PvP - reaver dragoon vs DT FE into HT's

On February 27 2011 23:06 WeRRa wrote:
imo the one with reavers has the adavantage, cause u have more units, u just push as soon as u see he has the dts and should win pretty easy.

On February 27 2011 21:57 JMave wrote:
if he goes dt and you go goon reaver, then you should make a second observer after your first or if you made shuttle then after shuttle, and attack.

the reason is that he will be very low on unit count. if you wait to have your reaver out then attack, he will probably have way enough cannons in his nat front and his storm research would probably already be finished.

normally if you open dts in pvp, the idea is to gain control with the dt to sort of threaten him of a dt sneak in if he decides to attack. so if you get the second observer, you can defend your ramp with your next 2 goons after your first group of 7 moves out.

On February 27 2011 23:31 foppa wrote:
some goons reaver pushes will break it. your timing needs to hit before storm and/or your shuttle needs to be quick on picking up your reaver to avoid storms. best advice is that you should figure out his goon range timing when your goon range is done. if you notice his is not done, 2 gate obs is a far better option. if unsure, i would always ground reaver expand which is far more conservative and isnt really bad vs anything (besides 1 gate expand) but scouting from your first units should be able to tell if thats going on

On February 27 2011 23:39 vOdToasT wrote:


Sometimes I manage to break their front with goon reaver, but most of the time the storms fend me off :/

Anyway, even if Bisu had stayed at home with his templars during that game of MSL ro16, Stork would probably still have been able to break it with good micro. So I guess if you do a standard gate robo gate you should be fine as long as your micro isn't lackluster.

On February 27 2011 23:49 foppa wrote:


if you do obs before shuttle, you aren't going to break it. then it comes down to excellent micro. myself I don't want to decide the game on my micro in the early game. I am more confident going into the midgame at par. that's why i would always try my best to figure out the goon range timing.

but again this is kind of the coin flip nature of pvp. usually reaver pushes put you somewhat behind against dt openings.

On February 27 2011 21:47 vOdToasT wrote:
Are there any vods or replays where one Protoss goes normal reaver goon (2 or 3 gate), and the other P goes DT fast expand, some cannons, then templars behind the cannons with storm, and the reaver / goon player wins?

I'd really appreciate it. Also, if you can tell me what the reaver / goon player is supposed to do, that would also be much appreciated. Wether it's possible to tell that he's going to do it and adapt early, or if there's something you can do after he gets that fast exp up with the templars behind it.

On February 27 2011 23:16 vOdToasT wrote:


So you mean attack with just dragoons and an observer, with no reaver?

I guess that actually makes sense. The cannons you force him to throw up to survive might even out the economical advantage he got from the über early expansion, too.

On February 28 2011 15:26 endy wrote:
What I always do at my C- level when I scout dts into expand :

Because of dt tech + exp + cannons, he will usually make obs very late, and because of the risk that I push his natural with goons reavers, he'll keep all his units at his nat.
So I only make 1 obs to defend dts and expand. Then I'll use my shuttle + reaver to harass. Because he'll keep units at nat and he doesn't have obs, unless I fly my shuttle over a hidden pylon or something, harassing him is really easy. Even if I don't get any probe, he'll have to move probes from main to natural and lose a lot of mining time.
With my rather fast expand + harassment, I'm in a decent position for mid-game.

On February 28 2011 19:12 JMave wrote:


i quite agree. if you decide not to attack, then the pressure is back on you though. your next priority after getting your expanion is to match his tech because him going dts automatically puts him ahead in tech.

also adding in 1-2 dts in your army composition is good because it will force him to get observers before being able to push out, which can allow you to squeeze in a third faster than he can.

On February 28 2011 23:47 foppa wrote:


getting dt tech doesn't mean you're going to be able to safely expand. why progamers automatically go to citadel as soon as they realize their opponent opened dt is to be able to counter a no-robo timing push

On March 01 2011 09:43 JMave wrote:


i don't know where you are getting at. i'm not saying to primarily get dt tech to prevent him from moving out. it is to catch up with him in terms of tech. your main priority is still to get hts with storm.

On February 27 2011 23:39 vOdToasT wrote:


Sometimes I manage to break their front with goon reaver, but most of the time the storms fend me off :/

Anyway, even if Bisu had stayed at home with his templars during that game of MSL ro16, Stork would probably still have been able to break it with good micro. So I guess if you do a standard gate robo gate you should be fine as long as your micro isn't lackluster.

On March 03 2011 03:42 Muff2n wrote:
I don't have enough of an understanding to be sure about this.

But.

My response has always been (off shuttle obs rvr obs) to move out asap with the reaver and pressure as much as I can. I rally my next 2 goons and obs to my choke to defend the backstab. Then I cut goons to expo ASAP. If he has few cannons, attack and win. If he has built enough cannons, I dont feel behind. He has spent $$$ on base defence (4 out front and 1 in main lets call it). I also have an obs in his base and will get 100% scouting info for ages. He can't move out pre obs as stated by others due to me going DTs if I see him add fast gates.

Of course he has HT gathering energy, faster nat, faster 2nd gas, faster +1 and the cannons do count for something even later in the game. Overall I feel equal, as I have the option to take a 3rd off just reaver goon if I see him tech to robo or go HTs myself.

Can a stronger player (I'm C+) enlighten me as to who holds the advantage in this situation?

On February 28 2011 15:26 endy wrote:
What I always do at my C- level when I scout dts into expand :

Because of dt tech + exp + cannons, he will usually make obs very late, and because of the risk that I push his natural with goons reavers, he'll keep all his units at his nat.
So I only make 1 obs to defend dts and expand. Then I'll use my shuttle + reaver to harass. Because he'll keep units at nat and he doesn't have obs, unless I fly my shuttle over a hidden pylon or something, harassing him is really easy. Even if I don't get any probe, he'll have to move probes from main to natural and lose a lot of mining time.
With my rather fast expand + harassment, I'm in a decent position for mid-game.

On March 03 2011 13:19 Ero-Sennin wrote:
Protoss will have at least 3 storms in that situation, so unless you catch them being cocky with only like 1 cannon to hold, they're going to be able to defend that pretty easily.

I wouldn't waste my money on one reaver (just take your expansion faster or get your DTs out faster) unless I was planning on going shuttle speed to harass (so I could have it for future storm drops).

On March 04 2011 06:44 Muff2n wrote:


Hmm this is something I have considered. But I felt that the reaver would help to force extra cannons. Of course the dt player has no idea whether there is actually a reaver in the shuttle, so you can fake him and not even build one. But I do know that I like to go goon reaver followup and take a fast 3rd so I need to churn out the reavers to help vs speedlots. Not sure though.

On March 04 2011 06:58 JMave wrote:


waiting for your reaver and then pushing out is dangerous. you have to force the extra cannons right when his expansion just gets up so he has to add cannons instead of gateways. you're basically forcing him to delay his timing push against you and to even out the economic advantage.

On March 04 2011 08:20 Muff2n wrote:


But I have spent moneys on a shuttle and a robo bay. Thats his nexus paid for right there. Ok he might not have goon range but do you really think I can do anything? I can't make the reaver and fly it later because I need that 2nd obs as soon as I move my goons out. More details on the tactics involved please! (Also second argument: its 80 ingame seconds, and I have 2 gates producing. He definately is not out producing me so I'm not sure the cannon situation would change. [though I accept storm is researching]).

On March 04 2011 11:54 evilfatsh1t wrote:
i think a lot of you guys are also counting on the dt player to skip goon range in order to get dts
this isnt really necessary, because the aim for this player isnt to all in you..he just wants the economic advantage
in that case he only needs to make 1 dt as opposed to the usual 2 that we see in older games. the money that would have gone into the 2nd dt has instead been spent on goon range
example bisu vs pure 09-10 playoffs

On March 04 2011 14:02 JMave wrote:


i think that game was really the way it was because of the map layout. because of that huge long distance between the bases and that shorter distance with the small bridge, they could afford to do things you don't normally see like 1 gate expansion and this 1 gate dt goon range thing.

bisu essentially predicted pure's decision on going for a fast 1 gate expansion the moment he saw that pure went zcorez and no goon range upgrade after pure's first goon was out. at that timing, its usually when the second gate for a dt opponent would go up(3/4 citadel completion). this 1 gate dt goon range is an adaptation to what bisu saw and he realised that he could apply pressure to pure with a higher goon count and a single dt because of the delayed robo timing due to the expansion. also, bisu could squeeze out 3 goons instead of 2 because he didn't add that second gateway.

had pure gone for a standard 2 gate robo, i doubt bisu would have gone for a 1 gate dt goon range into expansion.

On March 04 2011 18:37 evilfatsh1t wrote:


pure didnt go zcore z
he went corezgoon
goon upgrade was also running before the goon got out...
bisu didnt predict what pures build was going to be and even if he could he made the wrong decision of "pressuring" with a dt because if pure had been a little more careful with his observer the dt would have achieved nothing...and pure would have been way ahead
bisu vs stats is an example of bisu going dt fe and stats doing the same build as pure, where he successfully blocks the first dt, is equal in economy and applies better pressure mid game
but on topic, yes maps probably did have an effect on whether bisu could upgrade goon range etc, but this just shows that there isnt a 100% correct way to play anything

On March 04 2011 10:20 JMave wrote:


if he had gone dts, his dts would usually arrive when your shuttle is still half-way building. so you can cancel the shuttle and make a second observer instead. normally, a dt player will expand right when his dt is out, followed by researching storm. at this point, his unit count is extremely low and he will probably just be warping in cannons. if you attack now with 7 or so goons, then you have an extremely good chance killing off his natural expansion or at the very least, force him to make so many cannons.

usually by this time, his expansion will already be up for approx 1 minute, which is prime time to add gateways. so you need to force him to be adding cannons at this point so that he cannot achieve his gateway count for a timing push.

note that when you push out with the first 7 goons and 2 zealots, its important to expand at your natural right away and rallying your next 2 goons to your ramp with your second observer. if you can force an over-reaction by him or if he makes a whole lot of cannons(like 6-7), then go and get another base.

but even at this point, you haven't really won because he still has a superior economy and therefore, a stronger army for that period of time so you still need to be up to par with your macro and to constantly be on the look out for his gateway count and when he decides to push out.

also, you must match his tech as well.