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fseer
United States13 Posts
I saw the one of Testie vs Bisu and it seemed like Testie could have had a small advantage had he built 1 or 2 less cannons, but probably came out even in the exchange Also, it would be helpful if someone spoke about economy and army movement during this thread. In particular, where do you place the reaver (harass vs attack front) and when do you cut probes/take a 3rd/take a 2nd (depending on specific counter you do of course) | ||
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Piste
6183 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
In any matchup, if you don't know when to harass with the reaver, or when to cut probes, you probably shouldn't. (Although there are build orders floating around if you want them, and Nony made some FPVods.) In this case, you should be able to roll your opponent's nat and contain him, whether or not you cut probes, provided you don't lose your reaver. Play it safe and keep your reaver with the army. Expand when you have the money without cutting probes or dragoons (and without getting supply stuck). There's no particular hurry - you're not going to let him expand, so you're not economically behind - but there's also no reason to delay overmuch. If your opponent doesn't have a highly defensible ramp, you can almost certainly just kill him outright, but playing it safe and expanding is still a good habit. | ||
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ToyotaDemon
Australia150 Posts
If you are feeling faggy, you can feign an attack on the natural/cannon line with your units and then drop your reaver in the base and catch him off-guard and score some major probe kills because if he saw you moving towards his natural, he will immediately move all his units to the cannons to hold it. I like playing with dts in PvP, but it does score you some losses because 2 gate goon with robo, the most common PvP build does directly counter fast dt into fe. But then you have fast templars to play with = ] In conclusion, 2 gate goon robo > dt fe, just nullify his dts and attack towards his base ;D | ||
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fseer
United States13 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
With the bisu rep it was past 7:50 when he first attacked with reaver and he expoed at ~7:30. When both the attack and expo are this late, going reaver in this case is simply not worth it. Better to just grab expo quicker. But, he planned to go reave from the start and was stuck with one option. But, his build could have been a bit more efficient. Testie was ahead a bit after the reaver attack even though he made too many cannons. Long travel distance on that map makes dt a good choice. On a normal travel distance map reaver is still questionable choice. It means youll have ~1min later expo rather than just going goon, so you have to make that up at least with reaver. But, again, you will usually choose to reaver or not before you know they have dt, so you are pretty much stuck in your choice. Not a huge difference between builds anyway. As for followup, bisu did it fine. Reaver to main or nat depends alot on map. For blitz x its hard to get to main min without being seen far away, also have to travel pretty far to fly out of main. Take 2nd asap. Take 3rd as map allows. layout of blitz x makes for quick 3rd. Keep pumping probes until saturation and tech archives also. Make sure to look out for quick dt/ht drops. You will both end up with big armies and economy...and hopefully you have more...thats about it. | ||
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DarthThienAn
United States2734 Posts
It should be really hard to lose if you go 2gate reaver versus 1-2gate dt expand (presumably 1 if the expo is as fast as you're implying?). The 2gate DT build will expand around the same time you would get your 1st reaver, maybe 2nd, which is about when you should normally expand with that build. 2 gate robo, you use your obs to scout and see whether or not it's safe to expand, and this scouting info usually comes after your 1st reaver, sometimes second. So regardless, your expansion shouldn't be that far behind his. Anyway, the expansion isn't even necessary. Wait for your 1st reaver, maybe your 2nd if you're for some reason feeling really defensive, and attack. Think about it - he went dts, and you have obs, so the dts are essentially zealots, but a bit stronger. Slow zealots in pvp hardly ever get more than 1 shot off on a midgame goon count. So the DTs, depending on how many there are, will die without doing their money's worth of damage. Not to mention you have a reaver (or two). They pwn, and your opponent shouldn't really have goons to snipe effectively (unless u let 2+ dts reach the reaver..in which case you use the shuttle. Main point: You should have a bigger army and more firepower. 1a2a, drop reaver, and win. | ||
KwarK
United States43802 Posts
They can also abuse dts extensively vs a reaver opening (as opposed to a mass dragoon one). A good trick is to hide a dt at their nat and the moment they push out go up into their main. If they're going reavers then the chances are they put 1 ob on the ramp, made 2 reavers then pushed while starting a 2nd ob. That gives you a timing window to eco fuck them, or to buy time if they notice. Another great trick is walling their ramp with a spare dt if they have their min line covered. Robo time is expensive so they won't have too many obs now. If their dragoon rally point doesn't reinforce then that delays their push timing and gives you time to build up ht numbers. Ideally from this situation they'll either push and fail or contain and expand. Often you'll see a fast dt drop. You should respond by rushing a robo and going into storm drops while camping and massing zealots and dragoons. Your first 8 or so ht will be building up a lot of energy which is basically free units, getting them early is really quite valuable. You then smash out and lolwin with constant zealot archon reinforcements. So, as the Protoss fighting against dt openings. Don't let them do that I guess. | ||
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fseer
United States13 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/34929_BeSt_vs_Shuttle but no VOD Also kwark, how would you go about preventing that build, it seems difficult on some maps (such as desitnation) to push with 1 or 2 reavers or out expand the dt protoss, is there certain maps that dts would be better? if yes, what maps? i guess i can think that python would be a bad map vs a map like matchpoint would be better? | ||
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