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SC2 player, want to get into BW - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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cattypakes
Profile Joined January 2011
6 Posts
June 19 2011 18:10 GMT
#21
On June 19 2011 20:43 sixfour wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2011 19:19 blubbdavid wrote:
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


This doesn't make any sense.


when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key



True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.

Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever
erikzbi
Profile Joined May 2011
China43 Posts
June 20 2011 04:54 GMT
#22
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


oots of other differences:
sc1:
pylon is p, overlord is o, marine is m, there's more i can name
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
June 20 2011 08:40 GMT
#23
On June 20 2011 13:54 erikzbi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


oots of other differences:
sc1:
pylon is p, overlord is o, marine is m, there's more i can name


'm' for muta's
OP, If you need practice partners, come find me, [PK]Black[CAT] @op PK
No, I'm not D-, but I have clan members that you can practice with at your level.
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-20 10:14:27
June 20 2011 10:13 GMT
#24
On June 20 2011 03:10 cattypakes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2011 20:43 sixfour wrote:
On June 19 2011 19:19 blubbdavid wrote:
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


This doesn't make any sense.


when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key



True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.

Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever


Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.

PvZ. 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 stargate, 7 robo/gateway.

Other: 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 robo/gateway

When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
7mk
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Germany10157 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-20 13:08:58
June 20 2011 13:07 GMT
#25
On June 19 2011 05:03 Dymond wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 18 2011 21:03 Navane wrote:
There is no AMM, so be prepared to get stomped 100 games before you get your first win.


Literally, I'm 0-86.


jesus watch some replays and copy the Bo some times vs PC or whatever...
I went 10-16 when I started playing ICCup
beep boop
TurboDreams
Profile Joined April 2009
United States427 Posts
June 20 2011 14:55 GMT
#26
On June 20 2011 22:07 7mk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 19 2011 05:03 Dymond wrote:
On June 18 2011 21:03 Navane wrote:
There is no AMM, so be prepared to get stomped 100 games before you get your first win.


Literally, I'm 0-86.


jesus watch some replays and copy the Bo some times vs PC or whatever...
I went 10-16 when I started playing ICCup

This is great advice, watch a ton of vods and look up build orders on liquipedia to get you started. There should be no reason to have like 0-86 if you stop and utilize all available resources at your disposal.
Music is the medicine of the mind || Kill a Zergling and a hundred more will take its place.
buhhy
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1113 Posts
June 20 2011 16:34 GMT
#27
On June 20 2011 23:55 Musiq wrote:
if you stop and utilize all available resources at your disposal.


Like DT rushes :D
renzy
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada781 Posts
June 20 2011 16:43 GMT
#28
On June 20 2011 19:13 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2011 03:10 cattypakes wrote:
On June 19 2011 20:43 sixfour wrote:
On June 19 2011 19:19 blubbdavid wrote:
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


This doesn't make any sense.


when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key



True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.

Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever


Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.

PvZ. 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 stargate, 7 robo/gateway.

Other: 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 robo/gateway

When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.


I think the 0p9p8p setup isn't as good as it seems. It may seem smart to use hotkeys like this, but I think using 4 for nexus and physically sliding your hand over is better for the long run, because you get warmed up and get a feel for where "P" is in the early game, so that in late game, its quite a bit easier to put down pylons, since you're sliding your hand over anyways. 6789 and maybe 0 should all be used for gateways so that once u get to 12 gates, its easier to macro, because an f2 screen should be able to get 8 gates, while ur 4 hotkeys take care of the others.

I know progamers use this setup, but I don't know what blue and green ranked protoss use. Most yellow ranks like myself use this setup I think.
Bisu is the man
Frequencyy
Profile Joined April 2011
United States344 Posts
June 20 2011 18:53 GMT
#29
On June 18 2011 19:07 Funnytoss wrote:
The most obvious thing (besides the things you've listed) as that the units are different, and as such you might find yourself preferring a different race. Try all of the races when you first start out, then stick with one you feel comfortable with for at least some period of time.


Do what this guy says, don't go in thinking, "Oh I'll just play protoss because that's what race I played in broodwar." The two races are drastically different in play style, in sc2 protoss is a race that kind of sits back and gets a sick deathball or they go for more of an agressive rush (4 gate/6gate/etc.). In bw protoss did have tons of timings like they do in sc2 but they are much more aggressive and don't try to turtle a deathball comp. Liquipedia is an AMAZING site for learning builds and generally understanding the game. I definitely recommend trying all races before settling on one. Don't lose confidence as well considering even the lowest of low players on iccup are basically diamond-masters level in starcraft 2.
You will not do incredible things without an incredible dream
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
June 21 2011 00:00 GMT
#30
I should make a big-ass list of major differences between the two games for the benefit of anyone who wants to switch. Here's some things off the top of my head.

1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.

2. SC2 is only now starting to standardize, but BW is down to a science. Expect to see the same openings a lot, which is both good and bad

3. It takes a lot fewer workers to saturate a base. This means you can have 4-5 bases running without making a rediculous amount of probes, whereas in SC2 4 mining bases at once is a bit silly (unless you're 110-drone Nestea). This doesn't affect expansion timings as much as you might think, because bases also last longer, but you want to expand as much as you can get away with.

4. BW uses damage resistance, SC2 uses damage bonuses. Thus, units have higher "base" damage than in SC2, but actually take longer to kill things.

5. Blue Flame hellion drops are now a protoss unit, called the reaver. Reavers shoot banelings that sometimes get performance anxiety and fail to explode. Vultures, the BW equivalent to Hellions, can instead lay mines.

6. High ground advantage is different. You don't need vision to shoot back at a high ground unit that's attacking you, but you have a miss chance
Magus
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
June 21 2011 00:06 GMT
#31
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote:
Reavers shoot banelings that sometimes get performance anxiety and fail to explode.

That might be the best thing I have heard all day.
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-21 03:13:44
June 21 2011 03:07 GMT
#32
On June 21 2011 01:43 renzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 20 2011 19:13 sluggaslamoo wrote:
On June 20 2011 03:10 cattypakes wrote:
On June 19 2011 20:43 sixfour wrote:
On June 19 2011 19:19 blubbdavid wrote:
On June 18 2011 23:22 sixfour wrote:
p for probes


This doesn't make any sense.


when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key



True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.

Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever


Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.

PvZ. 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 stargate, 7 robo/gateway.

Other: 0 nexus, 9 nexus, 8 robo/gateway

When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.


I think the 0p9p8p setup isn't as good as it seems. It may seem smart to use hotkeys like this, but I think using 4 for nexus and physically sliding your hand over is better for the long run, because you get warmed up and get a feel for where "P" is in the early game, so that in late game, its quite a bit easier to put down pylons, since you're sliding your hand over anyways. 6789 and maybe 0 should all be used for gateways so that once u get to 12 gates, its easier to macro, because an f2 screen should be able to get 8 gates, while ur 4 hotkeys take care of the others.

I know progamers use this setup, but I don't know what blue and green ranked protoss use. Most yellow ranks like myself use this setup I think.


Problem is corsair is also 0. Its much easier to go 0p9p8o, than 4p5p6o, No only that having 09 on nexuses and 8 on stargate frees 1234567 for units. If you get in the habit of playing on the right-hand side, it allows you to have much better army control once you get in the late game.

Especially in PvP/PvT where you need to 1a2a34a5a6a7a around the map to keep their army in check.

Usually you use fkeys for bases because you have to go back to them anyway to send workers to mine, and have production buildings be double tapping on a hotkey.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
June 21 2011 03:32 GMT
#33
I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite
BW player want to get into SC2
Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but
still... just wondering
Tekken ProGamer
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
June 21 2011 03:49 GMT
#34
On June 21 2011 12:32 therockmanxx wrote:
I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite
BW player want to get into SC2
Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but
still... just wondering


I think I'll do a big long "Conversion" thread tonight for people who want to try each other's games, because I encourage that kind of college experimentation.

Don't know where I'll post it, though :/
Ribbon
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5278 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-21 08:28:46
June 21 2011 08:11 GMT
#35
SC2 to Brood War Conversion Guide: Terran

General: From a mechanical standpoint, SC2 Terran to BW Terran is the biggest jump, because Terrans benefit the most from the MBS. BW Terran don't have MULEs, but they have the most efficient units. Several buildings have add-ons, though only the command center has two to choose from. You can't switch add-ons from one type of building to another; only starports can build control towers, for instance. BW terrans get scan from an add-on. This add-on does nothing but scan, so scans don't really cost BW Terrans anything, unlike the SC2 Terrans who give up a mule.

Rax units
Infantry is mainly seen in TvZ, with Mech being the standard in TvT and TvP, due to things like Reavers, Psi Storms, and Tanks melting it quite badly.

The marine exists in both games, relatively unchanged. Instead of the combat shield upgrade, they get a range increase, but stim remains the most important upgrade. Medics are better at healing than medivacs, so "over-stimming" is less of a concern. Medics are the same as in the the campaign. They have three spells researchable at the academy, but the spells are all kind of niche.

There are no Marauders to tank for your marines. The closest equivalent is the firebat, which attacks like a hellion in SC2. Firebats are sometimes seen in early TvZ because they're great against Zerglings, but aren't really a mainstay unit.

The Ghost is substantially less useful in BW than in SC2. It can't EMP protoss or snipe terran infantry. It has a spell that can stop mechanical units from acting, which is situational. Nukes in BW are completely worthless.

The is no BW equivalent to the reaper.

Factory Units
The Vulture might initially appear a poor man's Hellion, but it's Spider Mines are a force to be reckoned with. Spider Mines are burrowed units with detection that stay where they are until an enemy ground unit gets too close, at which point they will chase the unit and explode, dealing massive splash damage to friend and foe alike. They like to chase enemy units into your own tank lines sometimes, because they're assholes.


(Two DTs)

Tanks are basically the same. While SC2 tanks have smart fire, BW tanks have dumb as shit fire. A common practice in PvT is to drop a zealot on one tank, causing all the other tanks to shoot the zealot and kill the first tank from splash. This is still a good technique in SC2, but much moreso in BW.

Goliaths are kinda like big marines that are good at killing air. You see them as a counter to carriers and things like that.

Starport units
The wraith is a flying unit with a really good AtA attack and a mediocre AtG attack. It can cloak, and is very fast. It's sometimes used en masse against Zerg (as in the Upmagic build), and you'll often see a player in TvT get a single wraith to spot, like vikings in SC2 if they could plink ground.

Valkyries are like vikings without at ground mode. Their attack does splash, so they're fantastic at killing mutas, and mass wraith TvT if that happens (I've seen it once somewhere). Unfortunately, they don't work lategame. I don't mean there's an endgame unit that counters them, they literally WILL NOT FIRE if there's too much activity on the screen. This make them much less useful than you'd think.

Science Vessels are the caster unit that detects, but they don't have much in common with Ravens. They have the ghost's EMP spell, which hits a much larger area and is pretty boss, and the irradiate spell. Irradiate is a status effect that deals constant damage to a biological unit and any bio unit near it, so it's great against clumps of Muta (even pros can take a while to separate the irradiated muta from the pack). Irradiate deals 250 damage, which kills most things. It's common in TvZ for two science vessels to irradiate each other (they take no damage because they're not bio units) and patrol over drones (which do take damage) to wipe out mineral lines. They have a defensive matrix spell as well, which makes the targeted unit fuck near invincible for awhile.

Dropships are medivacs that don't heal, but you still want them because drops are still good.

BW Battlecruisers have a slow rate of fire and do a lot of damage. They're much slower than the SC2 counterpart, but can still sometimes break stalemates in TvT.

On June 21 2011 12:32 therockmanxx wrote:
I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite
BW player want to get into SC2
Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but
still... just wondering


I think it might be helpful to look at SC2 from a Brood War perspective, just to highlight the differences between the two games, but the SC2 forums can probably answer better.


+ Show Spoiler +
BW to SC2 conversion guide: Terran

Rax units
SC2 marines are goddamn monsters. They do a massive amount of DPS, and can stutterstep to move while shooting. However, because medivacs are worse at healing (and you have fewer than you would medics), you have to be careful about over-stimming them. In early GSLs, zerg players would attack with mutas, and Terrans would stim THEIR ENTIRE ARMY to deal with it, depleting all their medivac energy, which is a pretty good reason to not have your whole army on one hotkey. Even if you're bad, it's hard to accidentally stim 50 marines at once in BW, and you can get away with it a bit more, too. In TvZ, you want to be dropping marines as much as possible on one side of the map while attacking on the other. Bunker rushing is actually standard TvZ, but Zergs have gotten good at defending that. Damn good. A marine-scv all-in used to be standard during the dark times of SC2 (GSL3), but pro zergs learned how to deal with it and the ladder doesn't use it as much because they're copying the pros. (And because of the popularity of the Spanishiwa opening on the ladder for Zergs)

Marauders are beefy, but are really good at killing armored units and buildings. Marauder drops can thus be very effective at sniping tech buildings, especially against protoss. In TvT, Marauders can break lines if the tanks don't have marine support, and juggling marine/marauder/tank numbers is an important part of TvT. Marauders are also how bronze-level players defend against banelings, but it's not the best way to do it.

Reapers are a unit that doesn't have an SC2 equivalent. It's a really fast unit that kills light units pretty well, and is ludicrously powerful against buildings for some reason. They can also jump up and down cliffs, so it's hard to kill one of the Terran is good. The combination of cheap, fast, and able to avoid ramps makes a reaper great as a scout, but it's rare to get lots of them at a pro level (though I see mass reaper as a counter to Spanishiwa. I've yet to lose to it, though, and I don't think it's good as a build)

Ghosts are way better in SC2. They're easier to get, and can EMP protoss. Their snipe ability deals 45 damage to a bio unit, can be recast almost instantly and is a little underused. Ghost rushes are sometimes viable, but they're mainly lategame TvP or TvZ.

Factory Units
After spider mines were all executed as traitors, someone strapped a firebat to a vulture and called it a hellion. Hellions don't have mines, but they're great at killing light units like marines and workers. The blue flame upgrade increases that bonus, making them fucking ludicrous at killing workers. 4 blue flame hellions in a medivac can and often do kill 20+ workers. Lately, players are discovering you can micro them against marines a little, too, and they're pretty brutal. Hellion drop into banshee is a standard aggressive opening in TvT, but hellions are great against Zerg and Protoss, too. However, as the game goes one, they find themselves less useful (usually) without spider mines, and tend to fall to the wayside.

Tanks are tanks are tanks. They're not as powerful as BW tanks, but they're smarter. SC2 Terran is generally less inclined to kill itself than BW Terran can be.

The Thor is a giant-ass slow-ass goliath. They do splash damage to air, and are thus often used against mass muta. Mutalisks can magic box a thor to avoid the splash (Magic Box in SC2 does the opposite of magic box in BW). If you go mass Thor in TvZ, Brood Lords will kill you. If the Zerg forgets about Brood Lords (like I tend to), Thors kill everything else with ludicrous cost-efficiency. In TvP, thors aren't used that often, especially now that Templar can feedback them for massive damage. It used to be that the only way for a protoss to counter mass thor was to go mass immortal, making Thors the only unit Blizzard has nerfed (making them feedbackable) for the stated reason of being incredibly fucking boring otherwise. I don't approve of them. Luckily, you don't see mass thor in pro games. Thank christ.

Starport Units
Vikings are flying units that can only hit air. They can transform into ground units that can only hit ground, making them the only unit in either game that can drop itself. Tank/Viking was a common TvT strategy a little while ago, but it turns out drops are really good against that. Nowadays, Vikings are gotten more re-actively against Brood Lords or Colossi. In TvT, a player going viking/tank will transition into viking/battlecruiser, to which the other Terran counters by going mass Valkryie (with Thors? It doesn't happen often). Valkyries can BARELY kite DCs, leading to some cool-looking BC/Viking micro that I haven't seen a lot of. Players who open banshee against Zerg (somewhat rare) usually get a viking to kll overlords with as a followup.

Banshees are flying units that hit ground hard and can cloak. They're flying, ranged DTs. As I mentioned, Hellion into Banshee is a common SC2 opening, and can sometimes be a closing as well. It's pretty common to see both players in a TvT go banshee. Microing a banshee against marines is a little hard. Microing marines against a banshee is a little hard. Microing marines against a banshee in your base while microing a banshee against marines in his base is really really hard, making banshee v banshee one of the more mechanically difficult openings.

Ravens are the science vessel of SC2, but have completely different spells. Point Defense drone is a gimpy dark swarm, and auto-turret drops a turret that does decent damage and lasts like ten years if not killed). The upgradable seeker missile is fucking amazing against tank lines, and otherwise useless against people who can micro. Ravens aren't that common, but I saw a game at Dreamhack where both players went mass Raven/Viking for some ungodly reason. It was bizarre and a little awesome.

SC2 battlecruisers are fucking ninjas. They are way way faster than the BW counterpart. Late game TvT can often turn into BC/Viking, but it's rarely seen in other matchups.


I'll do one for P and Z later, but this took forever to write
Magus
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada450 Posts
June 21 2011 08:43 GMT
#36
Mass wraith is actually only really common in TvT, I don't think a 2port wraith is going to build up a huge fleet vs Zerg. One of the players should be dead in the time it would take for that.

D-Matrix is +250 hp for a set amount of time.

Other than that it looks good as a general overview. Adding in differences in the playstyle of the races is probably a good idea.
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3693 Posts
June 21 2011 10:58 GMT
#37
Wow Ribbon that's some extreme;y in-depth shit, thanks dude!
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
June 21 2011 11:54 GMT
#38
On June 21 2011 17:11 Ribbon wrote:
SC2 to Brood War Conversion Guide: Terran

Nukes in BW are completely worthless.



Tell that to Boxer.
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
wassbix
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada499 Posts
June 21 2011 12:48 GMT
#39
Not to be rude but making a BW -> SC2 conversion guide in a thread specifically asking for SC2 -> BW seems a little out of place and not what he is asking for.

To OP biggest switch you'll notice is that macro actually exists in BW and is quite important. No longer can you tend to your expos and production with solely hotkeys, but instead smart usage of F keys and good allocation of your attention (when you can look away from a battle, etc) will determine your macro capabilities.
caruso
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Germany733 Posts
June 21 2011 13:21 GMT
#40
On June 21 2011 21:48 wassbix wrote:
Not to be rude but making a BW -> SC2 conversion guide in a thread specifically asking for SC2 -> BW seems a little out of place and not what he is asking for.




If only there were some magic way to transport text from one thread to another.
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