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thank you very much highgamer, i appreciate it.
this might not be a question with a simple answer, but is there a "normal" number of factories one can produce off of with 2 bases?
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3 factories is pretty normal if you're taking a third base, but you can have anywhere from 2 to 6.
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Adding a bit to what Sero said:
It is indeed not a simple answer, because it's all relative to your strategy (e.g. attack from 2 bases vs fast 3rd base + tech). Normally your build order should name the exact amount of factories that you should build at a certain point - and the number that you should have in the end when you're ready to attack.
In general: If you plan to make a big attack before you take your 3rd base, then go up to 5-6 factories. If you rather want to expand a second time soon, only build 2-3 factories total. If you want to expand, but expect your opponent to attack soon, go up to at least 4 factories and don't rush for your expo.
Afaik, as a rule of thump, every base can support 3 factories (1 of them with addon) in the end, after you finished building up other stuff (depots, workers, upgrades). But in the lategame for example in TvP, you should go up to 10-12 factories on 3 bases when you're maxed out at 200/200 supply, because after a big engagement you'll have to reproduce quickly with a big bank to spend.
Note that these numbers only make sense if you are constantly producing one unit after the other in all of your factories throughout the game, with no production-breaks and no cueing-up. If you have problems with that, you should work on this bit of skill first, and in the meantime use your resource-counter as an indicator: If you're not maxed out but are floating 1000 minerals or more and have nothing else to spend them on, build more factories.
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Just something to add to the nice posts above.
Based on the income from 1 geyser, which is about 300 gas a minute, you can guess how many factories you can support.
For example if you're going for a goliath only attack:
- goliaths take slightly less than half a minute to complete (let's say 30 seconds)
- they cost 50 gas a piece.
=> this means you can make about 6 goliaths a minute, thus can support about 3 factories.
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I read somewhere that the numer of factories on 3 bases before the Flash push should be 9, 3 of them with add-ons, which would fit what Highgamer said - 3 per base
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Slight disagreement with Highgamer, queuing 2 Vultures at a time is okay IMO because 2 Vultures finish at roughly the same time as 1 Tank and don't cost any gas. So if you have 4 factories 2 with add-on, let's say, then you go t t vv vv.
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It's not like I could queue up perfectly throughout myself ^^, but it's pretty obvious that this would be the best thing to achieve.
2 vultures queued up mean 150 minerals 'wasted' in this moment. If you go for the +2/+1 push in TvP for example and do this queuing up repeatedly before, let's say, the 13 minute mark, this will definitely slow down your spending quite a bit. Flash for example is literally spending every ounce throughout that build at any point in time, be it on another worker, a depot or a factory.
That said, it might be OK to do, if for example you're just about to fly your 3rd CC over to the mineral-spot and need full concentration for half a minute on unit-control because Protoss is nearby. And of course it's OK as long as one is not yet as good as Flash... lel
And in the lategame, of course, queue those dudes up all the way if you're floating 2k, 3k minerals... it's better to not have to do this in the midst of battles.
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It may be the best thing to achieve but to tell someone who is (I'm assuming) of relatively low skill level that even queuing 2 Vultures should be avoided is counter-productive, IMO. Reasoning is that if they have 100 eapm to devote to the game, macroing 1 Vulture at a time will take up twice as much eapm as queuing two at once. Not only that, it creates a situation where you are forced to go back home to macro every x seconds, thereby interrupting what you're doing elsewhere. It also means that if your attention is forced away (drop, recall, getting attacked in general) for longer than x seconds, you are unlikely (especially as a beginner) to adequately divide your attention between macro and micro. Of course it does not hurt to mention that ideal as a theoretical paragon of play, but I don't find it to be a practical one to have when trying to establish the fundamentals of the game.
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Norway28915 Posts
agreed. Imo bad players should both overproduce production facilities and queue more than what is ideal. They should work to not do this in general - but it's far better to have 6 factories and occasionally having 3 vultures queued in each of them than to have 4 factories and 2500 minerals - and one of the most commonly shared traits of all bad players is having a lot of spare resources.
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any generic resource for the playstyle of each race?
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liquipedia, progamer fpvods, recommended threads from strategy forum etc
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is there a channel on fish where foreigners gather?
if not, we should make one 
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On October 10 2016 12:24 XenOsky- wrote:is there a channel on fish where foreigners gather? if not, we should make one
[:Ladder :D
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On October 10 2016 12:24 XenOsky- wrote:is there a channel on fish where foreigners gather? if not, we should make one
Best idea ive heard in a long time
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United States2473 Posts
Does anyone have a tip they wouldn't mind sharing in regards to improving at this game? This may sound really vague, but it isn't. Like, sort of a psychological tip that makes you feel a certain way towards the game of Brood War. I'm aware that people that play golf have their little tips, and mind tricks for a more well rounded approach to the game. Something other than; "Play a lot, watch your replays, browse liqipedia". While these things are indeed helpful, I'm looking for more of a; "Think about X", or "Act like you're doing this", or "Visualize that". Does this make sense?
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I think this is very hard to answer if you do not want to give the general answer "play a lot" and "watch your replays". Because that is essentially what it is. You just have to do it with a "wanting to improve" mindset. What I mean by that is for example: You start playing and when you lose you watch the replay of it because obviously you did more wrong than your opponent. And when watching the replay you have to identify the actual crucial mistakes in your play and think about a possible solution for it. I don't know what level of play you are so I give you some examples to clarify what I mean. For example, if you play a TvP and want to go for an FD opening into fast 3rd CC a mistake that might often happen to beginners is that they accidentally delay their first tank because they are supply blocked or the build order is bad in general. This delays their expansion and they also have to face more units when moving out, putting you behind right at the start. Now mistakes like this are rather easy to identify but this gets harder as the in-game time increases.
Assume the same scenario but with a decent FD opening and no glaring macro mistakes and you want to take your 3rd with 2 Facs. But during the process of floating the CC to your 3rd you get overwhelmed by Protoss. Now you have to identify the reason of you getting overwhelmed. Was it because Protoss went heavy Gateway-style with no 3rd or because you were just out of position or did you not have anti-air or scan ready on time? And then you have to think of a solution for it which works for you. One possibility could be to go for an earlier comsat station to see, if you can safely take your 3rd. Another one could be to take your 3rd with 3-4 Facs to be safer versus any kind of bust. Or to use more vultures to get enough scouting information etc. And then you try your solution in your next games to see if it works and if it does look for the next mistake that made you lose.
A whole other problem is of course that you need somewhat consistent opponents to improve mid-lategame strategies and laddering on Iccup is probably not the best way to improve beyond the early game as you get mostly confronted with everything but standard play until at least B.
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United States2473 Posts
"Be the ball"
But for Brood War.
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On October 12 2016 18:56 Saturnize wrote:
Does anyone have a tip they wouldn't mind sharing in regards to improving at this game? This may sound really vague, but it isn't. Like, sort of a psychological tip that makes you feel a certain way towards the game of Brood War. I'm aware that people that play golf have their little tips, and mind tricks for a more well rounded approach to the game. Something other than; "Play a lot, watch your replays, browse liqipedia". While these things are indeed helpful, I'm looking for more of a; "Think about X", or "Act like you're doing this", or "Visualize that". Does this make sense?
I see sense in in it this way: I think these tips, generally speaking, are meant as 'encouraging simplifications' that work like placebos. You cannot 'be the ball', and imagining you were the ball alone doesn't really help you improve - but trying to makes you focus, keeps you going, creates a routine, and in the end helps you channel all the things you've practiced...
BW is not a ball-game though or comparable to such activities. As soon as you can click with a mouse and press a button, the real challenges concern the intellect or the dexterity of your mind and are far to complex to be summed up in one single tip. The center of what the game is about - like the ball - is much harder to point out.
Also: In golf, so to say, you play your own game for points, in BW you're trading blows. Iloveoov once summed up his mindset like this: "When you play, you have to start off with a mind to turn the game into a rape". Interesting for someone who's considered a strategical genius. I guess, with BW, you're not so much looking for a visualization or for an image of the game's functions or properties, rather it's like this: if you're out for blood, you'll find a way to kill... (or there is a complementary mindset: if you don't want to die, you'll find a way to stay alive). Anyway: At the core it's a game about winning by destroying your opponent's units and bases, you versus him/her in real time, not an equivalent to maneuvering a ball where it belongs according to certain rules/restraints (then again: maybe that's how Flash sees it, maybe he can kind of conceptualize the opponent ^^... but even he started out with some mean cheeses, all for the win... and Flash is Flash, of course...).
(As these mindsets might even be beyond personal influence: ) I would not completely dismiss what Cryoc wrote though, improving at BW, for the most part, is just a big heap of dedicated, precise work, it's about specific solutions for specific problems. Apart from a good mindset that keeps you going - including the awareness that everyone else is probably trying just as hard... but for 5 or 10 more years than you... - you need something that makes you work on concrete problems, not so much a principle of imagination but of analysis.
What counts if you want to improve your game's quality is endurance and efficiency. After every loss, brush it off, find one or two mistakes and make sure you don't make those mistakes again in the next game. + Show Spoiler +edit: and practice your mechanics first :D
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EPT
