EPTOn January 19 2020 08:43 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I'd go so far as to say that not doing that is one of the hardest parts of microing carriers
I'd go so far as to say that not doing that is one of the hardest parts of microing carriers
Just use patrol!
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 440
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Freakling
Germany1533 Posts
Just use patrol! | ||
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Tribune
Australia60 Posts
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On January 24 2020 04:06 Tribune wrote: why do zerg always undersaturate minerals? They tend to have more bases than terran or protoss so they spread the drones across the bases more evenly. They also have fewer drones in general to go around compared to scvs and probes but they compensate by mining more efficiently (since their bases are not very saturated). Also, zerg cuts spending on drones often to get out crucial tech (especially true in ZvT) to keep their bases alive and/or gain map control. Zerg mineral saturation starts to catch up with terran and protoss saturation in the late game (but even then, zerg bases are a lot less saturated). | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On January 24 2020 04:24 Anc13nt wrote: They tend to have more bases than terran or protoss so they spread the drones across the bases more evenly. They also have fewer drones in general to go around compared to scvs and probes but they compensate by mining more efficiently (since their bases are not very saturated). Also, zerg cuts spending on drones often to get out crucial tech (especially true in ZvT) to keep their bases alive and/or gain map control. Zerg mineral saturation starts to catch up with terran and protoss saturation in the late game (but even then, zerg bases are a lot less saturated). Also timings, much like how certain Terran timings require one to stop SCV production, except for Zerg it is even more pronounced because army and economy are produced from the same structure. You only need x Drones on Minerals and y on Gas to produce z amount of Hydralisks continuously from n Hatcheries, etc. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On January 27 2020 20:00 Steeles21600 wrote: Why are many players in TvP going for an early dropship, especially if they load a tank with it? Usually its after a fast expansion build, vulture bunker expabd more often then not. With such a low tank and fac count it would seem that it would lower your tank production and therefore map control alot, making it hard to get your third and delaying your push timing a whole lot. But if so many high level players are doing it then there must be a good reason. Because it harasses the Protoss would be the basic answer. Dragoons are awkward (particularly going up ramps), Observers are few in number around this time and unlikely to be very conveniently located unless the Dropship/Starport was scouted, Zealots are still slow at this time (if they are even out at all), and Protoss may have most of his forces out on the map clearing mines, denying a 3rd, or waiting outside the natural of Terran to catch Vultures going out to lay mines. In short, it has the potential to kill Probes (or at least force them to be pulled), distract Protoss and force them to cede some map control in key areas (allowing for an easier 3rd for Terran or to gain more map control via mines), do damage to the Protoss army it they scramble a defense and step on a mine/get hit with a few Siege Tank shots, etc. It's also an execution test - did you scout the Starport? Did you properly track the Dropship? How good is your multitask/anti-drop control? Did you overreact and withdraw too many of your forces from the map? If Terran feels confident in their own ability to multitask during this, it's a risk/reward scenario. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On January 27 2020 21:58 Jealous wrote: Because it harasses the Protoss would be the basic answer. Dragoons are awkward (particularly going up ramps), Observers are few in number around this time and unlikely to be very conveniently located unless the Dropship/Starport was scouted, Zealots are still slow at this time (if they are even out at all), and Protoss may have most of his forces out on the map clearing mines, denying a 3rd, or waiting outside the natural of Terran to catch Vultures going out to lay mines. In short, it has the potential to kill Probes (or at least force them to be pulled), distract Protoss and force them to cede some map control in key areas (allowing for an easier 3rd for Terran or to gain more map control via mines), do damage to the Protoss army it they scramble a defense and step on a mine/get hit with a few Siege Tank shots, etc. It's also an execution test - did you scout the Starport? Did you properly track the Dropship? How good is your multitask/anti-drop control? Did you overreact and withdraw too many of your forces from the map? If Terran feels confident in their own ability to multitask during this, it's a risk/reward scenario. Makes sense. Doesnt having the threat of a dropship also mean that protoss is more likely to keep units inside or near their base; which means if you denied the obs scout then you could also do something kinda greedy like taking a 3rd on location? Also you could make wraith if you scout the reaver. Im pretty sure thats a big element of this as well, since reaver is super common at high level. And you have vultures from the vulture expand so it kinda flows. It has alot or versatility now that i think about it. About how many probes would you need to kill for it to be worth?. Its like 250 gas into this and thats enough to double your tank count with another fac with shop, plus all the vultures you would have been making. Seems like you would need to kill quite alot to make it come out ahead, especially if they go for a very fast 3rd base. | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On January 27 2020 22:41 Steeles21600 wrote: Makes sense. Doesnt having the threat of a dropship also mean that protoss is more likely to keep units inside or near their base; which means if you denied the obs scout then you could also do something kinda greedy like taking a 3rd on location? Also you could make wraith if you scout the reaver. Im pretty sure thats a big element of this as well, since reaver is super common at high level. And you have vultures from the vulture expand so it kinda flows. It has alot or versatility now that i think about it. About how many probes would you need to kill for it to be worth?. Its like 250 gas into this and thats enough to double your tank count with another fac with shop, plus all the vultures you would have been making. Seems like you would need to kill quite alot to make it come out ahead, especially if they go for a very fast 3rd base. Good point about the Wraith! As for how many Probes, I think that is impossible to quantify, because you necessarily have to factor worker idle time, any other damage you do, etc. I imagine it is case-by-case basis. I'm not good enough to give a more concrete answer either  Maybe a stronger player has more insight. | ||
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Steeles21600
52 Posts
On January 27 2020 23:56 Jealous wrote: Good point about the Wraith! As for how many Probes, I think that is impossible to quantify, because you necessarily have to factor worker idle time, any other damage you do, etc. I imagine it is case-by-case basis. I'm not good enough to give a more concrete answer either Maybe a stronger player has more insight.was thinking about the situation of them expanding very fast and wondered if you could hit some sort of timing to punish that. Typically if protosses get a reaver you cant do an early timing to punish greed because of it, but with a wraith you could deny it and shuttle bombs. i was thinking this cause i was watching this vod of shinee and he went for the dropship and punished a protoss who tried to fast expand with a 2 base timing and crushed him. So thats something interestintg to think about. Edit: my bad, it was a 2 base arbiter build. Still weird choice but it worked out super well for him | ||
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MisterBoba
Russian Federation121 Posts
1) How do I respond to 6 hatch hydra compared 5 hatch hydra? The same or do I do anything different like delay my third or something? More templar is obvious but besides that? 2) When do I start adding goon and obs to pre-empt a lurker tech switch? Sometimes I have goon but Z never goes lurker and it's silly, and other times I have zeal/templar and he suddenly walks in with like 4-5 lurkers and gg. | ||
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MisterBoba
Russian Federation121 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
You'll need a faster robo and more and earlier gates. If zerg does a lurker switch then he can do it faster than off of a spire version, and overall if they have no spire robo play opens harrass options for you. Still need to be checking if they're remaking spire, and resuming sairs or getting a DA as necessary. 2)You kinda need goons eventually just to prevent hydras sniping your templars and running away taking little damage. Zealots can bodyblock but it is difficult to do that each time. General rule of thumb would be, off of a forge fe, something like 8 min robo(assuming they made a spire). Overall it is limited by gas. You want +1 ground, maybe +1 air, maybe some 5 sairs depending on the situation, some templars, storm, maybe zealot speed, etc...after that you get a robo once you can spare 200 gas. Next 150 would go into goon range, and pros usually start making goons after range is half way done or so. I've seen pros not build an observatory until they scout lurkers morphing but that requires constant scouting. Can be wrong about everything, feel free to correct me  | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On February 01 2020 11:43 MisterBoba wrote: 1) How do I respond to 6 hatch hydra compared 5 hatch hydra? The same or do I do anything different like delay my third or something? More templar is obvious but besides that? Really interesting question. I do not know the correct answer. But surelly it is not that 6 hat means no spire. Generally in 6vs5 hat you opponent is more willing to mass hidra and take fights, so 1 thing you can do is not allow him to trade units and take fights. In 5 hat your opponent will take a 4th base much faster (it is the 6th hatch). [B] 2) When do I start adding goon and obs to pre-empt a lurker tech switch? Sometimes I have goon but Z never goes lurker and it's silly, and other times I have zeal/templar and he suddenly walks in with like 4-5 lurkers and gg. When to make an obz is a little bit of a feeling thing. But generally you can make a robo that can be used for shuttle harass and then make the obzervatory when needed. Beeing out on the map helps, as you can spot the lurkers at his base and have time to adapt. Keep also in mind that in 6 hat lurkers are less common than in 5 hat play. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia936 Posts
So normally 6th hatch is a bit delayed after building a minimal amount of hydras, maybe even a sunken per base, then droning/getting that 6th hatch. In this situation, I have no idea what the best response is, but you can probably either power and try for a timing, or take a faster than usual 3rd. Zerg will have more hydra than usual, but it will kick in later. If they skip spire, they'll have more hydra than usual as early as usual, so keeping up sair production would make it really hard to have any sort of ground presence. | ||
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ajmbek
Italy460 Posts
On February 04 2020 00:55 Soulforged wrote: ^yes, of course there's versions that do 6 hatch with a spire. But generally those develop a bit differently, with zerg not being able to afford 6th hatchery and a spire and defend whatever initial pressure that protoss is throwing on them(generally around 7 min, whatever it is - DT/sairs, speedlots, etc). So normally 6th hatch is a bit delayed after building a minimal amount of hydras, maybe even a sunken per base, then droning/getting that 6th hatch. In this situation, I have no idea what the best response is, but you can probably either power and try for a timing, or take a faster than usual 3rd. Zerg will have more hydra than usual, but it will kick in later. If they skip spire, they'll have more hydra than usual as early as usual, so keeping up sair production would make it really hard to have any sort of ground presence. This is wrong. The old, complete, name of the BO is 3 hat spire 5 hat hidra. Witch was designed to fight the Bisu build. But nowdays the maiority of korean's pro make one more hat and this is considered the most standard ZvP BO. If you mean 6 hat with no spire you almost had to say that. This is for sure not considered standard and i doubt the question was to compare 2 completly different build orders. | ||
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Beta2k
Austria218 Posts
It just (still) doesn't make sense to me that it was abolished. | ||
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EldritchWang
2 Posts
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MisterBoba
Russian Federation121 Posts
It goes like this: 1. I send goons + obs forwards to pick off a few lurkers 2. He sends ling in 3. I have to kite back with goons 4. I send zealots forward as they stumble inbetween my goons and I lose units. 5. I say "fuck it" and attack with my whole army 6. I lose my maxed army to like 140 supply Z. What do I do wrong? I use reavers to deal with the forward lings yes. Maybe I should just use reavers for killing the lurkers and just let my goons and zealots chill behind them? Seriously I am so tilt now. I need lots of archons but I feel like they melt so fast to lurkers. | ||
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Highgamer
1451 Posts
On February 07 2020 08:23 EldritchWang wrote: I’m a new player looking to get better at the game. Some guides say to start by practicing basic macro, some are saying that memorising build orders is the way to go while some are suggesting that I should just brute force the ICCUP ladder to about D grade before worrying about anything else. Which is correct or if none of them are what should I do to get started? Hey, very welcome. You will need both to be a good player: solid (progamer-approved) build-orders and good macro-mechanics to execute those builds. Of course you can also just hit the ladder for a reality-check or for fun, but to become a somewhat solid player (maybe C-rank and above) you'll need a good foundation. If you invest some serious time to lay that foundation now, you won't have to unlearn bad habits like inefficient builds/macro later on. Generally you're well advised to pick one build-order per matchup for a start to reduce complexity and to practice the shit out of those until you can hit all the markers in the description and all the timings that the build contains. As you practice the build-order, you should work on your macro-mechanics: constant worker production (unless you're zerg), build everything with shortcuts, use of F-keys, hotkey certain buildings, etc. As soon as doing just the build-order works out better and better, then you can start to do stuff with your units in the sparetime that you create: scouting, tactical positioning, general army-control, executing the attack that the build leads to, etc. In addition to those things you should keep watching pro- or good players' streams or replays, read guides and strategy-articles, talk to people better than you to soak up as much knowledge as possible about your current build-order (and the game-plan connected to it) and the game in general. Use that knowledge to identify your current most apparent problems/weaknesses and work on those first. You have to find your own good relation of such deliberate practice (in the singleplayer or with practice-partners) and ladder-play. Maybe ICCUP is still a good place to play but SC:Remastered offers you auto-matchmaking and most people hang out there by now. Don't forget to have fun with the game, to make it fun for you. | ||
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Jealous
10313 Posts
On February 08 2020 06:55 MisterBoba wrote: Someone for love of almighty GOD tell me how I should engage zergling lurker as P? I am not even talking about simcity, I mean when he was like 12 lurkers burrowed, spread out, and a shitload of cracklings. It goes like this: 1. I send goons + obs forwards to pick off a few lurkers 2. He sends ling in 3. I have to kite back with goons 4. I send zealots forward as they stumble inbetween my goons and I lose units. 5. I say "fuck it" and attack with my whole army 6. I lose my maxed army to like 140 supply Z. What do I do wrong? I use reavers to deal with the forward lings yes. Maybe I should just use reavers for killing the lurkers and just let my goons and zealots chill behind them? Seriously I am so tilt now. I need lots of archons but I feel like they melt so fast to lurkers. Macro and storm. | ||
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