EPT
tell me what u think, i pretty much expect this idea turn out to be like... say... bat vs hydra
er...Scout/Zeal?!
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
tell me what u think, i pretty much expect this idea turn out to be like... say... bat vs hydra | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
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neSix
United States1772 Posts
Anyway, I just think hydra would rape the strat... It might have better luck against something like mutaling. | ||
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
i tried dt/scout once for fun and it failed miserably | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
On December 27 2004 15:08 Mindcrime wrote: evan... shhhh curse u... u always kill my ideas like that~ | ||
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
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Veigh
Netherlands300 Posts
hydra lurk.... no need to say more, eh? | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
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Mmad
Netherlands124 Posts
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
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SoMuchBetter
Australia10606 Posts
and it does work, if youre skilled enough to handle it... | ||
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Milzo
France656 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 27 2004 16:41 Milzo wrote: Zeal/scout might work if you play Vanilla. no | ||
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
On December 27 2004 15:39 Veigh wrote: two words: hydra lurk.... no need to say more, eh? works for me project failed, scout/zeal = :r | ||
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
But the surprising thing is, this actually works on FFA. Since Zeals are the fastest land unit, and Scouts are very very fast, you can defend all your stuff very easily, but just placing your units near the middle of all of your expansions, and moving out to defend one when its attacked. Unless you are hugely over extended, it works. It requires basically no micro, so you can just focus on macroing from 3-5 expos. Once you get 3 control groups of Scouts, they can be deadly as harrassers, because the only air counter to scouts is Valkyries. (Thirty-six Scouts can beat any air force. And if they, for some bizarre reason, are losing, they can outrun any other air unit.) Scouts are far more manueverable than any ground unit(i.e. they can out run Goliaths, etc.). And Zeals provide the backup for other stuff. Scouts and Zeals aren't incredibly powerful - they probably couln't take on a well-rounded Terran force of Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths - but they are a decent combination, and they require very little micro (you just use attack move with Zeals, and move / attack move with Scouts). Ah, but let me re-iterate: 1v1? No. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On December 27 2004 15:40 pheered.user wrote: hahaha, when i was a big big newb i thought zeal/sair was the best pvz strategy and used it very very successfully vs my zerg friends. What do you mean 'when you were a newb'? | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 27 2004 22:10 wakiki wrote: 1v1? No. But the surprising thing is, this actually works on FFA. Since Zeals are the fastest land unit, and Scouts are very very fast, you can defend all your stuff very easily, but just placing your units near the middle of all of your expansions, and moving out to defend one when its attacked. Unless you are hugely over extended, it works. It requires basically no micro, so you can just focus on macroing from 3-5 expos. Once you get 3 control groups of Scouts, they can be deadly as harrassers, because the only air counter to scouts is Valkyries. (Thirty-six Scouts can beat any air force. And if they, for some bizarre reason, are losing, they can outrun any other air unit.) Scouts are far more manueverable than any ground unit(i.e. they can out run Goliaths, etc.). And Zeals provide the backup for other stuff. Scouts and Zeals aren't incredibly powerful - they probably couln't take on a well-rounded Terran force of Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths - but they are a decent combination, and they require very little micro (you just use attack move with Zeals, and move / attack move with Scouts). Ah, but let me re-iterate: 1v1? No. Since Zeals are the fastest land unit, That made your whole post worthless. | ||
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SoLaR[i.C]
United States2969 Posts
On December 27 2004 22:10 wakiki wrote: HuH?! Zealots are slow and so are scouts, both suck at speed. Vulture, Ling, Stimmed Marine > Zealot.1v1? No. But the surprising thing is, this actually works on FFA. Since Zeals are the fastest land unit, and Scouts are very very fast, you can defend all your stuff very easily, but just placing your units near the middle of all of your expansions, and moving out to defend one when its attacked. Unless you are hugely over extended, it works. It requires basically no micro, so you can just focus on macroing from 3-5 expos. Once you get 3 control groups of Scouts, they can be deadly as harrassers, because the only air counter to scouts is Valkyries. (Thirty-six Scouts can beat any air force. And if they, for some bizarre reason, are losing, they can outrun any other air unit.) Scouts are far more manueverable than any ground unit(i.e. they can out run Goliaths, etc.). And Zeals provide the backup for other stuff. Scouts and Zeals aren't incredibly powerful - they probably couln't take on a well-rounded Terran force of Tanks, Turrets, and Goliaths - but they are a decent combination, and they require very little micro (you just use attack move with Zeals, and move / attack move with Scouts). Ah, but let me re-iterate: 1v1? No. | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
On December 27 2004 22:13 gg_hertzz wrote: What do you mean 'when you were a newb'? still am a newb, but when i was a 'big big newb' learn to read what I write, newb. | ||
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pheered.user
United States2603 Posts
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Chris307
3095 Posts
Zeal/Scout won't work against Hydra because Scouts take 100% damage from Hydralisks at all times and Zealots are 37.5% protoss shielding which always takes full damage from all damage types Let alone the fact that Scouts suck complete fucking shit and aren't even CLOSE to being cost-effective... even speed upgraded scouts aren't fast like Mutalisks are. Even speed upgraded zealots aren't fast like zerglings are, they're also larger than zerglings so a mass of zealots gets less hits in than a mass of lings, on top of the fact that overall costeffectiveness of 1 ling vs 1 zealot already heavily favors the zergling Blizzforums.com please | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
But Zeals are very fast. My point wasn't that you could outrun Vultures, or Stimmed Marines, or Speedlings. My point was that if someone is attacking an expansion, they can get there in a pinch with Zeals and Scouts, two of the most maneuverable units in the game. Zeals actually feel pretty fast because their A.I. is fairly good(I suppose it's because they are fairly small). So I don't think my whole post was worthless  But to each his own. | ||
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iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
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J1
Canada579 Posts
EDIT: damn that make me sound like a noob. | ||
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Milzo
France656 Posts
Wasn't this used with an old patch then? I remember something like that.  | ||
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Misca
Netherlands605 Posts
On December 27 2004 22:19 Ack1027 wrote: Since Zeals are the fastest land unit, That made your whole post worthless. Zeals with speed upgrade are almost as fast as vultures, they are fast. | ||
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Mmad
Netherlands124 Posts
On December 27 2004 15:59 Alpha wrote: sice when do scourge/ling WORKS? pls... read... you dumb fuck :r | ||
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[G]Max_Power
Slovakia304 Posts
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Chris307
3095 Posts
On December 28 2004 02:56 Milzo wrote: Wasn't this used with an old patch then? I remember something like that. It was used by Agent911 when facing Zileas in game 1 of the Brood War Beta Tournament Finals, and he got seriously crushed. That's the only time I've ever seen Zeal/Scout used in an important game... | ||
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yeehaw
San Marino888 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
get speed upgrade and use them like scalpels ok fuck | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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Jim
Sweden1965 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 28 2004 03:13 Misca wrote: Zeals with speed upgrade are almost as fast as vultures, they are fast. almost as fast as vultures This made your whole post worthless. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28670 Posts
slower than speedy vults and lings yes, but they're quite fast nonetheless. mass scout in ffa is *very* good. like, templar/cannon defense in every expansion and running around with 36 3/3/3 speedy scouts killing that force is insanely hard. also whoever said scouts aren't fast like mutas, speed scouts are as fast as mutas. they're just faaaaaaar to expensive to be viable in 1v1 | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
On December 27 2004 23:27 wakiki wrote: Okay okay, your right, I had a brain fart. But Zeals are very fast. My point wasn't that you could outrun Vultures, or Stimmed Marines, or Speedlings. My point was that if someone is attacking an expansion, they can get there in a pinch with Zeals and Scouts, two of the most maneuverable units in the game. Zeals actually feel pretty fast because their A.I. is fairly good(I suppose it's because they are fairly small). So I don't think my whole post was worthless But to each his own.Speed on air: Scouts (upg) == Corsairs == Muta == Wraiths == Valks. - Valkyries have slightly worse acceleration than everyone else. - Scout w/o upgrade is around 30% slower. - Build times : Corsair < Valk < Wraith << Scout, don't remember muta's. Speed on land: Vulture > Zergling > Zealot > (slightly) Hydralisk - Vulture is approx 2 times faster than zealot. - Zergling is about 30% faster. - Ultalisk is nearly or exactly same speed as zergling, hence faster than zealot. How can scouts-zelas be one of the most maneuverable, if they aren't? | ||
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
Scouts are up there with the fastest air units, hence they are one of the most maneuverable units. Zealots are only really beaten by vultures. Zerglings are also more maneuverable but you need more lings to pack the same punch so they are about tied. Ultralisks tends to lumber around in places they shouldn't be to much because of their size so they aren't really faster than zealots either. | ||
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
On December 28 2004 09:31 Liquid`Drone wrote: speed zealots are fast slower than speedy vults and lings yes, but they're quite fast nonetheless. mass scout in ffa is *very* good. like, templar/cannon defense in every expansion and running around with 36 3/3/3 speedy scouts killing that force is insanely hard. also whoever said scouts aren't fast like mutas, speed scouts are as fast as mutas. they're just faaaaaaar to expensive to be viable in 1v1 when u mean faaaaar to expensive u mean faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar to expensive, i think even in FFA, getting scout its like ... odd, i mean thin 2 scourge can kill ur scout and it cost u like 6 scourges... | ||
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
so damn expensive, tech to stargate ccitadel upgrade scout shit..-_- Impossible on 1v1. | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2620 Posts
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
On December 28 2004 09:50 Random() wrote: Speed on air: Scouts (upg) == Corsairs == Muta == Wraiths == Valks. - Valkyries have slightly worse acceleration than everyone else. Speed on land: Vulture > Zergling > Zealot > (slightly) Hydralisk How can scouts-zelas be one of the most maneuverable, if they aren't? You are missing something. Guess what you are missing? 36 Scouts will absolutely rip apart any air unit, except for Valks, which they can outrun. They beat Corsairs, Mutas, and Wraiths like there is no tomorrow. I've faced huge Dev + Muta armies with scouts, and never even lost a Scout(since Scouts don't do splash damage, the Dev's spores don't affect them nearly as much as Corsairs). And also, they are among the fastest air units in the game. Don't say Scouts areb't manueverable, you sound like an idiot Of course, you should have 2 or more Observers for every control group of Scouts, and you can afford it, because Scout + Zeal leaves you with alot of extra gas. Believe me, while they are popping a few Observers, Wraiths will be dropping left and right. If they successfully kill all six-8 of your Observers, then they will have lost ~10-15 Wraiths, and then you can just run. I don't know the actual unit statistics, but to me it feels like Wraiths and Scouts have the same speed, but that Wraiths have slower acceleration. Even if Wraiths can catch up to them, they will only get off stray hits, and have to re-accelerate every time. Furthermore, Valks don't rip apart, or even properly counter, Scouts. They only barely counter them, in large numbers, with full upgrades. The problem is Scouts have fairly high armor, which really hurts Valks effectiveness. I have encountered groups of 12-24 Valks with my Scouts and simply attack moved into them, and killed them, but they did take off my shields. Scouts also rip apart Carriers and Battlecruisers. Furthermore, they can't run, so basically they just have to sit and fight your 36 Scouts, and lose all of their army(while killing maybe 3-4 Scouts). Scouts are designed to counter capital ships. So, in conclusion? Scouts > Air Another thing that is key is that Scouts approach a "critical mass" around 3 control groups or so, meaning that they can beat most ground units, except for Goliaths, which they can simply retreat over cliffs from. The reason is because air units stack. Let's say that you have 36 Scouts vs like 50 Marines. Since the Marines are land units, they will block each other's path, so only ~12 will be attacking at one time. But all 36 of the Scouts will be attacking at once. This applies to most land units, except, as I mentioned earlier, Goliaths, which are slow and clunky. So, once Scouts get to this "critcal mass," then that means that they can A) kill any air threats, B) kill many ground threats, and C) run from any ground units that threaten to harm them. And then we get to Zeals. When upgraded, Zeals are very fast. If you say "but Zeals suck cause without the upgrade they are slow" then I will say "Carriers are worthless because you have to research the +4 upgrade" or "Tanks really aren't worth getting because of that Seige research that you need to get." Sheesh. Don't say that Zealots are slow units, please -.- they aren't. Now then, let's say you are facing a balanced Terran force(in FFA) consisting of Turrets, Tanks, Vultures with Mines, and Goliaths. Will you win? Perhaps not, but keep in mind that these units take much more management than Scouts and Zeals. That's one of their advantages. Micro / Macro are a resource too. The reason why I use them in FFA is because I have difficulty spending money from 4-5 mining bases, so I use easy-micro units. | ||
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evanthebouncy
China491 Posts
36 sair vs 36 scout = sair won, got more question? beside, air stack means they are weak against: storm/archon/devour/corsair/plague/ even Dswarmed hydras will beat scouts... scout=underdog.  | ||
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littlechava
United States7218 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 28 2004 12:35 wakiki wrote: You are missing something. Guess what you are missing? 36 Scouts will absolutely rip apart any air unit, except for Valks, which they can outrun. They beat Corsairs, Mutas, and Wraiths like there is no tomorrow. I've faced huge Dev + Muta armies with scouts, and never even lost a Scout(since Scouts don't do splash damage, the Dev's spores don't affect them nearly as much as Corsairs). Read Evan's post. 36 fully up'd sairs vs 36 fully up'd scouts and sairs will win. By the way, it seems like from reading your post, you play fastest map ever. But I could be wrong, I mean hell, people get scout forces on hunters all the time. I don't think you know what Dev spores do.They slow down the attack. Therefore they don't take away any splash effects, rather just slow down the rate of fire. Scouts don't do splash damage, okay agreed, but sairs still do splash even with 9 spores. And it's a pure lie that you don't lose ' a single scout ' when facing ' huge muta+dev ' armies. And also, they are among the fastest air units in the game. Don't say Scouts areb't manueverable, you sound like an idiot Okay. You're right. Right now, you vs me PvZ, I go all muta only and you go Scout only with upgrade since you need speed to be ' manuverable ' Hmmm, man you're gonna rape me. Of course, you should have 2 or more Observers for every control group of Scouts, and you can afford it, because Scout + Zeal leaves you with alot of extra gas. Believe me, while they are popping a few Observers, Wraiths will be dropping left and right. If they successfully kill all six-8 of your Observers, then they will have lost ~10-15 Wraiths, and then you can just run. I don't know the actual unit statistics, but to me it feels like Wraiths and Scouts have the same speed, but that Wraiths have slower acceleration. Even if Wraiths can catch up to them, they will only get off stray hits, and have to re-accelerate every time. Because you can afford it? It leaves you with alot of extra gas? Ummm, Scouts cost 125 gas buddy. Oh and Stargates? Cost 150 gas each. Don't bullshit me and say you're going to have only one stargate. Oh, and that Fleet beacon, yeah that's another 200 gas. And guess what, the upgrade costs another 200 gas. Hmm observers cost 75 gas. Where in your calculations do these 6-8 obs come from. Hmmm late game when you've already won? Furthermore, Valks don't rip apart, or even properly counter, Scouts. They only barely counter them, in large numbers, with full upgrades. The problem is Scouts have fairly high armor, which really hurts Valks effectiveness. I have encountered groups of 12-24 Valks with my Scouts and simply attack moved into them, and killed them, but they did take off my shields. This whole time we've been talking about Scouts fully upgraded but when you vs them against things you don't give them the same circumstances? Mmmmmmkay. Notice Valks have the same type of armor. So if anything the ' effectiveness ' is cancelled out. Only time you encounter 12-24 Valks with scouts is yet again, money maps. Scouts also rip apart Carriers and Battlecruisers. Furthermore, they can't run, so basically they just have to sit and fight your 36 Scouts, and lose all of their army(while killing maybe 3-4 Scouts). Scouts are designed to counter capital ships. What is with you and the number 36. If you have 36 upgraded scouts and they have capital ships, don't you think one of you clearly already won? And it's not like they could lockdown/stasis you, cuz you have invinceble scouts omfg. So, in conclusion? Scouts > Air In conclusion. You just made an asshat out of yourself. Another thing that is key is that Scouts approach a "critical mass" around 3 control groups or so, meaning that they can beat most ground units, except for Goliaths, which they can simply retreat over cliffs from. The reason is because air units stack. Let's say that you have 36 Scouts vs like 50 Marines. Since the Marines are land units, they will block each other's path, so only ~12 will be attacking at one time. But all 36 of the Scouts will be attacking at once. This applies to most land units, except, as I mentioned earlier, Goliaths, which are slow and clunky. Okay EXCEPT goliaths. 3 control groups or so, that's what....hm.....THIRTY-SIX OMFGWTFBBQGRASS. Okay 36 scouts vs....oh so many options. 1 Arbiter and 40 goons. Defiler swarm hydra. Queen ensnare scourge. The list goes on buddy. And don't even say none of those are reasonable. If you have 3 control groups of scouts, than any unit in the game with all upgrades can be had. So, once Scouts get to this "critcal mass," then that means that they can A) kill any air threats, B) kill many ground threats, and C) run from any ground units that threaten to harm them. Your simple newbie mind is only thinking of unit vs unit, not scouts vs any combo of units which is very possible to be against. And then we get to Zeals. When upgraded, Zeals are very fast. If you say "but Zeals suck cause without the upgrade they are slow" then I will say "Carriers are worthless because you have to research the +4 upgrade" or "Tanks really aren't worth getting because of that Seige research that you need to get." Sheesh. Don't say that Zealots are slow units, please -.- they aren't. Give me a big enough area and I will kill an infinite number of zealots with one speed/mine upgraded vulture 1v1. They are slow compared to vults. PvT zeal vs vult you will die. Lings? You get 4 for every zeal. They can run away for reinforcements, burrow and ambush and not to mention spawn faster than zealots. You say zealots are fast, I will say yeah, they are fast, but having zeal/scout will get raped by storm/dragoon, scourge/muta/cracks, vult/wraith [ because no, you won't have 6-8 obs ] Now then, let's say you are facing a balanced Terran force(in FFA) consisting of Turrets, Tanks, Vultures with Mines, and Goliaths. Will you win? Perhaps not, but keep in mind that these units take much more management than Scouts and Zeals. That's one of their advantages. Micro / Macro are a resource too. There you go. The reason why I use them in FFA is because I have difficulty spending money from 4-5 mining bases, so I use easy-micro units. Hmmm what kinda FFA's are you playing. | ||
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Random()
Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
Valkyries don't kill scouts for the same reason they don't kill anything properly - it's an idiotic limit on number of their rockets that can be in the air simultaneously, that is only 10 valks can fire together. Corsairs kill scouts in numbers 12+. And ANY air will die to "HUGE muta/dev" army. | ||
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
A) Scouts often are able to win battles vs. ground because they can stack while ground can't. or B) If you encounter a HUGE mass of units, then don't fight them. You simply run away, and harrass his peon lines. I did this to a Zerg player on Flooded Plains (go look at it if you don't know what it looks like). I would simply run in and kill Drones. He would move his Hydra army to defend (it was too large for me to fight) so then I ran back over the water and harrassed another expansion. He moved his Hydra army to defend, and so I went back to the expansion I was harrassing earlier, and finished off the remainder of his Drones. He had three or so Spore Colonies up but since the Hydras were at his other expansion, they fell quickly. He tried attacking me a few times but I had Cannons and Templar at each of my expos, and an army of Zeals. Whenever he would retreat his Hydras, I would attack them with my Scouts, until he stopped and fought them, then I woudl retreat. I might only kill four Hydras this way, but hey, every unit counts Another guy in the FFA built a huge Muta / Dev / Guardian force, which was ripped apart by the Scouts. Perhaps they weren't upgraded? I didn't see. My point is, Scouts can be anywhere on the map in seconds, because they are so fast, and they can drive players crazy. Just use them like Mutas. And it's not that unusual in FFA's for players to have four mining bases either. I bet that you are a much better player than I am, but that you don't play FFAs very much Also, if a unit does splash damage, that means the enemies armor is taking effect more. So, if a Valk hits 8 targets 8 times, each with 3 armor, then the total damage saved is 192. If a Scout does 32 damage to a Valkyrie, and it has three armor, then the total damage saved is three. Here's another way to think of it: let's say that the Valks are doing 10 damage(easy, round number) and the Scouts have 2 armor. It's preventing 1/5 of the damage. Lets say that Scouts are doing 30 damage, and a valk has 2 armor. It's preventing 1/15 of the damage. Also, I don't know this, but I thought that Dev's spores also lowered attack damage and/or armor, but this has always been vague to me. If they only change attack speed, then you are correct, it's equally as bad for Scouts as it is Corsairs. Also, since Scouts and Zeal's both cost so many minerals, then you will have some extra gas later. You are correct in that all those upgrades and tech do cost gas, but you only have to research them once. When building Zeals / Scouts you will have a gas surplus after you've got that stuff (which is a big problem with Scouts / Zeals). | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2695 Posts
muta+devourer in large numbers will devastate scouts 1. Devourer slow down fire rate (increases cool down between attacks) 2. acid spores mean +1 dmg per hit for each 3. muta attack hits 3 times meaning that if a scout has 9 spores it will do an insane amount of dmg 4. Scout damage is 50% or 75% can't remember which against muta because its explosive and muta is small unit ( i am not 100% sure of this, but anyway, muta+devs own scouts) If we are talking 36 scouts against 12 devs and 48 muta with a queen, you will get absolutely destroyed and can't even run away. And if you think the numbers aren't that well thought out: 36 scouts = 108 and sth psi, 60 air units = 120 control. Since we are talking late game, this is perfectly possible. | ||
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0x64
Finland4556 Posts
Getting to play against queens. Parasite make a scout useless. Ensnare is also a nightmare. | ||
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goldrush
Canada709 Posts
Let's just assume that you get those 36 scouts, fully upgraded, without your opponent ever realizing (I dunno... Maybe he fell asleep or something) or ever attacking you with his army while you're spending 10k of minerals on scouts. He attacks you with hydras and razes your base to the ground. You can't stop it, because the mass of hydras is too big. He drops you with cracklings at 4 different places. You can't do anything about it, because your expos are dead by the time you get there. He attacks your base with goliaths and tanks. You can't defend it because missile turrets and the large number of goliaths make it almost impossible to defend. (2.5 goliaths = 1 scout cost-wise. Want to bet on 90 goliaths against 36 scouts?) | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28670 Posts
as for scouts in ffas they're hard to beat with *protoss*, and arguably terran. a zerg with plenty of gas will not struggle. well, he'll have problems attacking, but that's mostly due to the cannon/templar combos. but if he plays properly he can easily defend. :o | ||
Empyrean
16987 Posts
Explosive 2x damage, two sets of 14. Each missile does fourteen damage. Each missile does seven damage to Mutalisks, for explosive attacks do 50% to small units. Each missile is subtracted from any Mutalisk armour. Scouts do at most, 14 damage to Mutalisks. Mutalisk attack is nine, Devourer is 25. Acid spores +1 any damage applied to it. Mutalisk attack bounces three times. With nine acid spores, Mutalisk attack does 9(+9)+3(+9)+1(+9) =40 damage. Actually, I think the bounces only do three and one respectively, not too up to date with my theory craft. Anyway, at this rate, Mutalisks easily overpower Scouts in terms of damage. Mutalisks are also about three times cheaper, which means you can get three for the price of one. Scout has less than three times the amount of HP than a Mutalisk, so they lose in the resulting battle. With Queens, Ensnare makes Scout movement rate and attack rate shitty slow, and Parasite negates any "surprise due to maneuverability" advantage Scouts may have. Zerg air>Scouts badly late game. | ||
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Alpha
France1495 Posts
On December 28 2004 16:17 0x64 wrote: The most annoying thing when you make some scout is... Getting to play against queens. Parasite make a scout useless. Ensnare is also a nightmare. i think the most annoying thing is that scouts are slow, if they just where faster without the uog they would be much more usefull.. | ||
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{ToT}Strafe
Thailand7026 Posts
You are speaking of a muta/devourer combination. A combination often owns a single unit. Scouts are there to be used ESPECIALLY late game vs zerg air because it does 26 dmg vs devourers and with upgrades many more. As for sairs do 3 dmg and carriers 8 times 4 dmg. Devourers are pretty hard to own with just sair/carrier, scouts are good to mix in. | ||
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
In the little mini-report of the FFA game that I described, perhaps the guy with the air army didn't have upgrades. I didn't check. Or perhaps it was because of the Guardians that he had - to fight other players, no doubt - which were obviously useless against my scouts, thus making his anti air army smaller? I'm not sure. Actually, Drone, at my level of skill I have more trouble beating a balanced Terran with Zeals + Scouts. Tanks + Gols + Mines + Turrets are a beast, or even just massed Gols. I've never had problems with Zerg....perhaps they just forget to upgrade. Also, Empyrean, I thought that Ensnare only lowered movement speed, not attack rate? One last thing, Ack1027, I would like it if you would just discuss the strategy at hand, rather than insulting the other person repeatedly. It only makes you look rude and less intelligent, whether your reasoning is correct or not. ;( | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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tree
United States591 Posts
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wakiki
United States65 Posts
Also, I was basing my information off of the game that I described, not numbers. I've actually played several FFAs with Scouts, and have never lost them to other air units (meaning, that I have always won any air battle when I had the Scouts). Am I just way ahead in upgrades or what? And Ack, I come here and ask questions, even about my own views sometimes (that's the best way to learn). It seems to me that you come here to prove other people wrong and laugh at them and say they have newbish minds, etc. | ||
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LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 28 2004 21:35 wakiki wrote: And Ack, I come here and ask questions, even about my own views sometimes (that's the best way to learn). It seems to me that you come here to prove other people wrong and laugh at them and say they have newbish minds, etc. If I did that I wouldn't be here as long as I have. Ask around, I help out as much as I can, but when someone makes threads/questions about some of the most basic fundamentals of bw, I have a hard time not laughing at them. Anyway, asking questions is fine but you're not really asking a question here. You are stating that Scout/Zeal is good and not asking if it would be good in any circumstance. Yeah, you came in and said Scout/Zeal owns ffa. Not many people really care about ffa, it's for fun, just like this strat. TeamLiquid strategy is where you learn to better yourself, if you came here to become better at FFA's, I'm quite sure there are millions of other strats our members can come up with that is better than Scout/Zeal. I'm not going to lower my standards/expectations of TeamLiquid members just because you are relatively new. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
And if someone sees one guy expoing as much as you said, they would be beaten down cause no one likes a mass expander, not in ffa anyways? And I have played many FFAs on LANs with skilled friends, they dont look like the games you describe... I'm pretty sure scout/zeal sucks dick in ffa too, tho I have never tried it and never will. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28670 Posts
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kandyman
Swaziland665 Posts
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Archon_Wing
United States378 Posts
On December 28 2004 13:26 evanthebouncy wrote: Sair>Scout cost wise.. k thx 36 sair vs 36 scout = sair won, got more question? beside, air stack means they are weak against: storm/archon/devour/corsair/plague/ even Dswarmed hydras will beat scouts... scout=underdog. This is not to mention that corsairs have better range. Thus even more scout ownage in greater numbers. Unless the corsairs were behind in upgrades. And since sairs are cheaper it should be more like 50 sairs vs 36 scouts. | ||
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