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On December 06 2019 15:56 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2019 13:15 TT1 wrote:On December 06 2019 12:08 zaMNal wrote:
As zerg, what are the safest "counter-builds" openings against 9/9 double-gate (at protoss main and/or at center of a map)? assuming you drone scouted midd center gates If you opened overpool: Counter p's center gate (kill pylon then deny probes from remaking it) or main with as many lings you can get out before P walls your ramp with 3 zeals. Cancel expo and make an inbase hatch + sunk, get speed. Your goal is to sneak out as many lings as you can and have them constantly move between P's center pylon and main, that way you can isolate zealots and pick them off easily. If you opened 12hatch: Let hatch finish, produce lings out of it and counter with all your lings until your ramp is blocked. Once again, try to snipe the center pylon/pick off stray zealots, then hit main. Do damage whenever you have numbers over P's zealots. Don't force fights, abuse P's lack of mobility and wait for him to make a mistake. Try to be annoying with your ling movement. This response taxes P's multitask a lot, it's very easy for them to miss-micro. You don't necessarily need to do game ending damage to their worker count, taking out the center pylon and denying a probe from remaking it is massive damage. This weakens the amount of zeals they rally to your ramp which makes it easier for you to bust out. Eventually your ling count will be high enough to bust your ramp and hit P's main. Take nat from there, if you can't kill him with lings (P has cannons in main) just drone up and go into hydras. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I feel like center Gate is really weak against 1 Hatch speed? So, if the Gates are center, then following a standard Overpool build with speed is a good move for Zerg? IDK what is standard now but I always cross-scout with Drone vs. P in order to check center for Gates on maps like FS.
When going overpool, Z will usually make their expo before scouting the center gates. They drone to 11 then send 2 workers out at the same time, 1 to expo and 1 to scout. Once you scout the gates you instantly make a gas tho, run lings out and cancel nat/remake hatch in main.
Btw, here's an example of a center 2g vs 12h scenario, ZerO loses the game but you get an idea of how you're supposed to react (via his ling movement).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/511248700?t=43m03s
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Norway28650 Posts
I think z should remake hatch in a hidden base. Becomes impossible for p to put on aggression there while defending mid pylon and blocking your choke.
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How does one do well on ladder with zerg? I had this same problem last season after they implemented match making changes but I wanted to bring it up because it has frustrated me for a while and because recently, my zerg has gotten to the point where I actually "reached" D level. I thought zerg was my best race but I feel like the quality of my play is greatly diminished by lag. I can only assume why I am doing pretty bad. Maybe I am out of practice because I don't play the game as much as I did in the summer but I think, more importantly, it feels a lot harder to micro units like mutas/hydras. As a result, my zerg does a lot worse on ladder than even my protoss even though it used to be a lot better than my protoss. I don't want to switch my main to protoss because of this.
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are there lots of smurfs or am i just wildly inconsistent? i feel like one game i'll stomp and the next game i'll get absolutely rolled...
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On December 10 2019 21:23 TheGloob wrote:
are there lots of smurfs or am i just wildly inconsistent? i feel like one game i'll stomp and the next game i'll get absolutely rolled...
More koreans too. I feel the same as you but i dont think there are that many smurfs. Season is still fairly new so mmr aren't fully set yet. Some 1600guys are terrible while i got absolutely wrecked by a 1350 kr guy. Also under mid C/low b rank, ebeeybody has weaknesses so your particular strength might match your opponent s weakness and you stomp him (a particular build/timing for example) while sometimes it s the other way around. Match up too can affect that. GL!
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On December 12 2019 00:17 WGT-Baal wrote:
More koreans too. I feel the same as you but i dont think there are that many smurfs. Season is still fairly new so mmr aren't fully set yet. Some 1600guys are terrible while i got absolutely wrecked by a 1350 kr guy. Also under mid C/low b rank, ebeeybody has weaknesses so your particular strength might match your opponent s weakness and you stomp him (a particular build/timing for example) while sometimes it s the other way around. Match up too can affect that. GL!
yeah i think you're right about the strengths/weaknesses thing (i.e. i'm just bad). also i'm playing in korea so the difference between regions probably has a bit to do with it too.
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A few quick questions.
-Any TvP tips for dealing with high templar storm? techniques for spreading tanks more effeciently or anything like that? things like dt and recall im learning but im a bit lost on the method for this one other then extreme tank spreading.
- In TvT i often lose to doom drops with 5+ dropships around the 2-3 base point in the game. I have tried putting up turrent and goliaths but if i make too few it doesnt quite kill the drop and if i make too many i have a buncha goliaths taking up my gas and supply and lose map control. Advice?
Edit: Played alot today and another more general question. Is 2 fac a good build to do as a noob terran to get down the basics or should i do some other timing?
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for storms you have 3 options. if you have goliaths with range upgrades you can try to snipe the shuttle. if you miss your chance to do that then the next thing you can do is manually snipe the hts as soon as they drop with a couple of tanks. the least reliable method imo is to emp them with vessels. if you fail at all 3 then there really isnt much alternative. keep in mind that any time you choose to fight you should be engaging under the assumption that youll get hit with everything they have, rather than picking an engagement that you can only win by being a god and preventing things such as big storms.
also with tvt if youre losing regularly to doom drops then the issue with your game isnt doom drops themselves. the problems are rooted deeper in your fundamentals (either mechanics or your understanding of the matchup).
tvt is all about army positioning and making good small trades. if the opponent has enough units to drop 5 dropships worth of units on you then you should also have that many units doing something on the map. they could be in dropships or they might be in a tank line that should be pushing against the enemy's because you have a superior number.
if youre allowing the opponent to hold all their tank lines and still manage to get free drops on you then it means youre not proactive enough with your units or you arent trading units well enough and therefore you are consistently playing with less supply than your opponent.
edit: personally i think all beginners should stay away from timing builds and all-ins and focus on eco builds. you will lose a shit ton of games but if your aim is to genuinely improve your fundamentals then playing eco builds will improve that better.
if you insist on playing timing builds then fd is better than 2fac, and there are other builds like 5 fac but you wont execute the builds well if you dont have the basics down anyway
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On December 19 2019 14:25 evilfatsh1t wrote:
for storms you have 3 options. if you have goliaths with range upgrades you can try to snipe the shuttle. if you miss your chance to do that then the next thing you can do is manually snipe the hts as soon as they drop with a couple of tanks. the least reliable method imo is to emp them with vessels. if you fail at all 3 then there really isnt much alternative. keep in mind that any time you choose to fight you should be engaging under the assumption that youll get hit with everything they have, rather than picking an engagement that you can only win by being a god and preventing things such as big storms.
also with tvt if youre losing regularly to doom drops then the issue with your game isnt doom drops themselves. the problems are rooted deeper in your fundamentals (either mechanics or your understanding of the matchup).
tvt is all about army positioning and making good small trades. if the opponent has enough units to drop 5 dropships worth of units on you then you should also have that many units doing something on the map. they could be in dropships or they might be in a tank line that should be pushing against the enemy's because you have a superior number.
if youre allowing the opponent to hold all their tank lines and still manage to get free drops on you then it means youre not proactive enough with your units or you arent trading units well enough and therefore you are consistently playing with less supply than your opponent.
edit: personally i think all beginners should stay away from timing builds and all-ins and focus on eco builds. you will lose a shit ton of games but if your aim is to genuinely improve your fundamentals then playing eco builds will improve that better.
if you insist on playing timing builds then fd is better than 2fac, and there are other builds like 5 fac but you wont execute the builds well if you dont have the basics down anyway
That all makes sense. Using target fire on the hts is a great point though, didnt think of that.
Im very bad at tvt, because it doesnt really have such set in stone timings like the other terran matches. The timings are quite easy to understand by comparison. Ill need to do more study for that matchup. Not the biggest fan on TvT, but its at least alot more interesting then ZvZ.
I have been studying my replays and finding alot of issues being economical ones, not putting my money in the right places. Ill expand when i need more production or something like that, and making bad decisions. As for builds, i usually just do that goliath build in tvz because its fairly easy and forgiving and easy to turtle with till your timing presents itself. TvT i got no clue and tvp i assumed double armory was above my level for now so i tried to play aggro timing styles. I read to do 5 fac but it seems like protoss has to do a specific expand timing for that to work so not sure.
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On December 18 2019 23:11 Steeles21600 wrote:
A few quick questions.
-Any TvP tips for dealing with high templar storm? techniques for spreading tanks more effeciently or anything like that? things like dt and recall im learning but im a bit lost on the method for this one other then extreme tank spreading.
- In TvT i often lose to doom drops with 5+ dropships around the 2-3 base point in the game. I have tried putting up turrent and goliaths but if i make too few it doesnt quite kill the drop and if i make too many i have a buncha goliaths taking up my gas and supply and lose map control. Advice?
Edit: Played alot today and another more general question. Is 2 fac a good build to do as a noob terran to get down the basics or should i do some other timing?
my terran is pretty trash but I would like to add that in my experience, 2 fac is pretty hard to pull of in TvT at low level.
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On December 18 2019 23:11 Steeles21600 wrote:
A few quick questions.
-Any TvP tips for dealing with high templar storm? techniques for spreading tanks more effeciently or anything like that? things like dt and recall im learning but im a bit lost on the method for this one other then extreme tank spreading.
- In TvT i often lose to doom drops with 5+ dropships around the 2-3 base point in the game. I have tried putting up turrent and goliaths but if i make too few it doesnt quite kill the drop and if i make too many i have a buncha goliaths taking up my gas and supply and lose map control. Advice?
Edit: Played alot today and another more general question. Is 2 fac a good build to do as a noob terran to get down the basics or should i do some other timing?
TvT in mid game is all about scanning what your opponent is doing. Also, the more open the map with more paths, the more likely drop play is. This is because if a map can be locked with relatively few units, it's easier to keep some army in your base / rally to defend vs drops.
If you see your opponen making dropships, in my opinion the best countr is to either make counter dropships or wraiths. Wraiths are not to good though if the map is very open, as you army will be weaker in a direct engagement unless you have a strong position with tanks.
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On December 20 2019 20:08 kogeT wrote:
TvT in mid game is all about scanning what your opponent is doing. Also, the more open the map with more paths, the more likely drop play is. This is because if a map can be locked with relatively few units, it's easier to keep some army in your base / rally to defend vs drops.
If you see your opponen making dropships, in my opinion the best countr is to either make counter dropships or wraiths. Wraiths are not to good though if the map is very open, as you army will be weaker in a direct engagement unless you have a strong position with tanks.
That seems pretty complex, i think ill play more and study replays inbetween, asking questions as they arise. But if you could, is there a good starting guide or resource to improve and play the matchup properly?
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I know this question would make you guys think “We need to see a replay” and that is true but bear with me a second.
So in PvT i have really good macro and Im good at taking the map. I will have 5 base vs terrans 3 usually while I have 20 gates in my main and 10-15 gates in the other main.
The problem however is when I spawn relatively close to the terran and he pushes out at maxed supply. Even with a couple good statis, he destroys my army and pushes my nat. Now I cant really engage him because my army is split into two from each mains gateway rallys.
Common sense would say “you have to trade on HIS side of the map so you have time to remax by the time hes at your front door” however I have a hard time doing this.
Does anyone have any advice? Its frustrating because I deeefinitely deserve to win these games but because he trades on my side of the map he is able to win. Recall is obviously great but sometimes I think stasis is better when holding off these 2/1 max pushes.
I dont want to really trade on his side of the map because my arbs dont quite have enough energy for stasis before he pushes out.
Advice? I see Bisu lose games in this exact same fashion.
User was banned for this post.
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Norway28650 Posts
Step one is dont think you deserve to win a game you lost! 🙂
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Step 2 could be uploading a replay or two.
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Step 3 is your name is an annagram of Hitler and I'm willing to bet you are fefil.
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On December 27 2019 05:21 Ej_ wrote:
Step 3 is your name is an annagram of Hitler and I'm willing to bet you are fefil.
Just double down all the way down.
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what do we think about maelstrom in 2020?
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Norway28650 Posts
im a huge fan. also of feedback. DA is a very solid support unit in pvz.
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I still think that the DA MC rush on Destination can be modernized and implemented when you /know/ your opponent is going to go Reaver first. The swift turn-around is simply brutal.
I want to believe.
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EPT
