Title says it all. I'm a diamond-level SC2 protoss (so, pretty bad ._.), and after watching a bunch of VODs of boxer, iloveoov, savior, jaedong, july, flash, bisu, etc. I went out and bought the SC1 battle chest and am gonna make a concerted effort to play and (hopefully) get good at BW!
That said, I know that BW is a lot harder for me as an SC2 player. I won't have any luxuries like MBS, infinite unit selection, automining, etc. and I'm willing to accept all of those things as part of the game. That said, what else about BW will I need to know that I probably won't know as an SC2 player?
The most obvious thing (besides the things you've listed) as that the units are different, and as such you might find yourself preferring a different race. Try all of the races when you first start out, then stick with one you feel comfortable with for at least some period of time.
Winging builds will mostly likely get you killed a lot of times. In SC2, the build orders are a bit more flexible and follow ups are copious and abundant.
There are set choices in BW, however, that you need to stick to if you want to stay alive long enough.
That huge explosion that just shattered your ears and made you think you lost is actually a siege tank. That little bubbly sound that you thought was from a siege tank was actually from a vulture.
Yep, it's gonna take a big effort. Liquipedia is very good (I've come across people who don't understand the concept of build orders very well), make sure you get the details right! It's a while before you can adapt them, you have to really know the deal.
Pick a race, and practice it like mad. Don't expect to win even vaguely reliably any time soon- but the reward of the games you do win will be so worth it, if you feel your play improve on the way up.
there are location hotkeys f2 f3 f4 u can press to "hotkey" an area of ground such as your main gateway/rax/hatchery cluster and your choke point. sadly i did not see this in sc2, no idea why.
On June 19 2011 03:11 FyRe_DragOn wrote: there are location hotkeys f2 f3 f4 u can press to "hotkey" an area of ground such as your main gateway/rax/hatchery cluster and your choke point. sadly i did not see this in sc2, no idea why.
Location hotkeys exist in sc2. They are f5 and onwards by default, but you can customize them to f1,f2,f3,f4 if you want. (also, it's ctrl+f5, instead of shift by default)
hmm, either go zerg and 4 pool OR play protoss... dont EVER pick terran, if you do pick terran dont EVER go bio... But i think protoss is better for starting in BW period, you can use reaver drops, DTs, Storms and early zealots and win a bunch of game, zerg defilers with darkswarm and consume is hard on the apm, terran mines and bio is very hard on apm also..
Its going to take a lot of work and probably 2-3 weeks of constant work before you earn yourself your first win. The mechanics of bw to me will be quite hard to get used to since you played sc2 from the start.
oots of other differences: sc1: pylon is p, overlord is o, marine is m, there's more i can name
'm' for muta's OP, If you need practice partners, come find me, [PK]Black[CAT] @op PK No, I'm not D-, but I have clan members that you can practice with at your level.
when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key
True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.
Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever
Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.
On June 18 2011 21:03 Navane wrote: There is no AMM, so be prepared to get stomped 100 games before you get your first win.
Literally, I'm 0-86.
jesus watch some replays and copy the Bo some times vs PC or whatever... I went 10-16 when I started playing ICCup
This is great advice, watch a ton of vods and look up build orders on liquipedia to get you started. There should be no reason to have like 0-86 if you stop and utilize all available resources at your disposal.
when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key
True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.
Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever
Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.
When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.
I think the 0p9p8p setup isn't as good as it seems. It may seem smart to use hotkeys like this, but I think using 4 for nexus and physically sliding your hand over is better for the long run, because you get warmed up and get a feel for where "P" is in the early game, so that in late game, its quite a bit easier to put down pylons, since you're sliding your hand over anyways. 6789 and maybe 0 should all be used for gateways so that once u get to 12 gates, its easier to macro, because an f2 screen should be able to get 8 gates, while ur 4 hotkeys take care of the others.
I know progamers use this setup, but I don't know what blue and green ranked protoss use. Most yellow ranks like myself use this setup I think.
On June 18 2011 19:07 Funnytoss wrote: The most obvious thing (besides the things you've listed) as that the units are different, and as such you might find yourself preferring a different race. Try all of the races when you first start out, then stick with one you feel comfortable with for at least some period of time.
Do what this guy says, don't go in thinking, "Oh I'll just play protoss because that's what race I played in broodwar." The two races are drastically different in play style, in sc2 protoss is a race that kind of sits back and gets a sick deathball or they go for more of an agressive rush (4 gate/6gate/etc.). In bw protoss did have tons of timings like they do in sc2 but they are much more aggressive and don't try to turtle a deathball comp. Liquipedia is an AMAZING site for learning builds and generally understanding the game. I definitely recommend trying all races before settling on one. Don't lose confidence as well considering even the lowest of low players on iccup are basically diamond-masters level in starcraft 2.
I should make a big-ass list of major differences between the two games for the benefit of anyone who wants to switch. Here's some things off the top of my head.
1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
2. SC2 is only now starting to standardize, but BW is down to a science. Expect to see the same openings a lot, which is both good and bad
3. It takes a lot fewer workers to saturate a base. This means you can have 4-5 bases running without making a rediculous amount of probes, whereas in SC2 4 mining bases at once is a bit silly (unless you're 110-drone Nestea). This doesn't affect expansion timings as much as you might think, because bases also last longer, but you want to expand as much as you can get away with.
4. BW uses damage resistance, SC2 uses damage bonuses. Thus, units have higher "base" damage than in SC2, but actually take longer to kill things.
5. Blue Flame hellion drops are now a protoss unit, called the reaver. Reavers shoot banelings that sometimes get performance anxiety and fail to explode. Vultures, the BW equivalent to Hellions, can instead lay mines.
6. High ground advantage is different. You don't need vision to shoot back at a high ground unit that's attacking you, but you have a miss chance
when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key
True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.
Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever
Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.
When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.
I think the 0p9p8p setup isn't as good as it seems. It may seem smart to use hotkeys like this, but I think using 4 for nexus and physically sliding your hand over is better for the long run, because you get warmed up and get a feel for where "P" is in the early game, so that in late game, its quite a bit easier to put down pylons, since you're sliding your hand over anyways. 6789 and maybe 0 should all be used for gateways so that once u get to 12 gates, its easier to macro, because an f2 screen should be able to get 8 gates, while ur 4 hotkeys take care of the others.
I know progamers use this setup, but I don't know what blue and green ranked protoss use. Most yellow ranks like myself use this setup I think.
Problem is corsair is also 0. Its much easier to go 0p9p8o, than 4p5p6o, No only that having 09 on nexuses and 8 on stargate frees 1234567 for units. If you get in the habit of playing on the right-hand side, it allows you to have much better army control once you get in the late game.
Especially in PvP/PvT where you need to 1a2a34a5a6a7a around the map to keep their army in check.
Usually you use fkeys for bases because you have to go back to them anyway to send workers to mine, and have production buildings be double tapping on a hotkey.
I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite BW player want to get into SC2 Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but still... just wondering
On June 21 2011 12:32 therockmanxx wrote: I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite BW player want to get into SC2 Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but still... just wondering
I think I'll do a big long "Conversion" thread tonight for people who want to try each other's games, because I encourage that kind of college experimentation.
General: From a mechanical standpoint, SC2 Terran to BW Terran is the biggest jump, because Terrans benefit the most from the MBS. BW Terran don't have MULEs, but they have the most efficient units. Several buildings have add-ons, though only the command center has two to choose from. You can't switch add-ons from one type of building to another; only starports can build control towers, for instance. BW terrans get scan from an add-on. This add-on does nothing but scan, so scans don't really cost BW Terrans anything, unlike the SC2 Terrans who give up a mule.
Rax units Infantry is mainly seen in TvZ, with Mech being the standard in TvT and TvP, due to things like Reavers, Psi Storms, and Tanks melting it quite badly.
The marine exists in both games, relatively unchanged. Instead of the combat shield upgrade, they get a range increase, but stim remains the most important upgrade. Medics are better at healing than medivacs, so "over-stimming" is less of a concern. Medics are the same as in the the campaign. They have three spells researchable at the academy, but the spells are all kind of niche.
There are no Marauders to tank for your marines. The closest equivalent is the firebat, which attacks like a hellion in SC2. Firebats are sometimes seen in early TvZ because they're great against Zerglings, but aren't really a mainstay unit.
The Ghost is substantially less useful in BW than in SC2. It can't EMP protoss or snipe terran infantry. It has a spell that can stop mechanical units from acting, which is situational. Nukes in BW are completely worthless.
The is no BW equivalent to the reaper.
Factory Units The Vulture might initially appear a poor man's Hellion, but it's Spider Mines are a force to be reckoned with. Spider Mines are burrowed units with detection that stay where they are until an enemy ground unit gets too close, at which point they will chase the unit and explode, dealing massive splash damage to friend and foe alike. They like to chase enemy units into your own tank lines sometimes, because they're assholes.
(Two DTs)
Tanks are basically the same. While SC2 tanks have smart fire, BW tanks have dumb as shit fire. A common practice in PvT is to drop a zealot on one tank, causing all the other tanks to shoot the zealot and kill the first tank from splash. This is still a good technique in SC2, but much moreso in BW.
Goliaths are kinda like big marines that are good at killing air. You see them as a counter to carriers and things like that.
Starport units The wraith is a flying unit with a really good AtA attack and a mediocre AtG attack. It can cloak, and is very fast. It's sometimes used en masse against Zerg (as in the Upmagic build), and you'll often see a player in TvT get a single wraith to spot, like vikings in SC2 if they could plink ground.
Valkyries are like vikings without at ground mode. Their attack does splash, so they're fantastic at killing mutas, and mass wraith TvT if that happens (I've seen it once somewhere). Unfortunately, they don't work lategame. I don't mean there's an endgame unit that counters them, they literally WILL NOT FIRE if there's too much activity on the screen. This make them much less useful than you'd think.
Science Vessels are the caster unit that detects, but they don't have much in common with Ravens. They have the ghost's EMP spell, which hits a much larger area and is pretty boss, and the irradiate spell. Irradiate is a status effect that deals constant damage to a biological unit and any bio unit near it, so it's great against clumps of Muta (even pros can take a while to separate the irradiated muta from the pack). Irradiate deals 250 damage, which kills most things. It's common in TvZ for two science vessels to irradiate each other (they take no damage because they're not bio units) and patrol over drones (which do take damage) to wipe out mineral lines. They have a defensive matrix spell as well, which makes the targeted unit fuck near invincible for awhile.
Dropships are medivacs that don't heal, but you still want them because drops are still good.
BW Battlecruisers have a slow rate of fire and do a lot of damage. They're much slower than the SC2 counterpart, but can still sometimes break stalemates in TvT.
On June 21 2011 12:32 therockmanxx wrote: I wonder if you actually need a thread about the opposite BW player want to get into SC2 Im pretty sure most of you would think that is very funny but still... just wondering
I think it might be helpful to look at SC2 from a Brood War perspective, just to highlight the differences between the two games, but the SC2 forums can probably answer better.
Rax units SC2 marines are goddamn monsters. They do a massive amount of DPS, and can stutterstep to move while shooting. However, because medivacs are worse at healing (and you have fewer than you would medics), you have to be careful about over-stimming them. In early GSLs, zerg players would attack with mutas, and Terrans would stim THEIR ENTIRE ARMY to deal with it, depleting all their medivac energy, which is a pretty good reason to not have your whole army on one hotkey. Even if you're bad, it's hard to accidentally stim 50 marines at once in BW, and you can get away with it a bit more, too. In TvZ, you want to be dropping marines as much as possible on one side of the map while attacking on the other. Bunker rushing is actually standard TvZ, but Zergs have gotten good at defending that. Damn good. A marine-scv all-in used to be standard during the dark times of SC2 (GSL3), but pro zergs learned how to deal with it and the ladder doesn't use it as much because they're copying the pros. (And because of the popularity of the Spanishiwa opening on the ladder for Zergs)
Marauders are beefy, but are really good at killing armored units and buildings. Marauder drops can thus be very effective at sniping tech buildings, especially against protoss. In TvT, Marauders can break lines if the tanks don't have marine support, and juggling marine/marauder/tank numbers is an important part of TvT. Marauders are also how bronze-level players defend against banelings, but it's not the best way to do it.
Reapers are a unit that doesn't have an SC2 equivalent. It's a really fast unit that kills light units pretty well, and is ludicrously powerful against buildings for some reason. They can also jump up and down cliffs, so it's hard to kill one of the Terran is good. The combination of cheap, fast, and able to avoid ramps makes a reaper great as a scout, but it's rare to get lots of them at a pro level (though I see mass reaper as a counter to Spanishiwa. I've yet to lose to it, though, and I don't think it's good as a build)
Ghosts are way better in SC2. They're easier to get, and can EMP protoss. Their snipe ability deals 45 damage to a bio unit, can be recast almost instantly and is a little underused. Ghost rushes are sometimes viable, but they're mainly lategame TvP or TvZ.
Factory Units After spider mines were all executed as traitors, someone strapped a firebat to a vulture and called it a hellion. Hellions don't have mines, but they're great at killing light units like marines and workers. The blue flame upgrade increases that bonus, making them fucking ludicrous at killing workers. 4 blue flame hellions in a medivac can and often do kill 20+ workers. Lately, players are discovering you can micro them against marines a little, too, and they're pretty brutal. Hellion drop into banshee is a standard aggressive opening in TvT, but hellions are great against Zerg and Protoss, too. However, as the game goes one, they find themselves less useful (usually) without spider mines, and tend to fall to the wayside.
Tanks are tanks are tanks. They're not as powerful as BW tanks, but they're smarter. SC2 Terran is generally less inclined to kill itself than BW Terran can be.
The Thor is a giant-ass slow-ass goliath. They do splash damage to air, and are thus often used against mass muta. Mutalisks can magic box a thor to avoid the splash (Magic Box in SC2 does the opposite of magic box in BW). If you go mass Thor in TvZ, Brood Lords will kill you. If the Zerg forgets about Brood Lords (like I tend to), Thors kill everything else with ludicrous cost-efficiency. In TvP, thors aren't used that often, especially now that Templar can feedback them for massive damage. It used to be that the only way for a protoss to counter mass thor was to go mass immortal, making Thors the only unit Blizzard has nerfed (making them feedbackable) for the stated reason of being incredibly fucking boring otherwise. I don't approve of them. Luckily, you don't see mass thor in pro games. Thank christ.
Starport Units Vikings are flying units that can only hit air. They can transform into ground units that can only hit ground, making them the only unit in either game that can drop itself. Tank/Viking was a common TvT strategy a little while ago, but it turns out drops are really good against that. Nowadays, Vikings are gotten more re-actively against Brood Lords or Colossi. In TvT, a player going viking/tank will transition into viking/battlecruiser, to which the other Terran counters by going mass Valkryie (with Thors? It doesn't happen often). Valkyries can BARELY kite DCs, leading to some cool-looking BC/Viking micro that I haven't seen a lot of. Players who open banshee against Zerg (somewhat rare) usually get a viking to kll overlords with as a followup.
Banshees are flying units that hit ground hard and can cloak. They're flying, ranged DTs. As I mentioned, Hellion into Banshee is a common SC2 opening, and can sometimes be a closing as well. It's pretty common to see both players in a TvT go banshee. Microing a banshee against marines is a little hard. Microing marines against a banshee is a little hard. Microing marines against a banshee in your base while microing a banshee against marines in his base is really really hard, making banshee v banshee one of the more mechanically difficult openings.
Ravens are the science vessel of SC2, but have completely different spells. Point Defense drone is a gimpy dark swarm, and auto-turret drops a turret that does decent damage and lasts like ten years if not killed). The upgradable seeker missile is fucking amazing against tank lines, and otherwise useless against people who can micro. Ravens aren't that common, but I saw a game at Dreamhack where both players went mass Raven/Viking for some ungodly reason. It was bizarre and a little awesome.
SC2 battlecruisers are fucking ninjas. They are way way faster than the BW counterpart. Late game TvT can often turn into BC/Viking, but it's rarely seen in other matchups.
I'll do one for P and Z later, but this took forever to write
Mass wraith is actually only really common in TvT, I don't think a 2port wraith is going to build up a huge fleet vs Zerg. One of the players should be dead in the time it would take for that.
D-Matrix is +250 hp for a set amount of time.
Other than that it looks good as a general overview. Adding in differences in the playstyle of the races is probably a good idea.
Not to be rude but making a BW -> SC2 conversion guide in a thread specifically asking for SC2 -> BW seems a little out of place and not what he is asking for.
To OP biggest switch you'll notice is that macro actually exists in BW and is quite important. No longer can you tend to your expos and production with solely hotkeys, but instead smart usage of F keys and good allocation of your attention (when you can look away from a battle, etc) will determine your macro capabilities.
On June 21 2011 21:48 wassbix wrote: Not to be rude but making a BW -> SC2 conversion guide in a thread specifically asking for SC2 -> BW seems a little out of place and not what he is asking for.
If only there were some magic way to transport text from one thread to another.
On June 18 2011 21:03 Navane wrote: There is no AMM, so be prepared to get stomped 100 games before you get your first win.
Literally, I'm 0-86.
jesus watch some replays and copy the Bo some times vs PC or whatever... I went 10-16 when I started playing ICCup
With what kind of cheese? I guess it's possible with Protoss because you don't have to micro, but even then it takes a lot of practice macroing up the build order, unless you're doing abusive stuff like 2 Gate openings. I still don't understand why 2 gate is the norm in iccup PvT, when it's never used in pro games. People look too much in the short term.
Everyone that has posted in this thread so far definitely has one thing right, and that is that BW is a lot harder than SC2. I began playing BW in anticipation for SC2 around May last year. Not that I have not played it before, but that was when I was very young and did not continue to play for long. But at last I got my own copy of BW last year. Since the inception of me playing BW I immediately watched a load of pro replays and learned build orders and styles of play. In a matter of weeks I at least gained a good understanding of how to play.
Playing mostly on the European server, I got lucky and won 2-3 games in the first week, but I guess my opponents weren't that good. But in general you will find that most players you will face are pretty solid in their play. On ICCUP it is definitely challenging, and there is where you will truly learn how to play the game. Since SC2 came out I have not played BW much, but during the latter times of my time with BW I still struggled to win though, hardly winning much.
Overall, watch enough replays to therefore gain a good understanding of the game and train hard. I cannot emphasize that enough. Training constantly was most certainly the factor that helped me to learn to play BW. And last but not least, try to enjoy it even though the game is very competitive
mass games definitely is the best way to improve youre going to lose a lot, dont let it discourage you sometimes youll lose and youll think wow, i just got fucking owned
but sometimes youll be confused and lose a game you thought you were winning, or just lose to something and have no idea what happened so in games like those its important to watch the replay and figure out what went wrong, and how to fix it
other than that just look up safe, standard BOs, practice them and youll improve.
On June 21 2011 21:48 wassbix wrote: Not to be rude but making a BW -> SC2 conversion guide in a thread specifically asking for SC2 -> BW seems a little out of place and not what he is asking for.
Someone else asked, and I put it in spoiler tags for him.
To OP biggest switch you'll notice is that macro actually exists in BW and is quite important. No longer can you tend to your expos and production with solely hotkeys, but instead smart usage of F keys and good allocation of your attention (when you can look away from a battle, etc) will determine your macro capabilities.
"Solely" hotkeys is a bit of an exaggeration. You do need to pop back to your base fairly regularly as all three races, for building construction, mules, chrono boosts, etc.
SC2 Zerg really doesn't benefit much from easymodo mechanics on the macro side of things (the micro side, though...), because they hotkey all their hatches individually (or their queens individually), and have to go home every 30 seconds to inject and creep spread. Or, as Idra infamously put it
Which is what SC2 Zerg do every 30 seconds. So if you want to dip your toes into the wonders of mechanics, try SC2 Zerg, then BW Zerg, then BW Protoss, then BW Terran.
BW Terrans mechanics venture only the ridiculous. Playing Terran in BW, I often feel like the game itself is my opponent and the other guy doesn't even matter. Click m click m click m click m click m click c click m click m click m click m click c....
Edit: Anyway, OPs only in diamond. He can't even master SC2's mechanics.
when i first picked up sc2 i was confused that probes were on a different key
True that, I'm pretty much going zerg because I can't stand probes and pylons being on 'p'.
Anways, thanks for not being a bunch of assholes and giving me actual advice!! love y'all forever
Nah man P for probe is awesome. It means you can have you buildings hotkeyed on the right hand side, while your units on the left. And making probes is way easier than the other two races.
When you want to make probes just go 0p9p, much easier than 4sd5sd.
I think the 0p9p8p setup isn't as good as it seems. It may seem smart to use hotkeys like this, but I think using 4 for nexus and physically sliding your hand over is better for the long run, because you get warmed up and get a feel for where "P" is in the early game, so that in late game, its quite a bit easier to put down pylons, since you're sliding your hand over anyways. 6789 and maybe 0 should all be used for gateways so that once u get to 12 gates, its easier to macro, because an f2 screen should be able to get 8 gates, while ur 4 hotkeys take care of the others.
I know progamers use this setup, but I don't know what blue and green ranked protoss use. Most yellow ranks like myself use this setup I think.
Problem is corsair is also 0. Its much easier to go 0p9p8o, than 4p5p6o, No only that having 09 on nexuses and 8 on stargate frees 1234567 for units. If you get in the habit of playing on the right-hand side, it allows you to have much better army control once you get in the late game.
Especially in PvP/PvT where you need to 1a2a34a5a6a7a around the map to keep their army in check.
Usually you use fkeys for bases because you have to go back to them anyway to send workers to mine, and have production buildings be double tapping on a hotkey.
To be honest, if you need more than 6 hotkeys for units, you have too little probes. Most progamers use this set up because 1-5 as units guarantees enough saturation. Also, in this set up, an f key is natural, 4 is the only nexus hotkeyed.
Anyways, I guess this setup depends on preference, and ur grasp of ur worker to unit ratio. I find this useful because It'll tell me when I stop making workers, or if I have enough workers for that matter, as a protoss player.
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy. On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy.
It's greedy compared to a 4 warpgate rush, or even a 3gate expo. Forge FE is viable in both games, but it's MUCH more common on ICCUP than it is on the SC2 ladder. SC2 players start the pressure/harassment earlier and harder, while BW players tend to macro up a little first. As a general rule, of course. I've been bunker rushed on Python and seen 15 Nexus openings on Tal'Darim Altar, but the rule of thumb is that ICCUP is more passive and macro-y early game and SC2 does more early 1-base pressure before expanding.
On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
Forge FE can and does happen in SC2, but it's more common to get 3 warpgates and pump some sentries before doing some pressure and expanding. I'm speaking as a Zerg in both games, but going Forge FE on most maps allows the Zerg to take a quick third, which can be more of a problem in SC2 than in BW for reasons that have to do with timings that I won't get into (short version: SC2 Zerg can have 70 drones way way faster if left unmolested than BW Zerg).
There was a game where Nestea was playing...I think Bomber on Tal'Darim Altar. Bomber was super-passive for the first fifteen minutes, so Nestea got 6 mining bases, 110 drones, and was building spine crawlers 15 at time by the timing Bomber took his third. This is a situation most non-Zerg SC2 players try to avoid.
Edit: Also, BW bnet is all custom and NR15 games. I assume you mean ICCUP.
On June 18 2011 21:03 Navane wrote: There is no AMM, so be prepared to get stomped 100 games before you get your first win.
Literally, I'm 0-86.
jesus watch some replays and copy the Bo some times vs PC or whatever... I went 10-16 when I started playing ICCup
With what kind of cheese? I guess it's possible with Protoss because you don't have to micro, but even then it takes a lot of practice macroing up the build order, unless you're doing abusive stuff like 2 Gate openings. I still don't understand why 2 gate is the norm in iccup PvT, when it's never used in pro games. People look too much in the short term.
because they're most likely 13years old and thinking long term has never even enter their minds? :b
I'll give a quick explanation of each matchup in a standard game:
TvZ - My fave since a lot of shit dies and there will be blood everywhere. For terrans, it used to be mainly bio with marine/medic/science vessels. Now many terrans are opening/transitioning to mech (tanks/vultures/goliaths) and it is close to standard now. For zergs, the typical game goes: FE, muta harass (very specific technique to do this), lurkers, hive, get defilers, then go all out macro, maybe transition to ultras. Against mech, you'll also need hydras.
TvP - Big macro war with both races trying to get a larger army than the other through harassing and map control. Terrans always go mech (bio just melts to storm). Protoss gets a large gateway army, and techs to storms/arbiters/carriers.
PvZ - Protoss forge FEs and gets a few quick corsairs to scout, then goes for +1 Speedlot push to try and deal damage. Zerg tries to get a spire and a 3rd up quickly and successfully defend from the corsairs and speedlots using sim citied sunkens/hydras/lurkers/mutas/scourge. Macro game ensues with a gateway/templar/reaver/corsair army vs ling/hydra/lurker/muta/scourge army.
TvT - usually very long games. Tanks + vultures, then tanks + battlecruisers/wraiths. Fight for map control/positioning.
ZvZ - usually very short games. 3 BOs (9pool, overpool, 12hatch) which are like rock paper scissors, but not completely. Speedlings transitioning to mutas. Very low econ.
PvP - an interesting mirror matchup. Large micro battles with storms and reavers usually deciding the battles.
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy.
It's greedy compared to a 4 warpgate rush, or even a 3gate expo. Forge FE is viable in both games, but it's MUCH more common on ICCUP than it is on the SC2 ladder. SC2 players start the pressure/harassment earlier and harder, while BW players tend to macro up a little first. As a general rule, of course. I've been bunker rushed on Python and seen 15 Nexus openings on Tal'Darim Altar, but the rule of thumb is that ICCUP is more passive and macro-y early game and SC2 does more early 1-base pressure before expanding.
On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
Forge FE can and does happen in SC2, but it's more common to get 3 warpgates and pump some sentries before doing some pressure and expanding. I'm speaking as a Zerg in both games, but going Forge FE on most maps allows the Zerg to take a quick third, which can be more of a problem in SC2 than in BW for reasons that have to do with timings that I won't get into (short version: SC2 Zerg can have 70 drones way way faster if left unmolested than BW Zerg).
There was a game where Nestea was playing...I think Bomber on Tal'Darim Altar. Bomber was super-passive for the first fifteen minutes, so Nestea got 6 mining bases, 110 drones, and was building spine crawlers 15 at time by the timing Bomber took his third. This is a situation most non-Zerg SC2 players try to avoid.
Edit: Also, BW bnet is all custom and NR15 games. I assume you mean ICCUP.
Well, Thats a unexpected reply.
I was not comparing SC2 to BW in any way. Bnet =/= SC2. In US west people still play Melee alot specially koreans
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy.
It's greedy compared to a 4 warpgate rush, or even a 3gate expo. Forge FE is viable in both games, but it's MUCH more common on ICCUP than it is on the SC2 ladder. SC2 players start the pressure/harassment earlier and harder, while BW players tend to macro up a little first. As a general rule, of course. I've been bunker rushed on Python and seen 15 Nexus openings on Tal'Darim Altar, but the rule of thumb is that ICCUP is more passive and macro-y early game and SC2 does more early 1-base pressure before expanding.
On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
Forge FE can and does happen in SC2, but it's more common to get 3 warpgates and pump some sentries before doing some pressure and expanding. I'm speaking as a Zerg in both games, but going Forge FE on most maps allows the Zerg to take a quick third, which can be more of a problem in SC2 than in BW for reasons that have to do with timings that I won't get into (short version: SC2 Zerg can have 70 drones way way faster if left unmolested than BW Zerg).
There was a game where Nestea was playing...I think Bomber on Tal'Darim Altar. Bomber was super-passive for the first fifteen minutes, so Nestea got 6 mining bases, 110 drones, and was building spine crawlers 15 at time by the timing Bomber took his third. This is a situation most non-Zerg SC2 players try to avoid.
Edit: Also, BW bnet is all custom and NR15 games. I assume you mean ICCUP.
Comparing different games is pretty pointless for this case, what is considered greedy in SC2 is not greedy in BW. Forge FE is standard in PvZ, 12 Nexus is greedy (gain economical lead but dies to 9pool, overpool, etc.). Another example is 1 rax FE is standard, 14cc is greedy.
Also if you haven't noticed this is the BW forums, what was posted does not have much to do with what the OP asked about. If one wishes to understand SC2 better there is a whole section of teamliquid dedicated to it. Thanks.
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy.
It's greedy compared to a 4 warpgate rush, or even a 3gate expo. Forge FE is viable in both games, but it's MUCH more common on ICCUP than it is on the SC2 ladder. SC2 players start the pressure/harassment earlier and harder, while BW players tend to macro up a little first. As a general rule, of course. I've been bunker rushed on Python and seen 15 Nexus openings on Tal'Darim Altar, but the rule of thumb is that ICCUP is more passive and macro-y early game and SC2 does more early 1-base pressure before expanding.
On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
Forge FE can and does happen in SC2, but it's more common to get 3 warpgates and pump some sentries before doing some pressure and expanding. I'm speaking as a Zerg in both games, but going Forge FE on most maps allows the Zerg to take a quick third, which can be more of a problem in SC2 than in BW for reasons that have to do with timings that I won't get into (short version: SC2 Zerg can have 70 drones way way faster if left unmolested than BW Zerg).
There was a game where Nestea was playing...I think Bomber on Tal'Darim Altar. Bomber was super-passive for the first fifteen minutes, so Nestea got 6 mining bases, 110 drones, and was building spine crawlers 15 at time by the timing Bomber took his third. This is a situation most non-Zerg SC2 players try to avoid.
Edit: Also, BW bnet is all custom and NR15 games. I assume you mean ICCUP.
Well, Thats a unexpected reply.
I was not comparing SC2 to BW in any way. Bnet =/= SC2. In US west people still play Melee alot specially koreans
Well, the threads about highlighting the differences. I knew what you meant, but I decided to elaborate on my point. ICCUP plays macro, which may surprise and SC2 player used to get attacked early every game on the ladder. I just tend to write essays when I should be writing posts
I don't play on bnet that often, but last time I went it was all customs. But I went to US East, and maybe it was just that day.
Hi im a sc2 player too (1plat)! im looking to get good at sc bw too just started playing brood war like 5 days ago if u want we can be practice partners download ICCUP u can find more competitive games there i have watched a lot of pro games so i kinda have an idea of what i have to do PM if u want to practice
On June 21 2011 09:00 Ribbon wrote: 1. ICCUP is a lot greedier than bnet. Playing PvZ will see the protoss open forge FE like 99% of the time.
Ummm, forge FE is standard not greedy.
It's greedy compared to a 4 warpgate rush, or even a 3gate expo. Forge FE is viable in both games, but it's MUCH more common on ICCUP than it is on the SC2 ladder. SC2 players start the pressure/harassment earlier and harder, while BW players tend to macro up a little first. As a general rule, of course. I've been bunker rushed on Python and seen 15 Nexus openings on Tal'Darim Altar, but the rule of thumb is that ICCUP is more passive and macro-y early game and SC2 does more early 1-base pressure before expanding.
On bnet they mostly play on python where 2 gating and 1 gate tech is okay but I don't think 1 base play works vs zerg on big maps like Fighting Spirit. Unless your opponent is really bad he will just die to it and call you noob.
Forge FE can and does happen in SC2, but it's more common to get 3 warpgates and pump some sentries before doing some pressure and expanding. I'm speaking as a Zerg in both games, but going Forge FE on most maps allows the Zerg to take a quick third, which can be more of a problem in SC2 than in BW for reasons that have to do with timings that I won't get into (short version: SC2 Zerg can have 70 drones way way faster if left unmolested than BW Zerg).
There was a game where Nestea was playing...I think Bomber on Tal'Darim Altar. Bomber was super-passive for the first fifteen minutes, so Nestea got 6 mining bases, 110 drones, and was building spine crawlers 15 at time by the timing Bomber took his third. This is a situation most non-Zerg SC2 players try to avoid.
Edit: Also, BW bnet is all custom and NR15 games. I assume you mean ICCUP.
Well, Thats a unexpected reply.
I was not comparing SC2 to BW in any way. Bnet =/= SC2. In US west people still play Melee alot specially koreans
Well, the threads about highlighting the differences. I knew what you meant, but I decided to elaborate on my point. ICCUP plays macro, which may surprise and SC2 player used to get attacked early every game on the ladder. I just tend to write essays when I should be writing posts
I don't play on bnet that often, but last time I went it was all customs. But I went to US East, and maybe it was just that day.
US West is where most of the Melee games are played. US East is mostly Team games or UMS games.
There are also games on Asia. But I really recommend using wLauncher or Chaos with wDetector and make sure you have BWHF its just that people really likes hacking in bnet