EPTI guess the way to test it would be having probes mining at a CC and SCVs mining at a Nexus and see how that turns out.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 179
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
I guess the way to test it would be having probes mining at a CC and SCVs mining at a Nexus and see how that turns out. | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On January 13 2014 05:13 jello_biafra wrote: I guess the way to test it would be having probes mining at a CC and SCVs mining at a Nexus and see how that turns out. Except that its statistically insignificant better to mine the ramp mineral and time it, several times. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
What the hell do I do if the terran has turrets up in time and makes it so that I cannot harass at all? In most of my games, the terran isn't stupid, he will build at least 4 turrets in his main and expo so that I take lots of hits if I attack with my mutas. Also, there is rarely ever a time when the Terran is "too slow" with his turrets. So what do I do? I feel like if I cannot kill scvs, my mutas are just wasted. Wouldn't it be better for me to tech immediately to lurkers and hive to fake him out, instead of going with mutas KNOWING that the turrets will be there? okay, let's say I do attack because there is always a weakspot, but if I do attack I will lose mutas and that will force me to keep making them to replace em, that will delay everything else. Meanwhile, my puny attacks aren't really doing much and the terran can just turret up more and then move out with mass marine. And there is no way I can stop mass marine ball when it moves out with just mutas. In most of my games, my mutas are just flying around and looking for expos. i never get the opening to harass scvs because the terran has turrets everywhere. so i fly around, and then he just holds tight while my harass is zero and gets a big ball of marines and moves out. I have lurkers by then so my lurkers sometimes do the job and I can stop him, but it irks me to no end that my mutas are worthless shitheads. i feel like im playing right into the terrans' hands by making them KNOWING he has turrets already and knowing my harass will be piss poor. So if I see the terran going mass turrets, can i just forgo the mutas and go straight to lurker+hive? | ||
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rebdomine
6040 Posts
Use your mutas to keep him from moving out, while you grab your 3rd and tech up. You don't actively have to be killing things but just keeping the Terran holed up in his base means the mutas are doing their job. You've already achieved the map control that your opening build strives for. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8939 Posts
On January 13 2014 16:19 Golgotha wrote: ZvT question about muta harass with the first 9 mutas... What the hell do I do if the terran has turrets up in time and makes it so that I cannot harass at all? In most of my games, the terran isn't stupid, he will build at least 4 turrets in his main and expo so that I take lots of hits if I attack with my mutas. Also, there is rarely ever a time when the Terran is "too slow" with his turrets. So what do I do? I feel like if I cannot kill scvs, my mutas are just wasted. Wouldn't it be better for me to tech immediately to lurkers and hive to fake him out, instead of going with mutas KNOWING that the turrets will be there? okay, let's say I do attack because there is always a weakspot, but if I do attack I will lose mutas and that will force me to keep making them to replace em, that will delay everything else. Meanwhile, my puny attacks aren't really doing much and the terran can just turret up more and then move out with mass marine. And there is no way I can stop mass marine ball when it moves out with just mutas. In most of my games, my mutas are just flying around and looking for expos. i never get the opening to harass scvs because the terran has turrets everywhere. so i fly around, and then he just holds tight while my harass is zero and gets a big ball of marines and moves out. I have lurkers by then so my lurkers sometimes do the job and I can stop him, but it irks me to no end that my mutas are worthless shitheads. i feel like im playing right into the terrans' hands by making them KNOWING he has turrets already and knowing my harass will be piss poor. So if I see the terran going mass turrets, can i just forgo the mutas and go straight to lurker+hive? you can fake mutas and go lurker by hiding your den somewhere, but if he finds it hes gonna leave his base asap with what he has and start pressuring you. the point of mutas isnt to harrass scvs, its to stall his army while you tech to lurkers and get a 3rd base up. 4 turrets per base honestly isnt enough to cover everything, so hit whatever weak spot you can find, whether it be exposed supply depots, starports, ebays, lonely turrets etc. again, the point of mutalisks is to keep his army at bay, so do whatevers necessary to make his marines chase you around. if you get to destroy any buildings or kill some scvs its considered a bonus, but you should at least be reducing his army every now and then. medic/firebat snipes are good too | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On January 13 2014 14:33 thezanursic wrote: Except that its statistically insignificant better to mine the ramp mineral and time it, several times. I thought we were trying to test the speed and acceleration of scvs and probes? | ||
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JohnChoi
1773 Posts
On January 13 2014 16:19 Golgotha wrote: ZvT question about muta harass with the first 9 mutas... What the hell do I do if the terran has turrets up in time and makes it so that I cannot harass at all? In most of my games, the terran isn't stupid, he will build at least 4 turrets in his main and expo so that I take lots of hits if I attack with my mutas. Also, there is rarely ever a time when the Terran is "too slow" with his turrets. So what do I do? I feel like if I cannot kill scvs, my mutas are just wasted. Wouldn't it be better for me to tech immediately to lurkers and hive to fake him out, instead of going with mutas KNOWING that the turrets will be there? okay, let's say I do attack because there is always a weakspot, but if I do attack I will lose mutas and that will force me to keep making them to replace em, that will delay everything else. Meanwhile, my puny attacks aren't really doing much and the terran can just turret up more and then move out with mass marine. And there is no way I can stop mass marine ball when it moves out with just mutas. In most of my games, my mutas are just flying around and looking for expos. i never get the opening to harass scvs because the terran has turrets everywhere. so i fly around, and then he just holds tight while my harass is zero and gets a big ball of marines and moves out. I have lurkers by then so my lurkers sometimes do the job and I can stop him, but it irks me to no end that my mutas are worthless shitheads. i feel like im playing right into the terrans' hands by making them KNOWING he has turrets already and knowing my harass will be piss poor. So if I see the terran going mass turrets, can i just forgo the mutas and go straight to lurker+hive? The point of mutas in ZvT isn't to do a ton of damage and cripple terran (although its really awesome if you can) but to keep terran occupied and scared to leave his base. If you bothered terran enough to the point where you have your third gas running, lurkers on the ramp protecting the base and you have a mid/late game plan in progress your mutas have done its job. If you want to harass and cripple terran to the point of defeat it would be better to play an aggressive 2 hatch muta build. You should check out Modesty's ZvT he does a really cool 2 hatch muta where he takes a very fast third gas and morphs like 12 gaurdians after horribly crippling terran and making him build like 30 turrets  | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On January 13 2014 16:19 Golgotha wrote: ZvT question about muta harass with the first 9 mutas... What the hell do I do if the terran has turrets up in time and makes it so that I cannot harass at all? In most of my games, the terran isn't stupid, he will build at least 4 turrets in his main and expo so that I take lots of hits if I attack with my mutas. Also, there is rarely ever a time when the Terran is "too slow" with his turrets. So what do I do? I feel like if I cannot kill scvs, my mutas are just wasted. Wouldn't it be better for me to tech immediately to lurkers and hive to fake him out, instead of going with mutas KNOWING that the turrets will be there? okay, let's say I do attack because there is always a weakspot, but if I do attack I will lose mutas and that will force me to keep making them to replace em, that will delay everything else. Meanwhile, my puny attacks aren't really doing much and the terran can just turret up more and then move out with mass marine. And there is no way I can stop mass marine ball when it moves out with just mutas. In most of my games, my mutas are just flying around and looking for expos. i never get the opening to harass scvs because the terran has turrets everywhere. so i fly around, and then he just holds tight while my harass is zero and gets a big ball of marines and moves out. I have lurkers by then so my lurkers sometimes do the job and I can stop him, but it irks me to no end that my mutas are worthless shitheads. i feel like im playing right into the terrans' hands by making them KNOWING he has turrets already and knowing my harass will be piss poor. So if I see the terran going mass turrets, can i just forgo the mutas and go straight to lurker+hive? The point is, by using your mutas to make him build at least 8 turrets, they're already doing their job. If you went straight lurkers he wouldn't have to invest in as many turrets. Your mutas are delaying his pushout and keeping him in his base slowly chipping at him, and even if you dont do horrendous economic damage you're getting closer to defilers and shiz | ||
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Birdie
New Zealand4438 Posts
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On January 14 2014 04:23 jello_biafra wrote: I thought we were trying to test the speed and acceleration of scvs and probes? No we were trying to test out if protoss has a miss chance mining up hill (Destination). | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
yes probes have misschance, but only if they are standing on the "bottom" of the ramp, which happens mostly when they try their best to hide from drone shooting over the minerals. no idea about drones/scvs. | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On January 12 2014 17:43 thezanursic wrote: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&list=PL10FAD687BF05F727&v=NzjrZmzI2-I 2:24. Is this true? I'd test it out myself, but I don't have access to a working Brood War at the moment. I know that Probes and Drones are ranged, but does that really apply to mining to? Talking about mining miss chance, not attacking. I'm stuck on an android so I can't really test it. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
and then the probe is on the ramp, but it looks like that exact tile counts as "low ground" while the minerals are high ground = 50% miss chance applies. (probe should also have no vision of the highground in that case [only vision of the mineral]) | ||
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On January 14 2014 16:47 Bakuryu wrote: and im talking about that exact mining misschance, which happens at the exact same location as in the video if the probe is mining from the bottom left corner of the mineral field to avoid being in the place where the scv is in that vod (because the scv could be attacked by an enemy probe/drone by shooting over the mineral patch) and then the probe is on the ramp, but it looks like that exact tile counts as "low ground" while the minerals are high ground = 50% miss chance applies. (probe should also have no vision of the highground in that case [only vision of the mineral]) Wait are you talking about the probe missing shots when mining up hill and trying to attack something on the other side or the probe mining slower when the probe is on the low ground and the mineral on high ground. I think we might be having some miscommunication issues here. | ||
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
if they are mining from low ground to high ground, u will see the animation "missing" the mineral patch, but they will still mine at the same speed as all the others. i guess i must have played vs somebody who always interupted his probe since i honestly remember winning because he didnt mine through the backdoor after my 12 hatch 11 pool lings hatched and my lings already went half way to his base..... again, 100% mining regardless of position. sry i was wrong^^ | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On January 14 2014 11:09 traceurling wrote: The point is, by using your mutas to make him build at least 8 turrets, they're already doing their job. If you went straight lurkers he wouldn't have to invest in as many turrets. Your mutas are delaying his pushout and keeping him in his base slowly chipping at him, and even if you dont do horrendous economic damage you're getting closer to defilers and shiz If the Terran built turrets in a circle around his base, remember that you can past them, in above his main and do damage there. It's very common for Terrans to build their turrets in such a manner. | ||
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sjukungen1
Burkina Faso59 Posts
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thezanursic
5504 Posts
On January 16 2014 05:24 sjukungen1 wrote: What the fuck is going on? It's like 3 hour wait time to get a game on iCCup at C level, didn't play for like 2 weeks and come back to this? Anyone know? What time are you playing at? | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8939 Posts
you also expabd your gateway from 2-6 after your archives, although its not necessarily in one go. storm is gotten after you have gotten speed and ground upgrades for zealots. if zerg isnt going hydra bust mode, you want to get your 3rd quite early. keep zerg distracted with any dts and the handful of zealots you have and build a couple cannons at your 3rd first. by the time your nexus finishes you should have storm and be on your way to having observers and dragoon range. this is all a general outline though, not all the timings are going to be exactly as i say also, note that it may be better to switch the order of storm vs dragoon upgrades and observers. you should make the call in game depending on how aggressive zerg is with his hydras and zerglings, but you definitely want to have all your tech up before your opponent can contain you with too many lurkers. | ||
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