
He can't make new posts about old topics because it's already been answered, but he can't make new posts on those old topics either. So... basically, once we've looked at a topic, no more analysis is allowed?
And on topic, mass mutaling isn't a hard counter because as the game goes on, mutaling loses its effectiveness against masses of goliaths. The terran will stop tank production when he sees that you don't have any hydras, and you'll be stuck fighting upped range gols with mutas and lings, which isn't that great.
Muta is good to keep the terran in their base, but you shouldn't make too many. Make about 8 and drop two evo chambers, begin hydra upgrades, and make a den. Upgrade range and speed, and pump masses of hydras. If you time this correctly, your mutas and residual lings will still overpower their tanks/vultures/gols or at least stop them long enough to amass enough hydras (don't lose your mutas, though, you need them for harassment and guardians, ultraling doesn't fly vs metal). Hive tech when you start your second armor and attack upgrade, and as soon as that's done, greater spire for guardians. From there, just steamroll with hydra/guard.
The great thing about mutas is that you can keep the terran contained while you expand, but unless you switch to something more powerful, eventually they're just going to break out with oov amounts of metal.
He can't make new posts about old topics because it's already been answered, but he can't make new posts on those old topics either. So... basically, once we've looked at a topic, no more analysis is allowed?
And on topic, mass mutaling isn't a hard counter because as the game goes on, mutaling loses its effectiveness against masses of goliaths. The terran will stop tank production when he sees that you don't have any hydras, and you'll be stuck fighting upped range gols with mutas and lings, which isn't that great.
Muta is good to keep the terran in their base, but you shouldn't make too many. Make about 8 and drop two evo chambers, begin hydra upgrades, and make a den. Upgrade range and speed, and pump masses of hydras. If you time this correctly, your mutas and residual lings will still overpower their tanks/vultures/gols or at least stop them long enough to amass enough hydras (don't lose your mutas, though, you need them for harassment and guardians, ultraling doesn't fly vs metal). Hive tech when you start your second armor and attack upgrade, and as soon as that's done, greater spire for guardians. From there, just steamroll with hydra/guard.
The great thing about mutas is that you can keep the terran contained while you expand, but unless you switch to something more powerful, eventually they're just going to break out with oov amounts of metal.
You forgot two major things: Dark swarm and tanks. 8 muta won't do anything to harass vs metal t, all he needs is a few turrets. And if the terran knows how to use scan he's gonna find out about hydra. So;you can't harass+ little muta/ling = him taking his nat and producing tanks to counter hydra. Mass hydra get owned hard by a few siege tanks, and he's gonna be producing more units with the same number of expands.
Whilst if you mass muta/ling with your main and nat vs his main then you are getting twice as much gas so you can safely assume 1 muta and 2 lings per gollie he has (muta = 100 minerals and 2 lings =50 with double gas that evens out on a gollie) And if you can keep him from taking nat awhile whilst you expand twice and tech to hive and double evo chambers then its not going to be hard to win. Ultra/ling get owned by gollie/tank on their own, but once you get swarm, swarm+upgraded cracks pathetically own gollies, and ultra can take any tank fire.
On April 10 2005 14:58 tX.Ghanima wrote: cant u just do floating fact and try to kill his expo with 2 tanks on klif? it is very davastating for zerg... same time do 3 valks on main... and add m&m... make an exp... and kill em....
that sounds like a lot of money..
dude I always have like 8k mins/ 2k gas when the 20 minute nr is done. oh abnd vultueers aer teh wrsot unti evar.!!111!111 kekekeke
Most zergs (if the early drone does see the gas) will be able to tell you're either teching or expanding due to lack of marines on your ramp. If they suspect a tech they'll usually go air to protect their cliff if they have one and to see "what cards you're holding" by muta harassment.Obviously if you switch to vultures anytime in the early game four hatch speed hydras with speed overlords will GG u everytime =(
Late game vultures are a lot more common especially vs swarmers. In late game situations minefields always catch zerg players with their pants down. They're also amazing vs ultralisks.
Yeah, I was about to point out that very same game. Boxer vs. Junwi game 3... he does three fact vulture rush, a lot of good harrass keeping the zerg from expanding, thus forcing him to take out mines and the vultures themselves and - at the same time - letting the terran expand. Going pure vultures at start only takes gas to make the factories, so you can mass goliaths very easily after getting the expansion down, even on Nostalgia where it's mineral only. After that, well, you just need to play like boxer does Mech is strong, so don't stop harrassing Zerg and keep expanding yourself.
Of course, Zerg aren't dumb anymore... most go mutalisk now. So this strategy stops working and you have to focus more of your efforts to defend your base against mutalisk harrass... letting the Zerg expand and get even more mutas. that's why mech doesn't work unless Zerg plays it wrong. I think boxer was lucky in this game that junwi fell for fake double-rax starting build and had no choice but to stick with hydralisks
what kind of zerg suicide's an overlord every single game just to scout? a smart terran places the key buildings to his secret build far from where an overlord could easily peak in, marines would kill it before it saw a thing.
Tsunami did it basically every game he played, and I do it at least once if the game goes past 7~ minutes just to check how many sci vessels he has. It's not like you have slow lords for the whole game.
EPT
btw im going 90%muta which will own your build especially if i stay massmuta your mm count is so low. but good on maps like nostalgia where u cant really afford ovi speed and all the hyd ups and with vults u can prevent getting more gas
Mech is strong, so don't stop harrassing Zerg and keep expanding yourself.
