EPT(and with feedback/maelstrom follow ups) (sometimes you can even just steal for example an archon "early" game and come out at an advantage)
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 438
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
(and with feedback/maelstrom follow ups) (sometimes you can even just steal for example an archon "early" game and come out at an advantage) | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On December 27 2019 15:53 Jealous wrote: I still think that the DA MC rush on Destination can be modernized and implemented when you /know/ your opponent is going to go Reaver first. The swift turn-around is simply brutal. I want to believe. Thats a pretty cool idea, but why specifically destination? You could do a dt expand build on quite alot of maps, which could transition into a dark archon. Research mind control and you hace feedback for storm drop defense and MC on the first reaver for a timing when you should have more a stronger army then them because they just lost their reaver, maybe. Kinda janky sounding but it would be cool as hell to do in a real game. Considering FA to feedback high templar is already somewhat common in pvp, mind control on the shuttles actually seems pretty reasonable. Would have to look at all the timings and stuff though. Biggest problem i see is that its really gonna be hard against 4 gate dragoon, since your probe will die to the first dragoon that pops you probably dont see the robo finish, so a quick cancel (may not even get that far) into a goon bust would murder this build. Or y'know, just going for observer and seeing the DA  . Dying to meta builds isnt exactly gonna make it great, but if you somehow have a hard read on a reaver builds and also happen to be doing dt expand, maybe. I actually think the better and more consistent use would be later in the game to MC high templar drops. It easier to use on defense since you can click the shuttle anywhere, and can net you some high templar. You could use it vs harass or in the fight so it could potentially have some pretty strong value. | ||
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Jealous
10365 Posts
On December 30 2019 17:06 Steeles21600 wrote: Thats a pretty cool idea, but why specifically destination? You could do a dt expand build on quite alot of maps, which could transition into a dark archon. Research mind control and you hace feedback for storm drop defense and MC on the first reaver for a timing when you should have more a stronger army then them because they just lost their reaver, maybe. Kinda janky sounding but it would be cool as hell to do in a real game. Considering FA to feedback high templar is already somewhat common in pvp, mind control on the shuttles actually seems pretty reasonable. Would have to look at all the timings and stuff though. Biggest problem i see is that its really gonna be hard against 4 gate dragoon, since your probe will die to the first dragoon that pops you probably dont see the robo finish, so a quick cancel (may not even get that far) into a goon bust would murder this build. Or y'know, just going for observer and seeing the DA . Dying to meta builds isnt exactly gonna make it great, but if you somehow have a hard read on a reaver builds and also happen to be doing dt expand, maybe. I actually think the better and more consistent use would be later in the game to MC high templar drops. It easier to use on defense since you can click the shuttle anywhere, and can net you some high templar. You could use it vs harass or in the fight so it could potentially have some pretty strong value.IIRC It was the map and meta at the time that made it viable. I'm talking about this specific situation. It's not my idea or anything, it was something that people actually did (not progamers though - or at least I don't recall a specific game). You can't open DT expand because then your MC would be too late. You had to go gas first and use your first two DT to make DA so that you would have MC and energy in time for the earliest possible Reaver timing. It would arrive in your base right around the time that you got 150 energy. Then you would just turn around and fly back to their base instead. All of the things you mentioned are just applications of DA, which is fine of course, and many have already been utilized to some extent (as you mentioned). I was speaking specifically about DA MC rush. Ultimately, it's always fun to theorycraft about weird unit choices/timings, but even though I jokingly say "I want to believe" and stuff like that, I tend to actually believe that pros have tried just about everything under the sun over the past 20+ years, so if something isn't being done and we think it might work, it's most likely because it doesn't work and we suck. PS: EDIT: Against 4 Gate Dragoon you free win because you have DT. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
I dont think its impossible to come up with new stuff, far from it. Its just really really hard, so the 99% of players arent gonna come up with anything major. I think there are prolly lots of tiny things that could be found or worked out by people though,like optimizations. I was assuming a very fast if not instant MC research on dt expand but like i said id need to check the timing. I didnt think it would have been good at all anyway, but MCing lategame shuttle may actually be kinda decent in some situations. But yeah at end of day we play starcraft to have fun, and weird ideas and builds like this are fun even if they prolly arent the best. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3546 Posts
Quick sort of theorycraft pvp question. If I open zealot core zealot off 1gate, is it still possible to go to 3gate robo (obs) the way it is described in liquipedia? (With probe cut to place down the 2 extra gates and robo around 29 supply) or would the 2 zealots delay tech too much so that it d be better to do 2nd gate robo 3rd gate instead? Or is it not an optimal build in general? (Might be outdated) I ve been facing a lot more 2gate play lately and going with a single zealot (or none, for greedy play) has led me to some quick losses while i ve also died to dts after too many early zealots on my side. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1776 Posts
On January 03 2020 03:30 WGT-Baal wrote: Hi folks and happy new Year. Quick sort of theorycraft pvp question. If I open zealot core zealot off 1gate, is it still possible to go to 3gate robo (obs) the way it is described in liquipedia? (With probe cut to place down the 2 extra gates and robo around 29 supply) or would the 2 zealots delay tech too much so that it d be better to do 2nd gate robo 3rd gate instead? Or is it not an optimal build in general? (Might be outdated) I ve been facing a lot more 2gate play lately and going with a single zealot (or none, for greedy play) has led me to some quick losses while i ve also died to dts after too many early zealots on my side. VS 2 gate remove 1-2 probes from the gas just need enough gas for goons and range, add second gate asap and pump goons from 2 gates keep pushing him and expand then follow with either a robo or citadel. 3 Gate robo if i remember correctly starts with zeal core zeal you add the robo at 29-30 then +2 gates then a pylon. Its a build designed for safe play especially against DT so dont delay robo. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
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pebble444
Italy2503 Posts
On January 04 2020 13:15 Steeles21600 wrote: Been watching alot of ZvT vods and was a bit confused on the switch to a 2 hatch style of play. What has cause this meta switch away fron 3 hatch even vs normal bio play? Ne builds creating mindgames or just advancement of muta micro? Terrans have become increasingly good at establishing early map presence with m and m, and also factory or starports builds, all of which gives terrans an early map presence. Two hatch forces terran to play more defensively and invest earlier in base defences, while allowing a bigger map presence at an ealier stage of the mid game | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 06 2020 16:56 pebble444 wrote: Terrans have become increasingly good at establishing early map presence with m and m, and also factory or starports builds, all of which gives terrans an early map presence. Two hatch forces terran to play more defensively and invest earlier in base defences, while allowing a bigger map presence at an ealier stage of the mid game I would like to add that it may have grown in popularity because 2h muta is good against +1 5 rax (since the terran will have less to defend with when the mutas arrive as compared to 2 rax or mech builds). | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
On January 08 2020 01:32 Anc13nt wrote: I would like to add that it may have grown in popularity because 2h muta is good against +1 5 rax (since the terran will have less to defend with when the mutas arrive as compared to 2 rax or mech builds). No Terran goes +1 5 rax vs 2h play (except that one game in KSL). It only makes sense to say that Zergs are afraid of +1 5 rax, if they go 3h, so they opt for 2h instead. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 08 2020 03:59 Cryoc wrote: No Terran goes +1 5 rax vs 2h play (except that one game in KSL). It only makes sense to say that Zergs are afraid of +1 5 rax, if they go 3h, so they opt for 2h instead. yeah that is a better way to put it for sure. I don't remember last time I saw a game with +1 5 rax vs 2 hatch come to think of it. | ||
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ggsimida
1156 Posts
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On January 08 2020 01:32 Anc13nt wrote: I would like to add that it may have grown in popularity because 2h muta is good against +1 5 rax (since the terran will have less to defend with when the mutas arrive as compared to 2 rax or mech builds). Makes sense. I assumed it had something to do with the rise of these goliath builds off mech openings. I figured that also made 1-1-1 more powerful since its harder to tell what terran is doing. Flash said 1-1-1 died because of ling all ins, but it would be hard to go for ling all in because if he went goliath build he would have more unit and could hold yeah? | ||
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Kertorak
125 Posts
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8921 Posts
positioning your medics and your marines will then involve a combination of hotkeys and manual selection + move, because hotkeys alone wont make your units form a nice shape. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On January 16 2020 00:59 evilfatsh1t wrote: bit of both. you should always have a set of hotkeys that separates medics from your combat units. you can have 1 hotkey that groups them for ease of movement if you need, but the more important thing is having separate hotkeys so you can stim instantly. positioning your medics and your marines will then involve a combination of hotkeys and manual selection + move, because hotkeys alone wont make your units form a nice shape. Ah, i hasnt thought about that. Makes sense. Hopefully i could use this to get a better shape when i engage lings. Ill try to have them in a seperate hotkey. Im kinda having to learn marine micro and bio cause i was so overworried about tvp from all the whining i neglected the other two matchups. Also what maps should i ban as terran this season? Currently banning white out, destination and gladiator. | ||
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Jealous
10365 Posts
On January 16 2020 01:22 Steeles21600 wrote: Ah, i hasnt thought about that. Makes sense. Hopefully i could use this to get a better shape when i engage lings. Ill try to have them in a seperate hotkey. Im kinda having to learn marine micro and bio cause i was so overworried about tvp from all the whining i neglected the other two matchups. Also what maps should i ban as terran this season? Currently banning white out, destination and gladiator. Destination is a great map for Terran. | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
On January 16 2020 01:22 Steeles21600 wrote: Ah, i hasnt thought about that. Makes sense. Hopefully i could use this to get a better shape when i engage lings. Ill try to have them in a seperate hotkey. Im kinda having to learn marine micro and bio cause i was so overworried about tvp from all the whining i neglected the other two matchups. Also what maps should i ban as terran this season? Currently banning white out, destination and gladiator. I like your bans (to help terran), but overall I dislike the bans system as it will cap your development too. | ||
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