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On May 09 2011 12:33 Magus wrote:
A lurker will take damage under dark swarm only from irradiate or a splash attack targeted at an adjacent unit.
A direct tank shot will not hurt a single lurker, but it will hurt clumped lurkers.
No.
The way swarm works is that it blocks primary damage from ranged units, but not splash. If the lurker pack is unburrowed, then they will all take splash damage
Burrow only takes damage from direct attacks, so if the lurker pack is all burrowed, than they will all take no damage.
I just tested to confirm. Whether the unit is directly targeted or not is irrelevant under swarm.
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Burrowed lurkers under swarm do not take damage from siege tank blasts but they also take damage from AoE and not just direct damage.
If I recall correctly, burrowed lurkers also take damage from mines and nukes so therefore, they take AoE damage as well.
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On May 09 2011 12:59 hacklebeast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 12:33 Magus wrote:
A lurker will take damage under dark swarm only from irradiate or a splash attack targeted at an adjacent unit.
A direct tank shot will not hurt a single lurker, but it will hurt clumped lurkers. No. The way swarm works is that it blocks primary damage from ranged units, but not splash. If the lurker pack is unburrowed, then they will all take splash damage Burrow only takes damage from direct attacks, so if the lurker pack is all burrowed, than they will all take no damage. I just tested to confirm. Whether the unit is directly targeted or not is irrelevant under swarm.
I've tested this too, and just confirmed what I said is true right now.
The Dark Swarm makes the unit shoot in front of their target, which means any lurkers burrowed in front of the lurker targeted will be hit by the shot but the splash radius does not hit the lurker that is actually being shot at.
Something funny I just saw, if you aim it right you can get a tank to one-shot a ling under swarm that is standing just far enough in front of your target. Otherwise it's always a two-shot kill with no upgrades. 
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The thing about dark swarm comes up every few months for some reason.
On May 09 2010 07:01 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote: Splash DamageBurrowed units do not take radial splash damage, not even from nukes (it will still do its primary damage in a large area, however, which the burrowed units are subject to). Under dark swarm, the tank's attack sprite is shifted so that it will do no damage to a burrowed lurker. However, if the tank attacks something else under the dark swarm, such as a zergling, and the point of impact is shifted so that it is on top of a burrowed lurker, it will take the primary damage incidentally. If there is only one lurker under a swarm, it will take no splash or incidental damage whatsoever. A tank's attack sprite is similarly shifted when missing a unit on top of high ground and thus will do no splash damage to a burrowed unit that it misses. Also, units burrowed close together can both be under the point of impact and thus be hit by the tank's primary 70 damage, but they will take none of the secondary or tertiary radial splash damage. And while I'm here, damage is reduced by armor before it is scaled down by size, e.g., a dragoon will deal (20-1)/2 instead of (20/2)-1 to a +1 carapace zergling, and a fully upgraded goliath will do 13 damage to a fully upgraded mutalisk rather than just 10.
On May 09 2010 07:30 bearbuddy wrote:In a nutshell ![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/7078/newbitmapimagenv.jpg)
Spider mines damage burrowed units under swarm because their attack is not affected by swarm, insofar as they chase down the unit and do their full damage on contact. Again, burrowed units would not take the 50% and 25% radial splash damage, but they will be damaged if they are in range of the primary damage. Similarly, imagine an infested terran running up to a unit, exploding on contact, and dealing its full damage. In effect, the infested terran, spider mine, and reaver scarab are all melee splash units.
To reiterate, burrowed units take no radial splash damage, not even from nukes. They will either take the full, primary damage or none.
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one thing i dont get is the nature of the sprite-shifting. is it just random or is there some arbitrary distance it moves to? or does it always move to another target under the swarm?
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On May 09 2011 16:29 Ideas wrote:
one thing i dont get is the nature of the sprite-shifting. is it just random or is there some arbitrary distance it moves to? or does it always move to another target under the swarm?
![[image loading]](http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8186/screen018zp.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [More Pictures] +
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On May 09 2011 16:29 Ideas wrote:
one thing i dont get is the nature of the sprite-shifting. is it just random or is there some arbitrary distance it moves to? or does it always move to another target under the swarm?
I believe it's 1 matrix (width of a dragoon) towards the unit that fired.
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United States10328 Posts
whew ok I'm glad people cleared this up... I remember getting into a livestream argument about this before -.-; but yeah I think it's shifted about a dragoon width (idk if that's "1 matrix"?) back toward the tank. So a lurker will still take direct damage there (but no splash!)
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edit: replaced with more useful post
On May 09 2011 10:02 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 08:48 Frigo wrote:On May 09 2011 08:30 ytter wrote:
i have a very relevant question:
Does a mind controlled overlord give protoss supply? It only gives zerg type of supply, which is pointless if you do not have any zerg units. You can however, use it for detection if for some twisted reason you have Mind Control and a Dark Archon with enough energy, but no Observer. I believe you can use it as transport for protoss units as well if the zerg researched it. Need confirmation on this one though. Q: Does Dark Swarm protect static defense buildings like sunks and spores the same way it protects units? On May 09 2011 06:50 Kassploj wrote:
No, buildings are not affected by dark swarm, only units. Mind you that sunkens use a type of ranged attack, and dark swarm neutralizes this attack. For these two reasons it is HIGHLY inadvisable to cast dark swarm on a sunken farm. You are right about the overlord. Any MC'd unit will retain any spells already researched for it, such as storm, siege, etc.
and you also "keep" the research; so in pvp, you could get any arbiter, templar, or capacity upgrade for "free" (free in the sense that you not counting the darchon and mc upgrades)
if for some crazy reason, you want to mc a drone and tech zerg, snagging an overlord for supply would be a good idea to steal ovi speed and be able to make drones immediately.
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On May 09 2011 16:08 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:The thing about dark swarm comes up every few months for some reason. Show nested quote +On May 09 2010 07:01 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:Splash DamageBurrowed units do not take radial splash damage, not even from nukes (it will still do its primary damage in a large area, however, which the burrowed units are subject to). Under dark swarm, the tank's attack sprite is shifted so that it will do no damage to a burrowed lurker. However, if the tank attacks something else under the dark swarm, such as a zergling, and the point of impact is shifted so that it is on top of a burrowed lurker, it will take the primary damage incidentally. If there is only one lurker under a swarm, it will take no splash or incidental damage whatsoever. A tank's attack sprite is similarly shifted when missing a unit on top of high ground and thus will do no splash damage to a burrowed unit that it misses. Also, units burrowed close together can both be under the point of impact and thus be hit by the tank's primary 70 damage, but they will take none of the secondary or tertiary radial splash damage. And while I'm here, damage is reduced by armor before it is scaled down by size, e.g., a dragoon will deal (20-1)/2 instead of (20/2)-1 to a +1 carapace zergling, and a fully upgraded goliath will do 13 damage to a fully upgraded mutalisk rather than just 10. Spider mines damage burrowed units under swarm because their attack is not affected by swarm, insofar as they chase down the unit and do their full damage on contact. Again, burrowed units would not take the 50% and 25% radial splash damage, but they will be damaged if they are in range of the primary damage. Similarly, imagine an infested terran running up to a unit, exploding on contact, and dealing its full damage. In effect, the infested terran, spider mine, and reaver scarab are all melee splash units. To reiterate, burrowed units take no radial splash damage, not even from nukes. They will either take the full, primary damage or none.
ah ok my bad on the dark swarm and nukes.
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I know Zerg generally under saturate their mineral lines relative to P and T because they are the most gas-needy race and need to take more expansions. However, what's an accurate metric for saying when the Zerg's economy is likely equivalent to the T or P's. I know 3 mining base zerg generally = 2 mining base T or P, but what about 6 vs 4 or something like that?
Also, has someone ever used stasis on a bunch of active mines, and if so how awesome was it?
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On May 09 2011 19:18 deafhobbit wrote:
I know Zerg generally under saturate their mineral lines relative to P and T because they are the most gas-needy race and need to take more expansions. However, what's an accurate metric for saying when the Zerg's economy is likely equivalent to the T or P's. I know 3 mining base zerg generally = 2 mining base T or P, but what about 6 vs 4 or something like that?
Also, has someone ever used stasis on a bunch of active mines, and if so how awesome was it?
If the number of drones and probes is the same, then the two players are about equal. 60 drones on 3 bases ~= 60 scvs on 2 bases. The only difference is that the Zerg is more vulnerable, and the terran will run out of minerals first, making it so he can't turtle as effectively. Zerg also needs hatcheries to up production, so they expand more because they need the hatchery anyways. Zerg also gets 50% more gas on 3 bases vs 2. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=89939
You can do the calculations yourself. When a terran has 3workers/patch * 8patches * 2 bases = 48 workers, and the zerg has 2 workers/ patch * 8 patches * 3 bases = 48 workers, the zerg comes out with an approximately 14% faster harvest rate.
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60 drones on 3 bases? That's 17 drones on minerals for each base, meaning 4 or perhaps 3 hatcheries per base, or 10 to 17 overall (5 to 3 drones on minerals per hatch). That drone count is more appropriate for 4 bases, with 2 hatcheries at each base, increased to 3 hatcheries if the money allows it. And a 4 base zerg with 60 drones and time to power up completely OWNS a 2-base terran, no matter how many SCVs he has.
A more realistic comparison would be 42 drones (3*[11+3]) vs somewhere between 42 and 60 SCVs (2*[9*2..3+3]).
Of course the question itself is silly, you can't make a straight comparison due to several factors, including the different mechanics of the races, different unit costs, different unit mixes, time available to power up, timing windows, etc.
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On May 09 2011 19:18 deafhobbit wrote:
I know Zerg generally under saturate their mineral lines relative to P and T because they are the most gas-needy race and need to take more expansions. However, what's an accurate metric for saying when the Zerg's economy is likely equivalent to the T or P's. I know 3 mining base zerg generally = 2 mining base T or P, but what about 6 vs 4 or something like that?
Also, has someone ever used stasis on a bunch of active mines, and if so how awesome was it?
There are too many factors to calculating advantage so you basically just wanna have at least one more base than T/P with enough workers. If T/P ever has 4 bases you should be focusing on other stuff like how to kill production facilities and the newer bases while protecting yours while fighting more efficiently than your opponent. You'll both be maxed out most likely at that point.
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On May 09 2011 10:28 hacklebeast wrote:
If that's what he was asking, it would look something like this:
3 hatch>14cc>12hatch>1 rax fe>12pool>overpool>2 rax>9 pool>bbs>5pool
This really doesn't make much sense. Just saying "3hatch" doesn't mean anything because it could mean anything from the standard 12hatch 11pool 13hatch or no pool 3hatch (12hatch 14hatch 13pool) or overpool 11hatch 15hatch. Each one are a different opening. The term "3hatch" doesn't designate a specific opening besides an overarching build that goes 3hatch before teching.
double cc > no pool 3hatch > 1rax no marine cc > standard 3hatch = standard 1rax cc
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moktira
Ireland1546 Posts
On May 09 2011 06:48 XXGeneration wrote:
No, a lurker doesn't not take damage under swarm at all.
The double negative is confusing there, also it should point out that it's a burrowed lurker
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On May 09 2011 10:28 hacklebeast wrote:
If that's what he was asking, it would look something like this:
3 hatch>14cc>12hatch>1 rax fe>12pool>overpool>2 rax>9 pool>bbs>5pool
this is wrong
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think buildings are protected under swarm (at least sunkens). I remember a game or two that I've played where a sunken under dark swarm was protected from marine fire.
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On May 10 2011 02:18 Zyferous wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think buildings are protected under swarm (at least sunkens). I remember a game or two that I've played where a sunken under dark swarm was protected from marine fire.
Buildings are never protected from swarm.
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