|
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 27 2004 23:27 wakiki wrote:Okay okay, your right, I had a brain fart. But Zeals are very fast. My point wasn't that you could outrun Vultures, or Stimmed Marines, or Speedlings. My point was that if someone is attacking an expansion, they can get there in a pinch with Zeals and Scouts, two of the most maneuverable units in the game. Zeals actually feel pretty fast because their A.I. is fairly good(I suppose it's because they are fairly small). So I don't think my whole post was worthless  But to each his own.
Speed on air:
Scouts (upg) == Corsairs == Muta == Wraiths == Valks.
- Valkyries have slightly worse acceleration than everyone else.
- Scout w/o upgrade is around 30% slower.
- Build times : Corsair < Valk < Wraith << Scout, don't remember muta's.
Speed on land:
Vulture > Zergling > Zealot > (slightly) Hydralisk
- Vulture is approx 2 times faster than zealot.
- Zergling is about 30% faster.
- Ultalisk is nearly or exactly same speed as zergling, hence faster than zealot.
How can scouts-zelas be one of the most maneuverable, if they aren't?
|
They are.
Scouts are up there with the fastest air units, hence they are one of the most maneuverable units.
Zealots are only really beaten by vultures. Zerglings are also more maneuverable but you need more lings to pack the same punch so they are about tied. Ultralisks tends to lumber around in places they shouldn't be to much because of their size so they aren't really faster than zealots either.
|
On December 28 2004 09:31 Liquid`Drone wrote:
speed zealots are fast
slower than speedy vults and lings yes, but they're quite fast nonetheless.
mass scout in ffa is *very* good. like, templar/cannon defense in every expansion and running around with 36 3/3/3 speedy scouts
killing that force is insanely hard.
also whoever said scouts aren't fast like mutas, speed scouts are as fast as mutas.
they're just faaaaaaar to expensive to be viable in 1v1
when u mean faaaaar to expensive u mean faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar to expensive, i think even in FFA, getting scout its like ... odd, i mean thin 2 scourge can kill ur scout and it cost u like 6 scourges...
|
actually you need 3 scourge 
|
United States10774 Posts
Umm..when you have like 30 carriers chiling in your main base you can try scout/zealot..
so damn expensive, tech to stargate ccitadel upgrade scout shit..-_-
Impossible on 1v1.
|
But in a FFA, couldn't you just punish scout in the same way you are defending? Mass cannon and templar? Two storms = almost dead scout and scouts stack...
|
No. Scouts have to much HP so you can run them out of there before storms can really hurt them. Fully graded scouts and a lot of shield batteries are actually pretty good in FFA.
|
On December 28 2004 09:50 Random() wrote:
Speed on air:
Scouts (upg) == Corsairs == Muta == Wraiths == Valks.
- Valkyries have slightly worse acceleration than everyone else.
Speed on land:
Vulture > Zergling > Zealot > (slightly) Hydralisk
How can scouts-zelas be one of the most maneuverable, if they aren't?
You are missing something. Guess what you are missing? 36 Scouts will absolutely rip apart any air unit, except for Valks, which they can outrun. They beat Corsairs, Mutas, and Wraiths like there is no tomorrow. I've faced huge Dev + Muta armies with scouts, and never even lost a Scout(since Scouts don't do splash damage, the Dev's spores don't affect them nearly as much as Corsairs).
And also, they are among the fastest air units in the game. Don't say Scouts areb't manueverable, you sound like an idiot 
Of course, you should have 2 or more Observers for every control group of Scouts, and you can afford it, because Scout + Zeal leaves you with alot of extra gas. Believe me, while they are popping a few Observers, Wraiths will be dropping left and right. If they successfully kill all six-8 of your Observers, then they will have lost ~10-15 Wraiths, and then you can just run. I don't know the actual unit statistics, but to me it feels like Wraiths and Scouts have the same speed, but that Wraiths have slower acceleration. Even if Wraiths can catch up to them, they will only get off stray hits, and have to re-accelerate every time.
Furthermore, Valks don't rip apart, or even properly counter, Scouts. They only barely counter them, in large numbers, with full upgrades. The problem is Scouts have fairly high armor, which really hurts Valks effectiveness. I have encountered groups of 12-24 Valks with my Scouts and simply attack moved into them, and killed them, but they did take off my shields.
Scouts also rip apart Carriers and Battlecruisers. Furthermore, they can't run, so basically they just have to sit and fight your 36 Scouts, and lose all of their army(while killing maybe 3-4 Scouts). Scouts are designed to counter capital ships.
So, in conclusion? Scouts > Air
Another thing that is key is that Scouts approach a "critical mass" around 3 control groups or so, meaning that they can beat most ground units, except for Goliaths, which they can simply retreat over cliffs from. The reason is because air units stack. Let's say that you have 36 Scouts vs like 50 Marines. Since the Marines are land units, they will block each other's path, so only ~12 will be attacking at one time. But all 36 of the Scouts will be attacking at once. This applies to most land units, except, as I mentioned earlier, Goliaths, which are slow and clunky.
So, once Scouts get to this "critcal mass," then that means that they can A) kill any air threats, B) kill many ground threats, and C) run from any ground units that threaten to harm them.
And then we get to Zeals. When upgraded, Zeals are very fast. If you say "but Zeals suck cause without the upgrade they are slow" then I will say "Carriers are worthless because you have to research the +4 upgrade" or "Tanks really aren't worth getting because of that Seige research that you need to get." Sheesh. Don't say that Zealots are slow units, please -.- they aren't.
Now then, let's say you are facing a balanced Terran force(in FFA) consisting of Turrets, Tanks, Vultures with Mines, and Goliaths. Will you win? Perhaps not, but keep in mind that these units take much more management than Scouts and Zeals. That's one of their advantages. Micro / Macro are a resource too.
The reason why I use them in FFA is because I have difficulty spending money from 4-5 mining bases, so I use easy-micro units.
|
Sair>Scout cost wise.. k thx
36 sair vs 36 scout = sair won, got more question?
beside, air stack means they are weak against: storm/archon/devour/corsair/plague/ even Dswarmed hydras will beat scouts...
scout=underdog.
|
hydras would beat scouts without dswarm.............................................................................
|
On December 28 2004 12:35 wakiki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2004 09:50 Random() wrote:
Speed on air:
Scouts (upg) == Corsairs == Muta == Wraiths == Valks.
- Valkyries have slightly worse acceleration than everyone else.
Speed on land:
Vulture > Zergling > Zealot > (slightly) Hydralisk
How can scouts-zelas be one of the most maneuverable, if they aren't? You are missing something. Guess what you are missing? 36 Scouts will absolutely rip apart any air unit, except for Valks, which they can outrun. They beat Corsairs, Mutas, and Wraiths like there is no tomorrow. I've faced huge Dev + Muta armies with scouts, and never even lost a Scout(since Scouts don't do splash damage, the Dev's spores don't affect them nearly as much as Corsairs).
Read Evan's post. 36 fully up'd sairs vs 36 fully up'd scouts and sairs will win. By the way, it seems like from reading your post, you play fastest map ever. But I could be wrong, I mean hell, people get scout forces on hunters all the time.
I don't think you know what Dev spores do.They slow down the attack. Therefore they don't take away any splash effects, rather just slow down the rate of fire. Scouts don't do splash damage, okay agreed, but sairs still do splash even with 9 spores. And it's a pure lie that you don't lose ' a single scout ' when facing ' huge muta+dev ' armies.
And also, they are among the fastest air units in the game. Don't say Scouts areb't manueverable, you sound like an idiot
Okay. You're right. Right now, you vs me PvZ, I go all muta only and you go Scout only with upgrade since you need speed to be ' manuverable ' Hmmm, man you're gonna rape me.
Of course, you should have 2 or more Observers for every control group of Scouts, and you can afford it, because Scout + Zeal leaves you with alot of extra gas. Believe me, while they are popping a few Observers, Wraiths will be dropping left and right. If they successfully kill all six-8 of your Observers, then they will have lost ~10-15 Wraiths, and then you can just run. I don't know the actual unit statistics, but to me it feels like Wraiths and Scouts have the same speed, but that Wraiths have slower acceleration. Even if Wraiths can catch up to them, they will only get off stray hits, and have to re-accelerate every time.
Because you can afford it? It leaves you with alot of extra gas? Ummm, Scouts cost 125 gas buddy. Oh and Stargates? Cost 150 gas each. Don't bullshit me and say you're going to have only one stargate. Oh, and that Fleet beacon, yeah that's another 200 gas. And guess what, the upgrade costs another 200 gas. Hmm observers cost 75 gas. Where in your calculations do these 6-8 obs come from. Hmmm late game when you've already won?
Furthermore, Valks don't rip apart, or even properly counter, Scouts. They only barely counter them, in large numbers, with full upgrades. The problem is Scouts have fairly high armor, which really hurts Valks effectiveness. I have encountered groups of 12-24 Valks with my Scouts and simply attack moved into them, and killed them, but they did take off my shields.
This whole time we've been talking about Scouts fully upgraded but when you vs them against things you don't give them the same circumstances? Mmmmmmkay. Notice Valks have the same type of armor. So if anything the ' effectiveness ' is cancelled out.
Only time you encounter 12-24 Valks with scouts is yet again, money maps.
Scouts also rip apart Carriers and Battlecruisers. Furthermore, they can't run, so basically they just have to sit and fight your 36 Scouts, and lose all of their army(while killing maybe 3-4 Scouts). Scouts are designed to counter capital ships.
What is with you and the number 36. If you have 36 upgraded scouts and they have capital ships, don't you think one of you clearly already won? And it's not like they could lockdown/stasis you, cuz you have invinceble scouts omfg.
So, in conclusion? Scouts > Air
In conclusion. You just made an asshat out of yourself.
Another thing that is key is that Scouts approach a "critical mass" around 3 control groups or so, meaning that they can beat most ground units, except for Goliaths, which they can simply retreat over cliffs from. The reason is because air units stack. Let's say that you have 36 Scouts vs like 50 Marines. Since the Marines are land units, they will block each other's path, so only ~12 will be attacking at one time. But all 36 of the Scouts will be attacking at once. This applies to most land units, except, as I mentioned earlier, Goliaths, which are slow and clunky.
Okay EXCEPT goliaths. 3 control groups or so, that's what....hm.....THIRTY-SIX OMFGWTFBBQGRASS. Okay 36 scouts vs....oh so many options. 1 Arbiter and 40 goons. Defiler swarm hydra. Queen ensnare scourge. The list goes on buddy. And don't even say none of those are reasonable. If you have 3 control groups of scouts, than any unit in the game with all upgrades can be had.
So, once Scouts get to this "critcal mass," then that means that they can A) kill any air threats, B) kill many ground threats, and C) run from any ground units that threaten to harm them.
Your simple newbie mind is only thinking of unit vs unit, not scouts vs any combo of units which is very possible to be against.
And then we get to Zeals. When upgraded, Zeals are very fast. If you say "but Zeals suck cause without the upgrade they are slow" then I will say "Carriers are worthless because you have to research the +4 upgrade" or "Tanks really aren't worth getting because of that Seige research that you need to get." Sheesh. Don't say that Zealots are slow units, please -.- they aren't.
Give me a big enough area and I will kill an infinite number of zealots with one speed/mine upgraded vulture 1v1. They are slow compared to vults. PvT zeal vs vult you will die.
Lings? You get 4 for every zeal. They can run away for reinforcements, burrow and ambush and not to mention spawn faster than zealots.
You say zealots are fast, I will say yeah, they are fast, but having zeal/scout will get raped by storm/dragoon, scourge/muta/cracks, vult/wraith [ because no, you won't have 6-8 obs ]
Now then, let's say you are facing a balanced Terran force(in FFA) consisting of Turrets, Tanks, Vultures with Mines, and Goliaths. Will you win? Perhaps not, but keep in mind that these units take much more management than Scouts and Zeals. That's one of their advantages. Micro / Macro are a resource too.
There you go.
The reason why I use them in FFA is because I have difficulty spending money from 4-5 mining bases, so I use easy-micro units.
Hmmm what kinda FFA's are you playing.
|
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
wakiki,
Valkyries don't kill scouts for the same reason they don't kill anything properly - it's an idiotic limit on number of their rockets that can be in the air simultaneously, that is only 10 valks can fire together. Corsairs kill scouts in numbers 12+. And ANY air will die to "HUGE muta/dev" army.
|
I don't play money maps (why would I expand 4 times on a money map?) but maps like Flooded Plains(6 player) and other maps that I've made. My point about Scouts vs. Hydras (and other ground) is:
A) Scouts often are able to win battles vs. ground because they can stack while ground can't.
or
B) If you encounter a HUGE mass of units, then don't fight them. You simply run away, and harrass his peon lines.
I did this to a Zerg player on Flooded Plains (go look at it if you don't know what it looks like). I would simply run in and kill Drones. He would move his Hydra army to defend (it was too large for me to fight) so then I ran back over the water and harrassed another expansion. He moved his Hydra army to defend, and so I went back to the expansion I was harrassing earlier, and finished off the remainder of his Drones. He had three or so Spore Colonies up but since the Hydras were at his other expansion, they fell quickly. He tried attacking me a few times but I had Cannons and Templar at each of my expos, and an army of Zeals. Whenever he would retreat his Hydras, I would attack them with my Scouts, until he stopped and fought them, then I woudl retreat. I might only kill four Hydras this way, but hey, every unit counts  Another guy in the FFA built a huge Muta / Dev / Guardian force, which was ripped apart by the Scouts. Perhaps they weren't upgraded? I didn't see.
My point is, Scouts can be anywhere on the map in seconds, because they are so fast, and they can drive players crazy. Just use them like Mutas.
And it's not that unusual in FFA's for players to have four mining bases either. I bet that you are a much better player than I am, but that you don't play FFAs very much
Also, if a unit does splash damage, that means the enemies armor is taking effect more. So, if a Valk hits 8 targets 8 times, each with 3 armor, then the total damage saved is 192. If a Scout does 32 damage to a Valkyrie, and it has three armor, then the total damage saved is three. Here's another way to think of it: let's say that the Valks are doing 10 damage(easy, round number) and the Scouts have 2 armor. It's preventing 1/5 of the damage. Lets say that Scouts are doing 30 damage, and a valk has 2 armor. It's preventing 1/15 of the damage.
Also, I don't know this, but I thought that Dev's spores also lowered attack damage and/or armor, but this has always been vague to me. If they only change attack speed, then you are correct, it's equally as bad for Scouts as it is Corsairs.
Also, since Scouts and Zeal's both cost so many minerals, then you will have some extra gas later. You are correct in that all those upgrades and tech do cost gas, but you only have to research them once. When building Zeals / Scouts you will have a gas surplus after you've got that stuff (which is a big problem with Scouts / Zeals).
|
I didn't read all of that but i'll tell you one thing:
muta+devourer in large numbers will devastate scouts
1. Devourer slow down fire rate (increases cool down between attacks)
2. acid spores mean +1 dmg per hit for each
3. muta attack hits 3 times meaning that if a scout has 9 spores it will do an insane amount of dmg
4. Scout damage is 50% or 75% can't remember which against muta because its explosive and muta is small unit ( i am not 100% sure of this, but anyway, muta+devs own scouts)
If we are talking 36 scouts against 12 devs and 48 muta with a queen, you will get absolutely destroyed and can't even run away.
And if you think the numbers aren't that well thought out: 36 scouts = 108 and sth psi, 60 air units = 120 control. Since we are talking late game, this is perfectly possible.
|
The most annoying thing when you make some scout is...
Getting to play against queens.
Parasite make a scout useless.
Ensnare is also a nightmare.
|
wakiki, how the hell do you play pvz or pvt so taht you have the resources to take 4 expos and make 36 scouts if your opponent is pressuring you like he should? Terran will be able to run you over very quickly or raze your expos once you start neglecting zeals to make scouts (and vults will rape those zeals that you do make) and Zerg will be able to simply run you over with zerglings while you get those scouts.
Let's just assume that you get those 36 scouts, fully upgraded, without your opponent ever realizing (I dunno... Maybe he fell asleep or something) or ever attacking you with his army while you're spending 10k of minerals on scouts. He attacks you with hydras and razes your base to the ground. You can't stop it, because the mass of hydras is too big. He drops you with cracklings at 4 different places. You can't do anything about it, because your expos are dead by the time you get there. He attacks your base with goliaths and tanks. You can't defend it because missile turrets and the large number of goliaths make it almost impossible to defend. (2.5 goliaths = 1 scout cost-wise. Want to bet on 90 goliaths against 36 scouts?)
|
Norway28669 Posts
okay
as for scouts in ffas
they're hard to beat with *protoss*, and arguably terran.
a zerg with plenty of gas will not struggle. well, he'll have problems attacking, but that's mostly due to the cannon/templar combos. but if he plays properly he can easily defend. :o
|
16987 Posts
Scouts:
Explosive 2x damage, two sets of 14.
Each missile does fourteen damage.
Each missile does seven damage to Mutalisks, for explosive attacks do 50% to small units.
Each missile is subtracted from any Mutalisk armour.
Scouts do at most, 14 damage to Mutalisks.
Mutalisk attack is nine, Devourer is 25. Acid spores +1 any damage applied to it. Mutalisk attack bounces three times. With nine acid spores, Mutalisk attack does 9(+9)+3(+9)+1(+9) =40 damage. Actually, I think the bounces only do three and one respectively, not too up to date with my theory craft. Anyway, at this rate, Mutalisks easily overpower Scouts in terms of damage. Mutalisks are also about three times cheaper, which means you can get three for the price of one. Scout has less than three times the amount of HP than a Mutalisk, so they lose in the resulting battle.
With Queens, Ensnare makes Scout movement rate and attack rate shitty slow, and Parasite negates any "surprise due to maneuverability" advantage Scouts may have.
Zerg air>Scouts badly late game.
|
On December 28 2004 16:17 0x64 wrote:
The most annoying thing when you make some scout is...
Getting to play against queens.
Parasite make a scout useless.
Ensnare is also a nightmare.
i think the most annoying thing is that scouts are slow, if they just where faster without the uog they would be much more usefull..
|
Good thinking empyrean, yet you are a little off. Your conclusion is not correct.
You are speaking of a muta/devourer combination. A combination often owns a single unit.
Scouts are there to be used ESPECIALLY late game vs zerg air because it does 26 dmg vs devourers and with upgrades many more. As for sairs do 3 dmg and carriers 8 times 4 dmg.
Devourers are pretty hard to own with just sair/carrier, scouts are good to mix in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
