EPTbut if i kill his interceptors, he can just keep making them. they're so cheap. i always felt like it was very ineffective. are killing them worth it? when those little buggers are flying everywhere, it almost seems trivial to attack them.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 330
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
but if i kill his interceptors, he can just keep making them. they're so cheap. i always felt like it was very ineffective. are killing them worth it? when those little buggers are flying everywhere, it almost seems trivial to attack them. | ||
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Ty2
United States1434 Posts
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On July 29 2017 15:40 Golgotha wrote: thanks Ty2. I did not know I needed mass turrets and yeah expanding everywhere is a good idea. but if i kill his interceptors, he can just keep making them. they're so cheap. i always felt like it was very ineffective. are killing them worth it? when those little buggers are flying everywhere, it almost seems trivial to attack them. Underestimating how expensive it is for P to reproduce interceptors cost me many games vs carriers. Let's say he has 10 carriers full of interceptors, then rebuilding them all costs 2000. Doesn't sound too much in the lategame? Well 20 goliaths with +2 attack SHRED all his interceptors in seconds, it will literally take all his money to rebuild the interceptors if he has to do so quickly. It's equal to killing 20 Zealots ! What tricks you is that normally Protoss has the bank to rebuild them once, maybe twice, but then he's broke. If the situation seems to be in your favor (you have a bigger army, he has only 1-2 mining bases), then you really have to keep on keeping on and not be impressed by his interceptors popping up again. He has only 1-2 shots in the barrel and with this in mind you play differently. What Ty2 wrote about seizing his production is right, but you don't have to kill all his bases asap. If you keep him from having additional bases in the long run and play it calm, you win. Splitting your army up in all directions trying to kill everything at once can create a vicious circle of small losses leading to you losing your initial gradual advantage. Another thing that wasn't mentioned: Much more scary than the carriers alone is the combination of carrier-"harrass" and mid-sized goon/zealot/templar armies running around the map, going for your expansions, creating little skirmishes in which Protoss' sturdy units have an advantage if Terran is busy and cannot micro his stuff right. If you face such a Protoss, as important as caring for the carriers is, it's also important to constantly mine the paths to your expansions and to have a mobile force ready to defend them. Imo it just takes a lot more multitasking AT FIRST to fight carrier-play than to execute it, but once you learn the above mentioned rules of thumb, at least you generally see where you went wrong if you lose. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
You can either move forward to snipe the carriers, they go down really fast if focussed, eliminating all the interceptors at once, but dangerous if there is ground-army for Protoss or if he microes well. The alternative is to spam a-move on the ground with your goliaths, I think Flash does this as well. This way, the goliaths acquire a new target (interceptor) everytime you spam a-move, thus they don't bug out or idle around. Enough goliaths kill clouds of interceptors very quickly this way and Protoss will retreat. | ||
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On July 29 2017 23:11 Highgamer wrote: Maybe someone should have asked how you engage the carriers. You can either move forward to snipe the carriers, they go down really fast if focussed, eliminating all the interceptors at once, but dangerous if there is ground-army for Protoss or if he microes well. The alternative is to spam a-move on the ground with your goliaths, I think Flash does this as well. This way, the goliaths acquire a new target (interceptor) everytime you spam a-move, thus they don't bug out or idle around. Enough goliaths kill clouds of interceptors very quickly this way and Protoss will retreat. I think that hold position accomplishes the same task and is much easier to do in a situation where there are a hundred tiny Interceptors flying around. One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is EMP - when you're in those situations that you might be able to take potshots at the Carriers, one EMP can do a ton of work and potentially force a retreat. Another thing to consider when you are killing Interceptors is that they take a deceptively long time to build. If you've killed quite a few but your Goliath count has dwindled, don't be the first to retreat unless his Interceptor cloud is still massive - he is likely to be down to having 5 Interceptors queued at some of his Carriers and might not be aware of how soon his Carriers will be running on fumes. | ||
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Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On July 30 2017 00:50 Alpha-NP- wrote: Anyone have advice of when to get Observer speed in ZvP? And is it a must-have to for breaking Lurker contains? I prefer to get Observer Range in PvZ when dealing with a Lurker contain, but often by that time it is already a really desperate situation for me because I would only get it if my first few bust/Obs attempts got denied/sniped - gas is really precious at this juncture as you are mostly producing Obs/Dragoon/Templar, so getting any extraneous upgrades is not recommended. In general, Lurker contains should be avoided at all costs IMO - being active on the map, not taking dumb fights or overcommiting. Prevention is your best solution. Anyway, I don't think Speed offers as much benefit as Range as long as you have decent micro, because with Range you can keep them outside of Overlord sight range and thus they don't know where to send their Scourge, and will have to send them in deeper over your Dragoons in order to hit it. Speed requires more APM/micro IMO, and is still not faster than a Scourge. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany914 Posts
On July 30 2017 00:49 Jealous wrote: I think that hold position accomplishes the same task and is much easier to do in a situation where there are a hundred tiny Interceptors flying around. It would be nice if I wouldn't have to read this very WRONG statement all the time from people who never play Terran. One of the reasons carriers are very hard to deal with is, unless you spam a-move during the battle your goliaths don't do shit, especially, if the carriers are just parked over a cliff. So if you want to lose all goliaths for free, please use hold position. There is the possibility to use patrol during the time you cannot micro the battle, then they shoot atleast sometimes. But the only way to make goliaths shoot consistently is by spamming a-move. | ||
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On July 30 2017 01:19 Cryoc wrote: It would be nice if I wouldn't have to read this very WRONG statement all the time from people who never play Terran. One of the reasons carriers are very hard to deal with is, unless you spam a-move during the battle your goliaths don't do shit, especially, if the carriers are just parked over a cliff. So if you want to lose all goliaths for free, please use hold position. There is the possibility to use patrol during the time you cannot micro the battle, then they shoot atleast sometimes. But the only way to make goliaths shoot consistently is by spamming a-move. Strange, I have played enough Terran to see move + hold shoot at interceptors, I guess a-move spam is better? I'm sure you're right that spamming a-move is the better, but it's not true that move-hold doesn't do anything, if we are talking about just shooting at Interceptors. How do you deal with all of the Interceptors being in your way - do you a-move back instead? | ||
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kogeT
Poland2042 Posts
I really struggle to set up the game properly via OBS (has been streaming whole my life via mca64 luncher). What I mean, as soon as I try to add any functionalities like twitch alerts, chat etc. I simply cannot put the game on the screen as I keep on getting a black screen. I stream on laptop, windows 10 x64, GeForce GTX 950M Any advice on how to do that..? Other programs I should use.. ? | ||
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Highgamer
1475 Posts
On July 30 2017 01:30 Jealous wrote: Strange, I have played enough Terran to see move + hold shoot at interceptors, I guess a-move spam is better? I'm sure you're right that spamming a-move is the better, but it's not true that move-hold doesn't do anything, if we are talking about just shooting at Interceptors. How do you deal with all of the Interceptors being in your way - do you a-move back instead? There's always more room than necessary to a-move on the ground, the interceptor-cloud is not THAT dense. Of course Hold also hits some interceptors - the problem is that with hold, Gols will stop, acquire a target, and when the target flies out of range, they'll still stay focussed on that taret sometimes, "waiting" for it to return (something like that, mb it's a little more complex in reality). With spam-A-move, the gols will constantly acquire new targets, not wasting time idling. Even if the gols miss "only" 5-10% of their shots with Hold, it is a big deal if there are 20+ gols and dozens of interceptors involved, dozens and hundreds of shots missed. If you fight a close battle, missing 5-10% of shots will make you lose EVERY fight vs carriers. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
On July 30 2017 02:31 kogeT wrote: To all the streamers out there.. I really struggle to set up the game properly via OBS (has been streaming whole my life via mca64 luncher). What I mean, as soon as I try to add any functionalities like twitch alerts, chat etc. I simply cannot put the game on the screen as I keep on getting a black screen. I stream on laptop, windows 10 x64, GeForce GTX 950M Any advice on how to do that..? Other programs I should use.. ? you playing fullscreen and using uscreencapture? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28911 Posts
On July 30 2017 02:37 Highgamer wrote: There's always more room than necessary to a-move on the ground, the interceptor-cloud is not THAT dense. Of course Hold also hits some interceptors - the problem is that with hold, Gols will stop, acquire a target, and when the target flies out of range, they'll still stay focussed on that taret sometimes, "waiting" for it to return (something like that, mb it's a little more complex in reality). With spam-A-move, the gols will constantly acquire new targets, not wasting time idling. Even if the gols miss "only" 5-10% of their shots with Hold, it is a big deal if there are 20+ gols and dozens of interceptors involved, dozens and hundreds of shots missed. If you fight a close battle, missing 5-10% of shots will make you lose EVERY fight vs carriers. pretty certain pressing hold makes goliaths miss way more than 5-10% compared to constant a move. it's a huge difference. I know you werent giving those numbers as fact but rather as an example-value, just backing up cryoc's point. I've played with carriers in many different eras of brood war. There were periods were they were basically invincible against terrans. some of the difficulty related to maps of the past (islands and cliffs over expansions make huge differences - both of those are largely a thing of the past), but imo the big difference happened exactly when terrans stopped trying to kill off the carriers and when they instead started killing the interceptors. Which happened when they realized that goliaths started consistently firing and killing interceptors when constantly attack-moved.  | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On July 29 2017 02:33 Dazed. wrote: Anyone?What is the build order for soulkeys fast ling speed into 4 hatch hydra build? i.e gas timing for speed, etc. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Jealous
10403 Posts
On July 30 2017 02:37 Highgamer wrote: There's always more room than necessary to a-move on the ground, the interceptor-cloud is not THAT dense. Of course Hold also hits some interceptors - the problem is that with hold, Gols will stop, acquire a target, and when the target flies out of range, they'll still stay focussed on that taret sometimes, "waiting" for it to return (something like that, mb it's a little more complex in reality). With spam-A-move, the gols will constantly acquire new targets, not wasting time idling. Even if the gols miss "only" 5-10% of their shots with Hold, it is a big deal if there are 20+ gols and dozens of interceptors involved, dozens and hundreds of shots missed. If you fight a close battle, missing 5-10% of shots will make you lose EVERY fight vs carriers. Thank you for the clarification! Always learning | ||
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Latedi
Sweden1027 Posts
On July 31 2017 21:06 ortseam wrote: Liquipedia includes 5rax TvZ/rax CC TvP so yeah it's good enough for a start. Cool, thanks. | ||
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